What's so "Progressive" About Progressive Metal?

[Rusty Bucket]

Why will they never be art?

At the most basic level, process and how it is perceived is what differentiates popular music from art music.

Who gets to decide that?

The people whose opinions matter in a particular culture.

Well, i percieve metal to be art. Other people i know do as well. Are our opinions invalid? Are we not a part of a particular culture?

Your opinions aren't invalid outright, they're just not important enough to leave a significant mark on Western culture's attitudes towards what is deemed art music and what is popular music.

Although, it is fairly obvious to anyone who is even somewhat informed on the topic of musicology that metal is about as far as it gets from what is considered art music in the West.

I realise that it's very different to what is generally accepted as art in the west, but does that stop it from being art? Surely if the majority of the people who listen to it agree that it is an art form, then it is.

 

[PlasticPorter]

Thank you lord! Someone who shares my opinion
whenever you ask some one who's into prog rock, post rock, or "hardcore" what type of music they like they act like they discovered the holy grail and get all up on the high and mighty steed of music genre superiority on you.
I play in a band in the DC area and I try to set up concerts a lot and whenever I try to get any of the above genres to play a show to anybody but the most hardcore fans of that genre they use this excuse, "we're too hardcore" or "they just won't get it man"
GET WHAT!? the fact that your head's stuck up your ass? Your too hardcore? For WHAT?! I swear you could set up a show in a BDSM parlor and they'd say "we're too hardcore."

Music is music is music, if someone doesn't LIKE the same type of music as you it might not mean that there some sort of sub-human creature; it might just mean they like something different than you so don't be a dick about your music.

 

[Rusty Bucket]

I realise that it's very different to what is generally accepted as art in the west, but does that stop it from being art?

Considering art is defined by what is culturally accepted, yes actually.

Surely if the majority of the people who listen to it agree that it is an art form, then it is.

Fans of a style of music, especially one that is about as close to popular music as it gets and has a demographic made up of young white males, are always looking for a way to validate their taste by elevating their music beyond what it actually is. It's something rockists *love* to do without even realizing why they do it.

When it comes to determining what is art music and what is not, it doesn't matter what the majority of fans of metal (who make up a tiny percentage of the general population anyway) think about the genre. Because of the reasons above, they're obviously going to say it's art, but that's about as meaningless of a judgment as it gets.

Clearly you're far more intelligent than me. I surrender. I am still going to insist it's art though, i don't care what the high and mighty god of western culture says.

 

[for great justice]

hey guys im new to forum.....ing. but i love metal of most kinds and i'd like to recommend Mastodon. particularly the song Capillarian crest, as with most progressive metal it may tak a lil bit to get used to but the wy they slide into different genres in one song i think makes this song count as progressive because they are literally progressing through genres. then again i may be wrong , just have a listen.

 

[Rusty Bucket]

Art (noun)- The quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.

Clearly you're far more intelligent than me. I surrender. I am still going to insist it's art though, i don't care what the high and mighty god of western culture says.

What is it about process in metal music which makes it art music for you exactly?

Art (noun)- The quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.

That is the definition of art. Since i find metal both beautiful and of more than ordinary significance, it is art to me. I don't belive that there are people who can say what is and isn't art, it's completely subjective.

 

[CoverYourHead]

I like progressive metal, some has classic instruments mixed in with the hardcore guitar and such, with the right band it can sound great. Also, in my experience, progressive metal bands have better singers, but that's my bias.

 

[Rusty Bucket]

That's not even close to what an actual functional meaning of art might be though.

I would much rather go with definition used by those who study how cultures and people determine something to be art rather than what a dictionary gives up as a shallow and superficial definition.

Alright then, what definition did you have in mind? Although i don't see what's wrong with that one, it's clearly the widely accepted definition of art.

 

[TerraMGP]

Eggo... I'm sorry I was going to let it go but I have to say this.

You need to grow up.

