Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?

[Madara XIII]

But..

It's easy,
Because, feminists and douche bags don't like female gamers. There's this stereotype that woman don't play games and I got to say, both party's are pretty guilty. I'm sure there are those woman who are, "above" gaming and don't believe women should be wasting their time on a console, and then there are the inbred retards who everyone else have touched on.

And yet here I am, a feminist and a gamer. According to your logic, I should hate myself, right? Am I like one of those starburst contradictions?

Indeed ya are Lassy

Nah JK, made me laugh at his faulty logic

<youtube=o3GHYPUiNwg>

 

[MasterChief892039]

(which is a huge problem with feminist-minded women).

You have the right to your opinion, but please refrain from being patronizing if you want to have a real discussion.

As I said, it's not that games are "geared towards males" and thus most game players are men, it's that most game players are men in the first place and thus you get a characteristically male product.

It isn't as simple as "cause and effect", it's more of a "vicious circle". Gaming was pioneered by men, meaning that men were the first to create video games and therefore created them based on their own (fairly male) interests. This got more men gaming who created more games for men, which kept more men gaming... etc. Eventually this lead to the stereotype of the male gaming nerd and the belief that video games are masculine by nature.

Most gamers are men, so you get mostly male products. Most products are male so you get mostly men gaming.

However, as games evolve, there's no reason the industry shouldn't expand to encompass a larger audience, just as film did. The largest problem right now is that the industry is still fairly young, and we all know that human society is afraid of new things.

Hollywood production studios can reliably predict who'll turn out to see a film because certain genres, for whatever reasons, just don't appeal to women (and games themselves are really more like a niche film genre rather than an entire categorically different line of industry). Efforts to "reach out" to women in films and games are crippled at the offset because

Just because gaming is less publicly accepted ("niche") doesn't mean it doesn't draw parallels to film, particularly in the case of narrative games. I'm also curious why you think that the movie industry fails at marketing to women. While I personally don't enjoy the types of movies that are targeted at women, the sales numbers for movies like "Twilight" or "Eat Pray Love" don't lie. Movies and games are entertainment, simple as. If film entertainment can be marketed toward women, why not games?

There is nothing about using a controller that is inherently gendered. The fact that approximately 40% of gamers are female is a testament to this fact. Women are not opposed to interactive entertainment, what they are put off by are certain genres of that interactive entertainment and the "maleness" of most triple A games.
And it's true that certain genres of Hollywood movie don't appeal to women, but I never argued that they did - my point was that the movie industry has genres that appeal to men, and genres that appeal to women, respectively. Narrative games, however, are made exclusively with the male gamer in mind. Do you really think the reason women don't play these sorts of games is because they're put off by the interactive aspect of the hobby, the "gaming"? Or because those games are catered to men, and have nothing to offer women who aren't already interested in games?

Is it a coincidence that the only game I've ever gotten my non-gaming female friends interested in is Dragon Age, a game that allows you to play as a woman and explore a relationship with/have sex with a man?
Obviously anecdotal evidence isn't as powerful as statistics, but you can see from this thread that although female gamers are a minority, their numbers are still apparently large enough for Bioware to feel it's worth catering to them.[footnote]"We have good numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar sorts of content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant..."[/footnote]
Mind you, those numbers could be skewed by male gamers who played as a woman and/or chose male romance options for the sake of the achievement, but the same could be said the other way around with females who played as men and/or romanced women for the sake of the achievement (I know I made a male character so I could get Morrigan in bed for that reason).


The point is, more women would play games if there were games designed for them. Obviously it wouldn't happen overnight - as a culture we still have to overcome the looming stereotypes that video games are "evil", "violent", "for children", "for men", or "for nerds" before women (or non-gaming men) will consider it as a legitimate pass time.

There is also an obstacle in the fact that women who grew up not playing games are not likely to start playing them simply because they're not versed in the language of gameplay and therefore find it frustrating, but this is true of non-gaming men too - Case in point.

The fact that there are games like these out there -

Spoiler

means that more young women are growing up with gaming conventions as a second language... however, if games made for girls drop off at around the 10-12 year mark, it won't really be that surprising if women stop gaming once they reach adulthood, will it?

But let's finish off your post.

women are psychosexually inclined towards intrigue, social interaction, a use of sex appeal and submissiveness.

