Why are people upset about no females in Brink, but not COD, Battlefield, or MoH

[Super Toast]

snip

Because Brink made a big deal over how customizable it was, and then forgot to include half the human race.

 

[Elamdri]

Because if you're going to create a game and come out by saying "Hey! We're going to have AMAZING customization options!" and then leave women? That's just asking for complaints.

You do realize that just leaving women out of the game does not by itself make the game sexist right? My point was that it makes no more sense for women to be in Brink than it does CoD/MoH/BF:BC2. They're all games military conflict, and women don't serve as front-line soldiers.

When did I ever mention "sexism" in my post? This has nothing to do with whether women are allowed to serve on the front lines, my point is simple. For a game to tout customization as one of their major selling points, and then leave out women as an option is just silly.

Even Halo Reach gives you the option to play as a female spartan - because now a days it's expected. More women are playing video games than ever, and whether or not it's "realistic" for women to be fighting, it's becoming the industry standard to have them.

Had they not put such emphasis on their customization ability, this wouldn't even be an issue.

Did you think that maybe it would have been too costly and time consuming to do both men and women, and so they went with men because that's what the majority of the players will be?

Did you think that perhaps women wouldn't fit within the aesthetics of the game (God knows Brink has some F---ing crazy looking people).

Did you think that maybe having women in the game wouldn't look right given that Brink lets you pick light, medium, and heavy based body types?

I mean, right there are 3 legitimate reasons for the developers to not put women in the game. I think people are just being silly about it. What if they HAD figured out how to do women in Brink and added them in the game? I'm sure we'd have a thread right now "WHY NO FURRIES IN BRINK!"

 

[Elamdri]

snip

Because Brink made a big deal over how customizable it was, and then forgot to include half the human race.

See my above post.

 

[Vault boy Eddie]

Because CoD, Battlefield, and MoH are trying to be realistic, in the sense that Special Forces is an all boys club, whereas Brink is supposed to be rival gangs/factions, in a city battling it out or something. At least that's my take on it, don't really know much about brink, that game kinda appeared outta nowhere for me.

 

[Super Toast]

snip

Because Brink made a big deal over how customizable it was, and then forgot to include half the human race.

See my above post.

I think Whargarble is right.

 

[Wharrgarble]

Did you think that maybe it would have been too costly and time consuming to do both men and women, and so they went with men because that's what the majority of the players will be?

Did you think that perhaps women wouldn't fit within the aesthetics of the game (God knows Brink has some F---ing crazy looking people).

Did you think that maybe having women in the game wouldn't look right given that Brink lets you pick light, medium, and heavy based body types?

I mean, right there are 3 legitimate reasons for the developers to not put women in the game. I think people are just being silly about it. What if they HAD figured out how to do women in Brink and added them in the game? I'm sure we'd have a thread right now "WHY NO FURRIES IN BRINK!"

The only one of your "3 legitimate reasons" that you gave that I can agree with is the first, that it costs an awful lot of money to create another gender in a game. Aesthetics can be easily taken care of by any halfway competent art director. That's their job.

I fully understand the amount of time and effort it goes into creating games such as this. Yet other games seem perfectly capable of adding women, and making it work very well. They should have been completely aware that a controversy such as this would come around, no matter what excuse they give.

In fact, I refer you to something Shamus Young said a while ago that I completely agree with:

"...So, doing two models instead of just one is more than twice the work. There's all the work for making the men. Then you have to do all of that work again, because none of it can be re-used for the women. Then you need more work to ensure the models are balanced against each other and inter-operate properly.

It's hard. It's expensive. I understand. But it's still incredibly strange to see a game in 2011 that lacks such an obvious and fundamental option."

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/stolen-pixels/8866-Stolen-Pixels-258-Where-the-Boys-Are

 

[Elamdri]

I think Whargarble is right.

That's fine, I personally think it's up to the artistic decision of the developer. I can understand people being upset over it, however, I refuse to acknowledge it as being "Sexist." For one thing, I think it demeans actual sexism to label every little thing as sexist. For another, it's not invalid for the developer to say that artistically it doesn't make sense for the characters to be male. You wouldn't complain that casting a black man to play Othello is racist.

 

[zehydra]

Hey, let's put this here so the feminists in the other thread don't find it!

Seriously though (and apart from the historical/'realistic' nature of the games mentioned), those of us who are angry/disappointed with Brink are pissed off about the representation of women in games in general. Seriously, the problem is this:

(Male, the FPS default)

This is the main problem. There is no reason for games to buy into this. (If you look on the other thread, a large part of the people who don't object to the exclusion of women are saying "but we would play it if it had women/androgynous humanoids/&c.", so presumably including women isn't going against the tastes of those people. And given that game developers can write about whatever universe they want, there is no reason for the story/game universe to be male dominated.) To treat male as default is to treat women as a variation; men as people, women as other.