Classically trained or not its obvious you have this mentality where you feel you know what does and does not make music art. Its ALL art, you just don't consider it to be art or to have what you consider to be good structure. You may be classically trained and I may just be the sub-par wannabe bass player who likes Prog/power/folk metal but Even I know that a true musician can find beautiful, wonderful and laudable things in EVERY form of music.

As I said I know someone Training as a Musician who loves this music and has nothing bad to say about it. I know alot of people in fact who would easily consider it art. You say ohter peoples opinoins don't have enough weight, well neither does yours. Nightfall in middle earth is as much art as anything Beethoven produced. It may not be AS GOOD in some respects, or may not be what is CONSIDERED high art but to write it off for that is just willful prideful arrogance.

I trust that you know your craft Eggo, I just think you've let it go to your head a bit in dealing with your opinions and views.

 

[sallene]

I say to each his own, if you like it fine if you dont fine.


I fail to see what slamming other people's choices, likes and dislikes is going to accomplish other than letting a few select people get their ego stroked while mentally masturbating over the thread.

 

[Vortigar]

Before this thread I'd never heard of Prog Metal. Like Alex_P said on the previous page, it seems like they're taking their cues from Prog Rock (well, metal and sympho originated from prog so I should say they take more cues) and simply coating it with a heavier sound.

CoverYourHead:
Prog groups allow male singers to take center stage and do the kind of parts usually only reserved for women (the classical sounding ones). This makes it a lot easier for them to stand out.

Eggo:
You get me wondering about what you (and by extension musical scholars) think of the prog rock founders. Groups like King Crimson, Jetthro Tull (from which Tool derived its name if I'm not mistaken), Yes or Van Der Graaf Generator that went out to find a new sound and consequently rarely (Yes) or never (Crimso) had a popular single. Do they qualify as art music according to you? And how does Art Rock fit into all this? Or should we migrate this to PM's?

Your conversation partner is probably (please excuse me if I'm wrong here) reacting to your rather superior tone as much as the actual contents of your posts. Phrases like 'you people' or talking about a different meaning of art without in any way (however basically) specifying it. You don't have to explain everything, but your answers are far from forthcoming, even while you know you're talking to a layman in your particular field. (And don't start with me on the 'explanation would take too long' or 'you wouldn't understand it' angle, I can explain how a compiler works in basic terms without you having to read a shred of program code.)

edit: I think I've been proven right by the poster above me. You're not talking about his taste ('slamming it' even) at all but rather about the thinking (meta-thinking two or even three tiers) behind it.

aside:
This reminds me that I still have to check out the Mars Volta, talk about late to the scene on that one.

 

[TerraMGP]

Classically trained or not its obvious you have this mentality where you feel you know what does and does not make music art. Its ALL art, you just don't consider it to be art or to have what you consider to be good structure. You may be classically trained and I may just be the sub-par wannabe bass player who likes Prog/power/folk metal but Even I know that a true musician can find beautiful, wonderful and laudable things in EVERY form of music.

Why is it that people who don't understand art at all believe that only art music can have beautiful, wonderful, and laudable things?

The key thing you, and so many other rockists like yourself, don't realize, is that art music isn't necessarily better or worse than popular music. It's just different. Thus, there is no reason why so many of you have to strive to validate the music you listen to by pretending it's art music when it most definitely isn't.

It's just another manifestation of masking your own puerile insecurities by pretending to be part of something which is at the same time marginalized by the majority but also recognized by a small minority for its false pretensions of high art.

As I said I know someone Training as a Musician who loves this music and has nothing bad to say about it. I know alot of people in fact who would easily consider it art. You say ohter peoples opinoins don't have enough weight, well neither does yours. Nightfall in middle earth is as much art as anything Beethoven produced. It may not be AS GOOD in some respects, or may not be what is CONSIDERED high art but to write it off for that is just willful prideful arrogance.

You should try and learn the topic you're speaking about before you open your mouth, or in this case, start typing with your hands.

