Why are people upset about no females in Brink, but not COD, Battlefield, or MoH

[Arctarus'sCookie]

I think this really shows where the gaming medium stands on a maturity standpoint. If we're at the "No girls allowed" mentality how are we ever going to get viewed or thought of as a real art? (Even though this is still being accomplished in America) This should inspire all of the future gaming directors to end gaming's sexism and female objectification. Or at least it does for me anyways.

Off topic: I thought of this entire comment with the guy from Extra Credits' voice.

 

[Sudenak]

For starters, I look at games like CoD and see that they have very specifically targeted men. They're not trying to be equal, they're trying very desperately to appeal to men. Just like how I don't get all torn up inside at Duke Nukem.

Brink just looks generic. And when it starts cutting corners in customization for no purpose besides saving time on modeling, then it does even less to impress me. I don't even particularly enjoy playing female, but it's nice to have the option. Especially when there's multiplayer involved. Hell, even Tony Hawk Underground allowed you to pick a female character. It's been pretty standard amongst non-awful game series for a while.

Although it can be argued heavily that some of your examples have a few time periods where women weren't allowed to serve in the army because we're soft and delicate flowers. Furthermore, even now we're not allowed out on the front line, so it is accurate to not have a female playable character in most war games. But this is set in some kind of fantasy location in the future. So, what, women aren't allowed to join the resistance or fight to defend? Sort of paints a bleak future for women where we never surpass our modern rights.

 

[TheIronRuler]

But I'm not upset!
I don't care!
I might pick up Brink if I have the time and energy from a friend, but I usually avoid buying these games that include guns and first person views even since I was traumatized by the Call of Duty franchise slow and painful demise.

 

[Chemical Alia]

Spoiler

Hey, let's put this here so the feminists in the other thread don't find it!

Seriously though (and apart from the historical/'realistic' nature of the games mentioned), those of us who are angry/disappointed with Brink are pissed off about the representation of women in games in general. Seriously, the problem is this:

(Male, the FPS default)

This is the main problem. There is no reason for games to buy into this. (If you look on the other thread, a large part of the people who don't object to the exclusion of women are saying "but we would play it if it had women/androgynous humanoids/&c.", so presumably including women isn't going against the tastes of those people. And given that game developers can write about whatever universe they want, there is no reason for the story/game universe to be male dominated.) To treat male as default is to treat women as a variation; men as people, women as other.

As to why Brink has recieved such vitriol? It is a particularly egregious example of the trend. The reason that these customisation options are so extensive is to make each player's avatar unique. The developers stated that this was so that no two players would look the same--implying that each avatar was in some sense yours. So by not including female models, the developers essentially placed greater importance on the cut and colour of the shirts than they did a whole gender. Basically, the message this sends is 'Sorry ladies but you're just not that important.'

Last time I checked, You couldn't play a female character in CoD, you could play a female character in Battlefield Bad Company 2 (and it doesn't look like there will be females in BF3 either), and you can't play a female in Medal of Honor.

Honestly, of all the excuses for sexism in games, this is the worst. 'Other games exclude women, so this one should be allowed to also.' No. Brink does not get a free pass on this shit, just because of the bullshit other games have pulled.

I agree with everything stated above. Depending on how much a game intends to preserve "historical" accuracy, the inclusion of women may make more or less sense. I see no reason to shoehorn a gender in a setting only for pc's sake, but the argument that "other fpss don't include women, so why should any" is a rather shameful one.

I see it as a great missed opportunity where female character designs could have been explored and impemented in unique and stylish ways. I don't buy the devs' explanations, and see it as an extreme cop out. If planned properly from the start, females most certainly could have been added, if they truly wanted to. I would have been less disappoimted if they gave no excuse at all, to be honest.

When people ask me why I'm perfectly ok with DNF and looking forward to it, I explain that it's when the sexism is passive and expressed through the developers' process and approach/intent that it begins to bother me. Ultimately, it's their game and they're free to make it however they want, but I'm frere to be of the opinion that poor choices were made that let me down.

(sorry for any typos, right hand in giant cast and typing is a pain with one hand)

 

[Iwata]

Because believe it or not, there are female players out there who were originally excited about the game's promising "infinite customization (if by infinite you mean less than 50% of the human race)".

None of the other games mentioned promised a level of customization that it utterly fails to deliver as a major selling point.

