Xenetethrae said:
DracoSuave said:
That would be great, if the "merit based" scholarships actually DID that. There's a trend towards neutralizing the race and gender bias from "merit based" scholarships, but until they do, it is currently a fact that more white males receive these scholarships than their representation in the general public. Basically, if (as someone claimed above) 42% of the population is a white male, then assuming all things being equal, 42% of scholarship winners should be white males, give or take within a margin of error.
"Assuming all things being equal" Yes they should. But things are never equal, so this argument is moot. Sorry, but in an inequal society, just because 42% of a population is a certain race does not mean 42% of merit scholarships should be of that same race. If merit scholarships worked like that, then they would be based on race which is what we are trying to avoid.
But as you said, all things are not equal. Your skin and gender make you statistically more likely to have a scholarship than anyone else. The number of scholarships available to you is less because of that. As you so rightly point out, things are not equal.
DracoSuave said:
This isn't the case however, and whether it is because of discrimination within the selection, or systemic discrimination that isn't the fault of the selectors, white males are, simply by being white males, more likely to get free money than other people.
Wrong and irrelevant. White males are only more likely to recieve merit scholarships because of differences in
culture or income (they are more likely to be of higher income which, in turn, may allow for them to recieve a better education or have more time to devote to learning etc...). And culture based scholarships? Really?
Saying I am wrong for citing systemic discrimination and then citing systemic discrimination means you didn't understand the point.
This is offset by NEED-BASED scholarships which help those with the greatest monetary need. White males usually recieve fewer need-based scholarships in proportion to their population than people of other racial backgrounds. Both merit and needs-based scholarship ignore race entirely, which means they are not racist. Maybe not equal, but they are fair.
And if it were the case that the two working in concert were sufficient to bring a proper equality to college membership, there would be no problem.
Obviously, this is not true. Obviously there is a problem.
DracoSuave said:
So this idea that there's some social justice inherent in a scholorship just for white males is being completely ignorant to the fact that many scholarships already do that, but simply don't state it.
See above, the disproportionately large amount of white males that can claim merit scholarships is offset by the disproportionately small amount of scholaships they can claim based on need. Saying a merit scholarship is racist because a greater percentage of a certain race earned the scholarship then is present in the population is ridiculous! (The scholarship related to the OP, however is undeniably racist)
How is it rediculous if it can be demonstrated that being a white male means that you are more likely to recieve one of those scholarships than not? It's not rocket science. Get a list of applicants, look at gender, look at race, done. If you have, say, 42% of applicants being white males, and 82% of winners being white males, it's hard to make a case that there isn't an advantage for white males. When this sort of thing occurs across many scholarships, that's a trend you can point to and say 'Look, this is what is happening.'
My point isn't that these applicants don't deserve their scholarships, but that there is a systemic discrimination in place, and that countermeasures need to be put in to make the situation fair for those who don't have the first name John or the last name Smith.
You have three options at this point:
A: You remove the systemic factors leading to this discrimination (which involves completely rewriting the education system from the ground up, from kindergarten into college itself, as well as addressing racial poverty issues)
B: You restrict existing scholarships so that white males are discriminated against by the system
C) You create new scholarships designed to stem the tide of the imbalance.
You cannot actually accomplish A without solving the problem of education so while an ideal situation, it is not feasible. B is bad, because it cuts existing money off from people who actually do merit it, which leaves C, which is where you have racially based scholarships. It's not the most ideal solution, but the ideal solution is unworkable. So you have to go to a second plan, so to speak.
The whites-only scholarship isn't designed to address a small inequality, while ignoring the whole point and bigger picture. It is NOT a necessary change to make, it isn't acting out any social justice. If they really wanted to make things equal, they would take that money, and start investing in the community in such a way that race-based scholarships are no longer necessary.
You'll find, that's not their agenda.
DracoSuave said:
Seriously tho, if you're a white male complaining about being 'disadvantaged'... go to hell. You're an self-entitled idiot who doesn't actually know how to leverage his own inherent advantage that society STILL gives you over everyone else in numerous subtle ways.
Calm down man, seriously, that's a rather big Soapbox you got there. I've said as much before: If any scholarships even look at race percentages as a factor then they are racially biased (aka racist). I
DISAGREE with white male only scholarships. I also disagree with any "one-race-only" scholarships as they are always racist.
The problem is, those other scholarships are necessary in order to solve a bigger problem of racism.
I would agree that they are racist, except for that to be true, you'd have to exist in a society where every race is equal in terms of their rights and their chances. That society does not exist. So if someone from a disadvantaged race wants a shot, they need to do something about it. It's racist in that it is trying to elevate a race, yes. But it's trying to elevate a race from disadvantaged status, rather than this scholarship which is simply reactionary ignorant bullshit.
Personal Note: I am a white male who applied for sevral merit scholarships and got none. I did not apply for any need based scholarships because I don't qualify. Several of my white friends do though and some of them recieved needs based scholarships. My girlfriend (who is white and not male in case you were wondering) recieved buckets of scholarships. My black friend (cause every white guy has one black friend. Funny joke haha) recieved more scholarships than me and my girlfriend combined. Why? My gf and I had way higher gpas than him and I might have more money than him but my gf sure doesn't. The sheer number of "one-race-only" scholarships is staggering in some places. Especially when, to me, it seems like they award those with the only requisite being "not white". Ergo, I, along with many others, am frustrated with this system.
Anecdote is not the singular form of data. I do understand your frustration, but look at it this way.... as you put it, you don't have 'need.' You have an advantage out of the gate.
Look, I'm not going to bore you with details, but the fact remains, if you have the name 'John' or such, you are more likely to be selected for and receive money than if you have the name 'Shaniqua.' There is racism inherent in every aspect of life. People can and will discriminate against you because of your race based on your resume and having never seen the color of your skin. Studies have shown this.
I'm not going to downplay your personal frustration, but that's just it; it's personal. It doesn't look at the big picture, which is you didn't get money because you needed less money. That's why. Nothing else.