Besides, being trained as a musician doesn't even begin to help you understand what makes music music, or in this case, what makes certain kinds of music art music. I know plenty of classically musicians who go/went to some of the best conservatories in the world and are great performers, but their knowledge of musicology is only a little less shallow than people posting in this forum.

This conversation can't go anywhere if you lack the basic tools to understand the discussion at hand.

your right, I don't understand what your saying, but I understand that you are taking the 'scholar' thing way too far. Your nit picking over high-scholar details that mean nothing to the rest of humanity and going around saying 'This music is not art because blah blah blah or because these people don't consider it such'. Whatever tools your using to judge that I don't want them. If the its not art really is some obscure thing you learn after going to college and that apaprenlty even most musicians don't know then personally, I'm going to say it does not matter. Its just like whatever criteria renders a big black canvas in the Chicago is art. I don't care.

Progressive rock and metal bands try something new, They sound good and they evoke deep emotional responses. Putting any requirement on art beyond that is frankly silly.

 

[Rusty Bucket]

Classically trained or not its obvious you have this mentality where you feel you know what does and does not make music art. Its ALL art, you just don't consider it to be art or to have what you consider to be good structure. You may be classically trained and I may just be the sub-par wannabe bass player who likes Prog/power/folk metal but Even I know that a true musician can find beautiful, wonderful and laudable things in EVERY form of music.

Why is it that people who don't understand art at all believe that only art music can have beautiful, wonderful, and laudable things?

The key thing you, and so many other rockists like yourself, don't realize, is that art music isn't necessarily better or worse than popular music. It's just different. Thus, there is no reason why so many of you have to strive to validate the music you listen to by pretending it's art music when it most definitely isn't.

It's just another manifestation of masking your own puerile insecurities by pretending to be part of something which is at the same time marginalized by the majority but also recognized by a small minority for its false pretensions of high art.

As I said I know someone Training as a Musician who loves this music and has nothing bad to say about it. I know alot of people in fact who would easily consider it art. You say ohter peoples opinoins don't have enough weight, well neither does yours. Nightfall in middle earth is as much art as anything Beethoven produced. It may not be AS GOOD in some respects, or may not be what is CONSIDERED high art but to write it off for that is just willful prideful arrogance.

You should try and learn the topic you're speaking about before you open your mouth, or in this case, start typing with your hands.

Besides, being trained as a musician doesn't even begin to help you understand what makes music music, or in this case, what makes certain kinds of music art music. I know plenty of classically musicians who go/went to some of the best conservatories in the world and are great performers, but their knowledge of musicology is only a little less shallow than people posting in this forum.

This conversation can't go anywhere if you lack the basic tools to understand the discussion at hand.

What exactly is art music? I'm just saying that metal is art, i'm not saying it's art music, whatever the hell that is.

 

[TerraMGP]

I'm still here because I don't like it when people start the nitpicking and the condensation and all of that. It rubs me the wrong way and i find it hard to leave an argument after that. Its true, I don't care what you think but your attitude stinks. You talk about how its 'not art music' and everyone laughs and snickers like they are so much smarter and then shoo people away from the conversation without even trying to explain their positoin beyond 'you have not gotten enough education in the matter'.

This is not a Science, this is subjective. Its not like If I explained an ohm to you because an ohm is an ohm no matter what. Nature made it we define it. Maybe you guys are not meaning to, but yoru coming off as jerks who are just laughing at us because we didn't go to some obscure music class for our third year of college and get some professors opinions on the subject or read some book. You say we don't know the criteria and as such are just 'rabid fans' but have not even begun to give a comprehensive explanation of the criteria you are talking about and you may not mean it but you guys just come off as the run-of-the-mill recordstore jerks when you do it.

How about this. Why don't you give a semi-laypersons defenition of what makes art music art music and what does not. give us the objective framework you are using or at least a small fragment of it. If you would do THAT instead of simply saying 'well you guys don't understand' then things would all make alot more sense.