 

[fletch_talon]

Well aren't the call of duty games set in a time where women wouldn't have been able to serve in front line combat (actually I think that's still the case).
And the Black Ops and Modern Warfare games are based on what I assume are various special forces groups. And if we don't let women on the front lines I can't imagine we let them into the elite "best of the best" groups.
Brink on the other hand seems to be completely fictional and thus has no excuse.

That and the immense focus on customisation.

 

[Dejawesp]

Because those games doesn't offer any customization of the characters visually in the first place.

 

[Mr.logic]

Because in Brink they are stressing character customizing.

CoD, you can customize your gun, and skills.

Battlefield, don't know haven't played it.

MoH, don't know haven't played it.

Also Brink takes place in the future, something not equal to CoD, MoH, and Battlefields realitic warzones.

Also your health is decided on how buff you are rather than how thick your armor is. I don't think they wanted a bunch of body builder women running around tea-bagging people.

 

[TJF588]

*skips replies* Because most military nuts are "manly men", but Brink is more fantastical. And besides, a girl in real-world uniform looks about the same, but then look at Borderlands. What would you, you manly man, rather stare at if the distinction is so glare-inducingly obvious.

...maybe.

 

[Grimfolse]

In COD, the emphasis of customization was always placed on the guns. That changed slightly in Blops, but not so much so that people would remember to care.
Brink is somewhat lauded for its character customization - so people thought it odd that you can't change the gender, the very first thing most female gamers would want to do.

There isn't that much fuss about it, really. More of a baffling observation.

I guess they thought that focusing 50% of their character sutomization feature for the 5% female gamers that play FPSs was not a good investment.

Got a source for that 5% statistic, or are you just making *expletive deleted* up?

 

[DustyDrB]

One of Brink's big selling points: Customization

The first step when you make a customizable character: What gender will I be?

The rebuttal: "If they made females, then they would have to double all their work"

The counter-rebuttal: "Missing an entire gender is a bigger mistake then missing a few shirts"

I'm not upset about this, as I probably won't even play the game. But it's very easy to see why some people are upset (to put it simply: Shirts > Women). And this is a long time coming. Female gamers are less and less of a minority every year, but are still under-represented. It might seem like a double-standard (and maybe it is), but criticism has to start somewhere. Really, I'm more confused that people don't understand this.

 

[RobJameson]

In Brink, I don't know why there are no female characters.

In COD/Battlefield/MoH - None of the military forces depicted in these games have women serving in front line roles. They want to be 'realistic' so that people can fap over playing soldier dress up so they are all manly men who kill aliens and don't afraid of anything.

Simple answer.

 

[Elamdri]

As to why Brink has recieved such vitriol? It is a particularly egregious example of the trend. The reason that these customisation options are so extensive is to make each player's avatar unique. The developers stated that this was so that no two players would look the same--implying that each avatar was in some sense yours. So by not including female models, the developers essentially placed greater importance on the cut and colour of the shirts than they did a whole gender. Basically, the message this sends is 'Sorry ladies but you're just not that important.'

You know, the thing is tho that Bethesda actually has some good reasons for not including women in the game. 1st, it's really time consuming and expensive to create a system like that for just one sex, and to do it with two (and to do it WELL) is even worse. Now, that alone, I would say is not enough to justify not including women. However, consider also 2nd, that it doesn't seem to fit with in the story of Brink that women play a frontline military role. I know that a few people in this thread have pointed that fact out about the three games I mentioned, but it's really no difference in Brink. Finally, there is a strong persuasive view in society that it's reprehensible to depict the killing of women and children, and to be honest, I somewhat agree. I certainly am always turned off whenever a movie, tv show, game, ect. kills female characters (Lets not even talk about how children have nigh immunity from harm in almost all media, and ESPECIALLY games). Whether or not that perception is RIGHT, it certainly does exist, and considering Bethesda is trying (I would assume) to make money off of Brink, it's likely that they would want to go to some lengths to avoid negative media exposure. Taken as a whole, it makes sense to me why they wouldn't include women.

Last time I checked, You couldn't play a female character in CoD, you could play a female character in Battlefield Bad Company 2 (and it doesn't look like there will be females in BF3 either), and you can't play a female in Medal of Honor.

Honestly, of all the excuses for sexism in games, this is the worst. 'Other games exclude women, so this one should be allowed to also.' No. Brink does not get a free pass on this shit, just because of the bullshit other games have pulled.