You know, you should really write a book.

This is why Ripley in Alien was really just a man in drag (and one should note that women still weren't enthused over the film).

I'm sorry, but this is utter bull-crap. Ripley is a man in drag because why? She takes charge, which is for some reason a "masculine" trait?
She's also driven by her maternal desire to protect Newt and shows a ton of fear and vulnerability, but I guess the fact that she fought a couple aliens automatically makes her a man.

Spoiler: This is how Ripley would have handled the situation if she were a REAL woman.

Ultimately this confusion of cause and effect is why the world goes on without any of this stuff making any difference. At heart, these women are demanding respect so that they can express themselves as full-bodied, personable and likable people. It never seems to strike them that perhaps if they became likable people first, the respect they supposedly want would follow.

Ridiculous generalizations, and what does this have to do with women in games/movies?

Spoiler: holy bazonkers batman

 

[Madara XIII]

Oh man, ive been running into this alot. Some people HATE when females actually do things like grown ups.


Theres this one video on youtube, about how this one guy looks like a girl, so when he talks some guys actually tell him he needs to be quiet and hes being a ***** for saying something. And he correctly points out how thats dumb, girls are allowed to talk, duh.

The comments are ASTOUNDING "HOW DARE YOU, YOU HATE ALL MEN! YOU WANT TO DESTROY MEN! ARRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHH! ARRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
amazing.

Have you ever seen someone melt into a viscous puddle of laughter, slowly flowing out of their chair onto the floor and waking up the entire house with peals of hyena giggles?

Because your description of the commenters just made me do that.

LMAO you're post following his made me do the same thing XD

Great comeback. But honestly I really think that dude has as much validity as Babe Ruth's drivers license. I think that in some circles (some I've been in) we will tell a guy to shut up or he's being a "*****" if he's whining too much.

What he did was demonize it.

 

[Chemical Alia]

I think I've witnessed more angry nerds who claim to have been personally offended by brutal feminazis in this thread alone than the amount of actual feminazis I've encountered in my entire life. Something about nerd/gamer culture and attitudes just isn't very hospitable towards females in general or sympathetic to feminist concerns.

That said, womens' rights organizations and feminists flipping their shit over DNF is kind of hilarious.

Besides, women get their panties in a twist over damn near every female character that is hotter than they will ever be. How many times you heard a dude ***** because the male protagonist is a walking slab of muscle instead of a glasses wearing, unkempt, cheeto covered, fat bastard?

I don't think so. I have absolutely no problem with hot female characters in games. It's just the lack of variety and redundancy of sexy woman after sexy woman that leads to boredom with female characters, at least for me. Male characters are retardedly stereotyped as well, but on the whole you still see way more variation in body types, age, even personality in games.

I'm all for keeping all the sexy characters you want, but I'd simply like to see more archetypes represented as well to fill things out better.

It isn't as simple as "cause and effect", it's more of a "vicious circle". Gaming was pioneered by men, meaning that men were the first to create video games and therefore created them based on their own (fairly male) interests. This got more men gaming who created more games for men, which kept more men gaming... etc. Eventually this lead to the stereotype of the male gaming nerd and the belief that video games are masculine by nature.

Most gamers are men, so you get mostly male products. Most products are male so you get mostly men gaming.

However, as games evolve, there's no reason the industry shouldn't expand to encompass a larger audience, just as film did. The largest problem right now is that the industry is still fairly young, and we all know that human society is afraid of new things.

True this. I hope that as more women start playing games, especially ones they're not the target audience of, we'll also start to see greater numbers of women involved in the development of games as well. At my studio of 200+, I think we have two female artists, and I'm the only one on my team (though we recently got a female art producer). When I was at id, I was the only female artist, period, and I think they only had like one other female dev outside of QA/HR.

 

[Mikeyfell]

"Pre-owned games! cheaper than new games..."
I get that they shouldn't alienate female gamers but that just doesn't have the same punch to it.

I think the point of the female employee was that she would get sacked if she behaived in a sexist manner so why is the advertising section exempt. I think that's a fair point.

The sexism isn't in the joke really its the inference that women don't play games, which was backed up by the guy from the company saying 'Oh lulz we are allowed to be sexist becuase women are in the minority' Guy was an ass end of story. There are plenty of ways you can sell a game without bringing sexism into it.

