What's so "Progressive" About Progressive Metal?

[TerraMGP]

I'm still here because I don't like it when people start the nitpicking and the condensation and all of that. It rubs me the wrong way and i find it hard to leave an argument after that. Its true, I don't care what you think but your attitude stinks. You talk about how its 'not art music' and everyone laughs and snickers like they are so much smarter and then shoo people away from the conversation without even trying to explain their positoin beyond 'you have not gotten enough education in the matter'.

You've already demonstrated multiple times that you have not only have no interest but also no capacity to understand an explanation if I offered one to you.

This is not a Science, this is subjective. Its not like If I explained an ohm to you because an ohm is an ohm no matter what. Nature made it we define it. Maybe you guys are not meaning to, but yoru coming off as jerks who are just laughing at us because we didn't go to some obscure music class for our third year of college and get some professors opinions on the subject or read some book. You say we don't know the criteria and as such are just 'rabid fans' but have not even begun to give a comprehensive explanation of the criteria you are talking about and you may not mean it but you guys just come off as the run-of-the-mill recordstore jerks when you do it.

You're coming off as a jerk who enjoys being uneducated, ignorant, and making fun of those who are far more well read on certain topics than himself.

How about this. Why don't you give a semi-laypersons defenition of what makes art music art music and what does not. give us the objective framework you are using or at least a small fragment of it. If you would do THAT instead of simply saying 'well you guys don't understand' then things would all make alot more sense.

I'll try again but I have this feeling I'm wasting my time:

Art music is defined by its process and signified by a culture. Do I need to explain the idea of process or the idea of culture?

First off calling someone uneducated because they don't specialize specifically in your narrow topic is part of what I am talking about. Second your breif little explination means nothing. I am talking about posting the specific rules. What you have given with that little blurb is utter subjective crap. What you are more or less saying is 'its not on the list'. Produce Objective data or stop acting like Dr. Frasier Crane

 

[Rusty Bucket]

What exactly is art music? I'm just saying that metal is art, i'm not saying it's art music, whatever the hell that is.

Here are some great examples of art music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4TbrgIdm0E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tGA6bpscj8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU23LqQ6LY4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EXzfpS6WK4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPQU9Egoe2Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZpNazAVts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9pOq8u6-bA

And even though these songs use instruments often associated with art music, they are still examples of popular music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IrWyZ0KZuk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zSONEoJv18

Right, from what i understand by that post, art music is a specific genre. I'm not making out that metal is art music, just that it's an art form. Also, by you seperating art music and popular music, it seems that popular music cannot be art music, which seems stupid.

 

[Maet]

This is not a Science, this is subjective.

Produce Objective data or stop acting like Dr. Frasier Crane

A simple definition and youtube videos to back it up. I don't think an explanation could be any simpler than that.

Eggo must have the patience of a saint.

 

[TerraMGP]

This is not a Science, this is subjective.

Produce Objective data or stop acting like Dr. Frasier Crane

A simple definition and youtube videos to back it up. I don't think a definition could be any simpler than that.

Eggo must have the patience of a saint.

Those Youtube videos do not back up a thing. He has not given specific, Objective criteria for these choices and the reasoning behind it. I don't care what videos he posts if you don't have a framework in place and reasoning behind that framework that is at least somewhat defined then its all pointless. He didn't even bother explaining WHY those songs are art music.

You know what I'm done. Eggo has no Objective reasoning to give. hes using his BS Degree to try and talk down to people and boost his ego. He has no real objective reason to call one set of music art and another not and he simply wants to look like he knows something that he obviously does not.

I may not study music, but I know a crap argument when I see it. Have fun convincing yourself that the rest of the world consists of uneducated scum not worthy to lay their eyes upon you.

 

[TerraMGP]

Those Youtube videos do not back up a thing. He has not given specific, Objective criteria for these choices and the reasoning behind it. I don't care what videos he posts if you don't have a framework in place and reasoning behind that framework that is at least somewhat defined then its all pointless. He didn't even bother explaining WHY those songs are art music.

All those pieces were created with process, not consumption, in mind and are/were culturally signified as art music. Like it or not, the concept of process and cultural signification is about as objective as it gets in the social sciences.

I feel that if you truly were capable of understanding this discussion, I wouldn't need to keep explaining why those pieces are examples of art music.

you have not explained a damn thing. Not given any real data. You don't want to debate, you want to talk down to people over something subjective. have fun.

 

[TerraMGP]

you have not explained a damn thing. Not given any real data. You don't want to debate, you want to talk down to people over something subjective. have fun.

I'm guessing they don't teach you kids much about anthropology or other social sciences in middle school, eh?

You have not GIVEN any specific Anthropological Criteria. You have not specifically sited instances of what makes the music artistic. You have spouted one small definition over and over.