I wasn't saying that Brink should get a free pass, I was saying it doesn't to me at least, make sense to harp on Brink of all games. I'm saying if you're going to have a real conversation about gender in video games, don't make it just about Brink.

 

[loodmoney]

1st, it's really time consuming and expensive to create a system like that for just one sex, and to do it with two (and to do it WELL) is even worse.

Same [http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=2027]

[T]here is a strong persuasive view in society that it's reprehensible to depict the killing of women and children, and to be honest, I somewhat agree. I certainly am always turned off whenever a movie, tv show, game, ect. kills female characters (Lets not even talk about how children have nigh immunity from harm in almost all media, and ESPECIALLY games). Whether or not that perception is RIGHT, it certainly does exist, and considering Bethesda is trying (I would assume) to make money off of Brink, it's likely that they would want to go to some lengths to avoid negative media exposure.

Old [http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=1816]

t doesn't seem to fit with in the story of Brink that women play a frontline military role.

Spoiler: -Shit-

And given that game developers can write about whatever universe they want, there is no reason for the story/game universe to be male dominated.

Is there an explanation in the narrative of the game? I thought the setting was kind of a giant floating prison, which is male only could be wrong shall google it.

But if that is the case having female characters is plain wrong. Also the first two Gears games managed to make headway without female characters. To be fair I would play a sentient lump of Tofu if the game was good!

The problem with this kind of response is that the developers decide what the narrative is. The decision would have been no less sexist if they had decided to set the game in an all-male location. If, on the other hand, they were basing it on real events or pre-existing fictions, then they might be able to justify the lack of women.

Which is also the problem with this idea:

I've read an article, forget where. The Brink developers all said that the inclusion of female models would not only mess with the depth of the customization, but with balance and appearance.

Look at the heavy body type in this game. Now, imagine him as a female. No matter how you do it, the female characters would have less health, or look insanely unrealistic. That would force players who want to go heavy to play as men. Women are lighter, so they would be unfairly faster.

The developers don't have to do anything of the sort. They have not limited themselves to (some twisted version of) reality where all women are always weaker than all men. Their universe is one populated by men with distorted noses and chins, and where body weight is correlated with resistance to metal projectiles. Realism!

It is their game, they decided the laws of the in-game world. And if those laws meant that there were no women, then they made the wrong choice.

I wasn't saying that Brink should get a free pass, I was saying it doesn't to me at least, make sense to harp on Brink of all games. I'm saying if you're going to have a real conversation about gender in video games, don't make it just about Brink.

Yeah, let's not talk about gender here. Or the next game. Or the next. Let's keep it abstract and not complain about any sexism whenever it actually happens. Is that the conversation about gender that you want? 'Cause that won't solve anything. This is the real conversation, and we'll keep having it until the bullshit ends.

 

[butternut]

I can certainly understand how some people would be upset at the lack of inclusion of having an option as it would have most definately been one of the most defining features of the customisation for the player.

However, I can also see reasons as to why it would not have been included. From a resources standpoint, (The amount of time that it would take to remodel all of the clothes/skins/tatoos/accessories/hats etc for a female would ultimately reduce over all level of customisation for both genders) and also from a gameplay standpoint, the customisation system appears to be based mostly around which body type you select, light, medium or heavy, each body type actually changes how fast and manuverable your character is.

When playing this game you should be able to, upon seeing an enemy, judge their class and body type so that you can fully understand what you're up against and how to best defeat them. I believe it would have been alot more difficult to achieve the visual differences in the body types for women than it is for men, thus making it hard to judge say, whether or not the female character is medium body type or light and wearing bulky clothing.

 

[Elamdri]

1st, it's really time consuming and expensive to create a system like that for just one sex, and to do it with two (and to do it WELL) is even worse.

Same [http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=2027]

That was actually really funny! Still, that would be how things would work if the market was backwards. But there is nothing that stops a company from tailoring it's products to meet it's market demands, even if it's inherently sexist. If it's so bad, then the market will reject it. Yeah those arguments work both ways, but they're still VALID arguments. If it costs me an additional 10,000,000 dollars to add more women to the game (or men if you live in that articles alternate universe), and I will only expect to see an increased revenue of 1,000,000, you can bet that I will not be adding more women to the game.

[T]here is a strong persuasive view in society that it's reprehensible to depict the killing of women and children, and to be honest, I somewhat agree. I certainly am always turned off whenever a movie, tv show, game, ect. kills female characters (Lets not even talk about how children have nigh immunity from harm in almost all media, and ESPECIALLY games). Whether or not that perception is RIGHT, it certainly does exist, and considering Bethesda is trying (I would assume) to make money off of Brink, it's likely that they would want to go to some lengths to avoid negative media exposure.