Would the same female employee have been offended if the add said "Cheaper than your boyfriend" or "used games are cheaper than if a single man decided to eat at a fancy restaurant then go see a movie all alone." or "Cheaper than treating your platonic gender neutral friend to a free meal." Or even "Cheaper than a pricey internet pron subscription"

I think she saw the add and took it personally, "I don't want people to think I'm more expensive and less fun than Call of Duty Black Ops, I'm going to get that add taken down."

I mean seriously.
What the fuck is that. No guy wants to be compared to Isaiah Mustafa. But nobody cried foul and tried to get that add taken down on account of it being sexist.

 

[theultimateend]

Because being a sexist douchebag is fun.
Look at Duke Nukem, case and point.

It's not that people are against gender neutrality, gender diversity is just more fun.

I thought the point of duke was to basically experience a full blown parody of something folks try to make seem reasonable.

As for the OP I didn't realize such a thing existed.

But I don't tend to look around for gender, any trait that a person cannot control is not interesting to me in terms of the character as a whole.

Personal feelings at least.

What the fuck is that. No guy wants to be compared to Isaiah Mustafa. But nobody cried foul and tried to get that add taken down on account of it being sexist.

I would. I imagine the mere comparison would get the blood boiling of the nearby females :O!

That is one annoyingly sexy man.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

@JohnMarcone I'm sorry I don't see how women are attacking Call of Duty? did I miss something?

If you referring to the advertisement issue that that's not really the same is it. I don't have any issue with call of duty in fact that's why I'm insulted by a poster that pretty much says I don't like it. Also in your logic we are only allowed to complain about things that are made for us in the first place that's a pretty strange thing to say. That's like saying Rosa Parks can say what she likes as long as she stays at the back of the bus.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

@Mikeyfell.
Most American's don't understand that advertisment. In England cheap = ho it's basically saying your girlfriend is a cheap ho but this game is even cheaper. Like a detergent ad would say 'it's brighter than white'. That's pretty offensive to even the guy buying it.

The problem isn't the ad it's the fact that when someone complained about it Gamestation went 'Oh sorry its a male demographic that means we are allowed to be offensive.' If thier main demographic was white does that mean they can be racist?

As for the Old Spice advert you could argue that's pretty offensive to women as it paints them as shallow and money grabbing.

 

[t3h br0th3r]

I think we need to define some terms here.


Feminist- someone who believes in equality between men and women. Dudes, such as myself, can fall into this category.

Femanazi- a walking feminist stereotype. they are the women who get pissed when you open a door for them and think house wives are some kind of vagina-traitor.

 

[DementedSheep]

While men are still refused monetary support and encouragement to become primary carers we still need feminism.

... You do realise feminism is about women right? Stop trying to claim other issues are feminist issues.

Feminism is about gender and not just about women. And frankly I think they should be fighting these issues or else be massive hypocrites.

No feminism is about woman?s rights specifically hence the name. It has nothing to do with men?s rights. Yes you would be a massive hypocrite if you wanted woman to have the same opportunities as men and not the other way around but that does not change the fact that men?s rights are not actually part of feminism. A guy who wants equal rights on parenting issue is not a feminist.

 

[angelsmash]

MasochisticMuse, you've misunderstood a great deal of what I wrote. My point wasn't that the movie (or the video game) industry fails to market to women - if anything, it's immensely adept at marketing to women. The failure lies in the attempts to get women to buy games by pushing sassy female protagonists into stories where their sex is either peripheral or terribly unrealistic. It's a lot like the mistake amateur marketers make in thinking that kids want to see other kids in films, as though simply having child protagonists is enough to sway them. But kids don't dream of being the doofus who played Anakin in the prequels: their hero figures are Luke, Han, etc. Similarly, women - and you have to put aside your own experiences and preferences to accept this - are largely uninterested in women taking traditionally male roles or acting masculine in video games (or films for that matter).

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

And as much as I fucking LOVE that remark about Rosa Parks (which I will use in the future because its hilarious) you did not just compare a form of entertainment with being treated as a second class citizen in every aspect of your life...