As to why Brink has recieved such vitriol? It is a particularly egregious example of the trend. The reason that these customisation options are so extensive is to make each player's avatar unique. The developers stated that this was so that no two players would look the same--implying that each avatar was in some sense yours. So by not including female models, the developers essentially placed greater importance on the cut and colour of the shirts than they did a whole gender. Basically, the message this sends is 'Sorry ladies but you're just not that important.'

Last time I checked, You couldn't play a female character in CoD, you could play a female character in Battlefield Bad Company 2 (and it doesn't look like there will be females in BF3 either), and you can't play a female in Medal of Honor.

Honestly, of all the excuses for sexism in games, this is the worst. 'Other games exclude women, so this one should be allowed to also.' No. Brink does not get a free pass on this shit, just because of the bullshit other games have pulled.

"men as people, women as other"

that's not really what's going on, it's "men as the warriors, women as potentially warriors"

whether or not that's right either is a matter of debate.

 

[Super Toast]

I think Whargarble is right.

That's fine, I personally think it's up to the artistic decision of the developer. I can understand people being upset over it, however, I refuse to acknowledge it as being "Sexist." For one thing, I think it demeans actual sexism to label every little thing as sexist. For another, it's not invalid for the developer to say that artistically it doesn't make sense for the characters to be male. You wouldn't complain that casting a black man to play Othello is racist.

I don't think it was sexist, just a massive oversight on the developers part.

 

[Elamdri]

Did you think that maybe it would have been too costly and time consuming to do both men and women, and so they went with men because that's what the majority of the players will be?

Did you think that perhaps women wouldn't fit within the aesthetics of the game (God knows Brink has some F---ing crazy looking people).

Did you think that maybe having women in the game wouldn't look right given that Brink lets you pick light, medium, and heavy based body types?

I mean, right there are 3 legitimate reasons for the developers to not put women in the game. I think people are just being silly about it. What if they HAD figured out how to do women in Brink and added them in the game? I'm sure we'd have a thread right now "WHY NO FURRIES IN BRINK!"

The only one of your "3 legitimate reasons" that you gave that I can agree with is the first, that it costs an awful lot of money to create another gender in a game. Aesthetics can be easily taken care of by any halfway competent art director. That's their job.

I fully understand the amount of time and effort it goes into creating games such as this. Yet other games seem perfectly capable of adding women, and making it work very well. They should have been completely aware that a controversy such as this would come around, no matter what excuse they give.

In fact, I refer you to something Shamus Young said a while ago that I completely agree with:

"...So, doing two models instead of just one is more than twice the work. There's all the work for making the men. Then you have to do all of that work again, because none of it can be re-used for the women. Then you need more work to ensure the models are balanced against each other and inter-operate properly.

It's hard. It's expensive. I understand. But it's still incredibly strange to see a game in 2011 that lacks such an obvious and fundamental option."

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/stolen-pixels/8866-Stolen-Pixels-258-Where-the-Boys-Are

I guess my big thing is that I get aggravated when people start calling it "Sexist" to not have a female option. As I said in the above post, sometimes it just doesn't make sense for the story, art style, whatever, to include something. You wouldn't complain that casting a black man to play Othello is racist. I think the developers could just as easily say it's not sexist to not have female character models in Brink because we didn't intend for this to be a story where women play a major role in the fight for the Ark.

and I think there's other reasons as well. I think there's the Fox News factor, where any time you break a societal taboo you face getting bad press from Fox News. I mean I could go on.

I understand women being upset, but it's not something that's particularly new to FPS games nor is it in my opinion "sexist".

 

[Wharrgarble]

I think Whargarble is right.

That's fine, I personally think it's up to the artistic decision of the developer. I can understand people being upset over it, however, I refuse to acknowledge it as being "Sexist." For one thing, I think it demeans actual sexism to label every little thing as sexist. For another, it's not invalid for the developer to say that artistically it doesn't make sense for the characters to be male. You wouldn't complain that casting a black man to play Othello is racist.

I don't think it was sexist, just a massive oversight on the developers part.

This is the exact point I'm trying to make. This isn't sexism, they just made a poor design choice.

 

[Elamdri]

What's been said already... Brink marketed itself as a game with an emphasis on customization. When I think "customizable character", I should think that gender comes under that banner too.

For the record, I would probably enjoy all of those other games you mentioned a bit more if they had playable females. Unless I'm roleplaying (i.e. the game intends for you to slip into the shoes of a character with a role and story, as opposed to a game where your avatar is generally uncharacterized), I prefer to play as my own gender.

I could see that, I just think that there are better games to earn the ire of the gaming community for excluding women.

Hell, look at TF2. I can't think of a reason in the world to not include women in TF2, but they're not in the game. Yet no one cares.

And it would have been MUCH cheaper and easier to code women into TF2 than in Brink.