Old [http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=1816]

See now that article, I tend to disagree with. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard the phrase "Chivalry is dead" in a negative context, I wouldn't be driving my crappy car. You can't ask me to buy your cake, have me buy your cake, eat your cake, then tell me that the cake was actually crap and that I shouldn't buy it for you cause you have your own money and are an independent woman and don't need a man to support you.

I'm not a feminist. I don't buy into a lot of the arguments in that article, because the reality is that there ARE distinct physical differences between men and women. Yes, we are equals under the eyes of the law, but the eyes of society and nature see us differently. Men ARE generally physically larger and stronger than women (Yes, there are outliers, but as a species this is not the case). Women can bear children, which is an enormous societal benefit, and one of the reasons that women receive a more protected position.

t doesn't seem to fit with in the story of Brink that women play a frontline military role.

Spoiler: -Shit-

And given that game developers can write about whatever universe they want, there is no reason for the story/game universe to be male dominated.

Is there an explanation in the narrative of the game? I thought the setting was kind of a giant floating prison, which is male only could be wrong shall google it.

But if that is the case having female characters is plain wrong. Also the first two Gears games managed to make headway without female characters. To be fair I would play a sentient lump of Tofu if the game was good!

The problem with this kind of response is that the developers decide what the narrative is. The decision would have been no less sexist if they had decided to set the game in an all-male location. If, on the other hand, they were basing it on real events or pre-existing fictions, then they might be able to justify the lack of women.

Which is also the problem with this idea:

I've read an article, forget where. The Brink developers all said that the inclusion of female models would not only mess with the depth of the customization, but with balance and appearance.

Look at the heavy body type in this game. Now, imagine him as a female. No matter how you do it, the female characters would have less health, or look insanely unrealistic. That would force players who want to go heavy to play as men. Women are lighter, so they would be unfairly faster.

The developers don't have to do anything of the sort. They have not limited themselves to (some twisted version of) reality where all women are always weaker than all men. Their universe is one populated by men with distorted noses and chins, and where body weight is correlated with resistance to metal projectiles. Realism!

It is their game, they decided the laws of the in-game world. And if those laws meant that there were no women, then they made the wrong choice.

I don't like the way you said "They made the wrong choice." Who the hell are you to decide what the "Wrong Choice" is? It's an art medium. Did Da Vinci make the "Wrong Choice" when he made the Mona Lisa a painting of a woman? Did Botticelli make the wrong choice when he made "The Birth of Venus" instead of "The Birth of Jupiter"?

Just because Bethesda created the Brink universe doesn't mean that it's some D&D fantasy setting. It's Earth. Just because they have different art style doesn't mean that we're suddenly in alternate universe F. Simply put, it's their game, and they made the decision, likely based on the reasons that I put out, that it wouldn't narratively make sense to include women in the fighting force. You seem to be operating under this assumption that just because the developers have infinite power to change the narrative, the fact that they did NOT do so makes the game sexist, which I just don't buy.

I wasn't saying that Brink should get a free pass, I was saying it doesn't to me at least, make sense to harp on Brink of all games. I'm saying if you're going to have a real conversation about gender in video games, don't make it just about Brink.

Yeah, let's not talk about gender here. Or the next game. Or the next. Let's keep it abstract and not complain about any sexism whenever it actually happens. Is that the conversation about gender that you want? 'Cause that won't solve anything. This is the real conversation, and we'll keep having it until the bullshit ends.

Again, not saying that we can't talk about gender in Brink. I am just confused as to what makes BRINK, a mediocre game at best, a huge gender hot button topic?

 

[Smooth Operator]

Actually they aren't anymore, because it turns out the game isn't that good
Plus all the characters are some sort of cartoonish monkey people, I don't think a female version of that would be pleasant on the eyes.

 

[Saelune]

In COD, the emphasis of customization was always placed on the guns. That changed slightly in Blops, but not so much so that people would remember to care.
Brink is somewhat lauded for its character customization - so people thought it odd that you can't change the gender, the very first thing most female gamers would want to do.

There isn't that much fuss about it, really. More of a baffling observation.

Thank you. This is exactly why. I get tired of all the people who put it down as just hate or the desire to complain. Case in point the guy below your post.