Art is not a pysical science of any sort. It is created though physical interactions but its perception is not governed by anything more than brain chemestry and thats not what you are arguing on. you have not given real lists of data for specific songs or genres and why it is that they are considered to be art, you have not listed the judging criteria for this or even who it is that is supposed to judge. You haven't given any reasoning at all. You simply spout off about how its some exact process and then fail to explain the rules governing it or the procedure for difining it. I'm an engineer, I want data. I'm an engineer, I am not going to put up with 'well I went to these clases' or 'its rooted in anthropology. Objective data and Criteria for these judgments or GTFO

 

[Rusty Bucket]

What exactly is art music? I'm just saying that metal is art, i'm not saying it's art music, whatever the hell that is.

Here are some great examples of art music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4TbrgIdm0E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tGA6bpscj8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU23LqQ6LY4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EXzfpS6WK4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPQU9Egoe2Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZpNazAVts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9pOq8u6-bA

And even though these songs use instruments often associated with art music, they are still examples of popular music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IrWyZ0KZuk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zSONEoJv18

Right, from what i understand by that post, art music is a specific genre. I'm not making out that metal is art music, just that it's an art form. Also, by you seperating art music and popular music, it seems that popular music cannot be art music, which seems stupid.

I'm quoting this because i want it answered. Please lets not argue like children, i was trying to have a genuine discussin with eggo here.

 

[TerraMGP]

Is this your attempt at "stepping up" your game?

It's cute, really it is.

:lol:

Its what I have been saying the whole time.

Terra: Perhaps if you give the rules and criteria by which you claim progressive rock is not art then we could discuss this more.

Eggo: Art is difined by the culture it is in

Terra: Ok, so what are the criteria for this definition. what are the rules, the regulations. How do you decide what the culture has deemed art?

Eggo: You idiot, I already told you its difined by culture

Terra: I know. but if you asked what an Ohm was and all I told you was 'A unit of resistance' that gives you absolutely nothing to work with as you do not, in this hypothetical scenario, know what resistance is to define it.

Eggo: Haha you see? your an idiot. You don't understand.

Terra: no, I don't. I spent my time learning a REAL science. Now please if your going to claim something has objective criteria and is not simply a matter of personal opinion give objective criteria for why that is. If you really know this grand secret to what makes art music then you should be able to outline it for the rest of us in clear and simple terms.

Eggo: see your stupid, why are you even arguing this

Do you SEE where the breakdown in communication is taking place? Give real data.

 

[Rusty Bucket]

This seems to have gotten slightly out of hand. I concede that metal is not 'art music', however i still say it is a form of art. Perhaps not by the standards of educated cultural type people, but it is according to the english dictionary.

 

[TerraMGP]

Neuroscience isn't a real science? Odd.

You're missing the point of anthropology and musicology every time you demand "real data."

Let's turn the tables for a little bit and maybe your little engineer brain might begin to comprehend why you're asking for something which by definition is irrelevant to this discussion.

This overturned toilet is art

Provide me with the objective data which says this is art.

By dictionary defenition its art. In someones subjective view it is beautiful and meaningful in some way meaning that it meets the OBJECTIVE criteria. That makes it art. I would personally argue that it is not in my opinion GOOD art but then that is why it is art and not science. It is not about pure and hard universal facts or even seeking such.

Your argument is subjective, it is personal. You are saying music is not art because some specific subset of people does not consider it such, but you won't even specify which subset of people. Progressive metal fits the dictionary defenition of art for some people making it art. I would equate Rap, Hip hop and Techno to that toilet art but they are still art as well.

As for your assesment that progressive rock and metal bands don't do something new, well you may or may not be right. Show me some example data and We will see. My point is that you are claiming a lack of understanding about what makes something art when art only has subjective criteria. Unless you provide me with a list of parameters I have to go with the dictionary definition of the parameter, which is subjective. HENCE why I asked for a list of criteria, because the acceptance by a culture or society thing is ridiculous. There is no universal defining factor to a subjective paramiter, thats why it is subjective.

 

[jezz8me]

Porcupine Tree.

Take a listen and tell me if you think it is progressive. Sure they are not THAT and could be described as just prog rock but some people don't call Dream Theatre Metal.

 

[zen5887]

So if art is related to culture (duhhh..) does that mean that Aussie festival culture can define art music? Because summer festivals are a pretty huge part of being Australian.

Or when you say culture do you mean (for the lack of a better term) 'snobby' people who only listen to classical and jazz and watch arthouse films and have dinner parties and stuff.

What about Gothic culture? Theres plenty of art based around that, why not music? Surely Gothic music has a pretty important roll in its culture?

Now I can already see whats going to happen. In your reply your going to tell me i'm idiot then prove me wrong using your many degrees and qualifications. In the end I wont really care and giggle at the last page and a half of this thread.

In the end I still love Prog, I listen to it because the dudes can play! Not because its super artist (which I think it is but whatever), defines culture or anything. I enjoy listening to it and I reaaaally couldn't care that a bunch of high class music snobs don't think its art.