Well the reason I referenced Rosa Parks is because you said that we should keep to our own little area and not make a fuss. Which brought the bus issue to mind. Not so much the civil rights = gamin industry, which would be silly.

I am a female gamer and I don't have a problem with Duke Nukem. I think it's pretty funny and for a muscly guy (which I usually find a turn off) I think he's cute The chauvenism in that is a joke, a parody. It's a good thing in fact becuase it ridicules that idea. I kind of like the idea of babes instead of flags. I like men fighting over me (teehee) I think your making a big assumption that women gamers have a problem with it? Most threads I have seen most women thinkign its lol worthy.

Oh you know what would be fun...let someone play as the babe and try to escape back to thier base that would be AWESOME. I would love that xD.

 

[kathleenb]

Ah, yes. I forgot, Feminism is an Evil Monolith. All Feminists want... something. Here's the deal: Not all feminists are alike. Very few actually hate all men and everything men do. Many feminists distrust men (see Schrodinger's Rapist [http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/08/terrible-bargain-we-have-regretfully.html] from Shapely Prose for a couple of thoughts).

Maybe we could think about why feminism is perceived as such a dirty word (hint: it has very little to do with the feminist movement or it's general goals) and why women might not think that gaming is a welcoming environment (do I really need to give you a hint?)

 

[Asuka Soryu]

Sort of this. Alot of game developers are more concerned with the male audience, as it's more of a larger audience, wich means more money.

So sexist imagery and humour is applied.

 

[Tsaba]

It's easy,
Because, feminists and douche bags don't like female gamers. There's this stereotype that woman don't play games and I got to say, both party's are pretty guilty. I'm sure there are those woman who are, "above" gaming and don't believe women should be wasting their time on a console, and then there are the inbred retards who everyone else have touched on.

And yet here I am, a feminist and a gamer. According to your logic, I should hate myself, right? Am I like one of those starburst contradictions?

Edit: Because I'm too damn tired to format properly.

Not all feminists are created equal... maybe I should of put some.... meh, whatever, it will make for interesting reading in the morning.

 

[angelsmash]

"Schrodinger's Rapist"? Is that seriously real? Does this chick have a panic attack if she sees the Mr. Clean logo in a detergents aisle?

 

[Venereus]

"Pre-owned games! cheaper than new games..."
I get that they shouldn't alienate female gamers but that just doesn't have the same punch to it.

I think the point of the female employee was that she would get sacked if she behaived in a sexist manner so why is the advertising section exempt. I think that's a fair point.

The sexism isn't in the joke really its the inference that women don't play games, which was backed up by the guy from the company saying 'Oh lulz we are allowed to be sexist becuase women are in the minority' Guy was an ass end of story. There are plenty of ways you can sell a game without bringing sexism into it. Also Gamestation is a dive so I feel the lack of caring.

There are also plenty of ways you can interpret an ad without reading sexism between the lines. What's implied is not that women don't play games, is that women don't play CoD (or don't have girlfriends; wich is damnable, but not the point you're making). Women who do play CoD are a most likely a small minority, and therefore a neglectable number when designing a targeted ad campaign. You can doubt these assumptions all you want, but if I ask you to bet your money on it, what would you do? Seriously, that girl was in the wrong.

This is a sexist ad:

Cunning but still sexist. It's saying not all women cook, but it's mainly saying boobs are a valid replacement when it comes to men's evaluation. Objectifying women to sell to women who then objectify themselves, ugh.

This is a non-sexist ad for a similar product:

See? It's saying that women practice sports, and giving a practical, reasonable argument for buying them.

This is what the Gamestation employee did, from a male perspective using the above ads as inspiration, and hyperbole for the lulz:

"OMG! I'm so offended because the advertisers didn't consider the almost non-existent minority of bra-wearing-men with this oh so sexist ad!"

And that's not even considering the fact that the girl's argument was based on her misinterpreting the ad's message as "women are cheap" instead of "having a girlfriend is expensive, get your fun from playing CoD instead, it's cheaper". Even if you come up with a convoluted reasoning for the ad's actual message still turning into "women are cheap", I'd find it very hard to believe that's what the ad intended us to think.

I call BS, attention whoring, and shamelessly shelding behind real feminism on that girl. Don't support her.

 

[kathleenb]

EDIT: off topic and not very nice. going to bed now.