 

[Elamdri]

I think Whargarble is right.

That's fine, I personally think it's up to the artistic decision of the developer. I can understand people being upset over it, however, I refuse to acknowledge it as being "Sexist." For one thing, I think it demeans actual sexism to label every little thing as sexist. For another, it's not invalid for the developer to say that artistically it doesn't make sense for the characters to be male. You wouldn't complain that casting a black man to play Othello is racist.

I don't think it was sexist, just a massive oversight on the developers part.

This is the exact point I'm trying to make. This isn't sexism, they just made a poor design choice.

Well, I think we're all agreed that it's not sexist at least. I dunno if I can say it's "poor design choice."

When I look at games, and I think "Why are there no women in this game" the one that really stands out to me is Team Fortress 2. It would have been MUCH cheaper and easier to put women in TF2 (Only one model instead of the ridiculous customization stuff in brink, you have a tight character design, and to be honest, when I think of responsible, socially aware publishers, it's definitely Valve I think of (Oh Alyx Vance), not Bethesda with it's record of making women in it's games look hideous(I'm looking at you Oblivion))

 

[Daniel Kopec]

I don't get it either, I mean it's a FPS where you go around shooting people. It's not exactly a game that includes positive female role models. If you're going to get mad at the fact that females aren't in more games get mad at the fact that more games with something to say or an interesting story don't have them in it. Mirrors edge was fantastic and had a strong female main character in it. When you're dealing with more or less faceless uninteresting characters I don't think it really matters what sex they are. I mean the new tomb raider coming out has a completely reworked laura croft that has a real personality and looks like it's trying to make the player actually identify with her instead of just showcasing an unrealistic female figure to sell it to a male dominated audience.

 

[Wharrgarble]

Well, I think we're all agreed that it's not sexist at least. I dunno if I can say it's "poor design choice."

When I look at games, and I think "Why are there no women in this game" the one that really stands out to me is Team Fortress 2. It would have been MUCH cheaper and easier to put women in TF2 (Only one model instead of the ridiculous customization stuff in brink, you have a tight character design, and to be honest, when I think of responsible, socially aware publishers, it's definitely Valve I think of (Oh Alyx Vance), not Bethesda with it's record of making women in it's games look hideous(I'm looking at you Oblivion))

See, now this is something we agree upon. I, in no way, believe this was a sexist decision by the developers. I don't think they had anything malicious planned when they made the decision not to include women. There is no conspiracy, there is no hidden agenda.

However, that being said, this game came out (before we knew there would be no women) saying that it had great customization. That's pretty awesome news, and a lot of us got excited for it. After all, who doesn't like being unique when they can? The issue arose when it turned out that even in their "quadrillion" different customization options, they chose not to include women.

I, as a woman, am kinda bummed out by that. I was looking forward to maybe be able to play female in a shooter for once. Especially one I could have control over how she looked. I was a bit let down when I learned they chose to instead sink their money on creating more designs for shirts, than to include a female option.

I own Team Fortress 2. I never went into that game expecting to play a woman. Why? Because it was never even on the table, and I'm okay with that. Same with Black Op's, CoD, etc.

I wont claim sexism at all. Because it's not sexist. I would have picked up the game regardless, but the reviews have been less than stellar so maybe I'll wait and see what happens. My issue stems from a game that advertised one thing, then went back and said "oh wait, we forgot to mention... no women. Sorry guys."

Maybe if I had known that from the start, I wouldn't have been looking forward to it.

 

[DaJoW]

They went out of their way to make a press release boasting that there are 42 quadrillion different possible characters in their game. Character customization is a big deal in the marketing of this game, and yet they left out a whole gender. I'm sure they could have cut the numbers back to say 5 quadrillion and nobody would have cared, leaving them with ample time to add female characters.

Edit: Also, New Zealand, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Norway, Israel, Serbia, Sweden and Switzerland allow women to serve in the frontlines according to Wikipedia, so it isn't unheard of.

Edit again: My bad, it seems Israel at least does not allow women to serve on the frontlines, because the men could not handle seeing an injured woman.

 

[Brian Hendershot]

I can certainly understand how some people would be upset at the lack of inclusion of having an option as it would have most definately been one of the most defining features of the customisation for the player.

However, I can also see reasons as to why it would not have been included. From a resources standpoint, (The amount of time that it would take to remodel all of the clothes/skins/tatoos/accessories/hats etc for a female would ultimately reduce over all level of customisation for both genders) and also from a gameplay standpoint, the customisation system appears to be based mostly around which body type you select, light, medium or heavy, each body type actually changes how fast and manuverable your character is.

When playing this game you should be able to, upon seeing an enemy, judge their class and body type so that you can fully understand what you're up against and how to best defeat them. I believe it would have been alot more difficult to achieve the visual differences in the body types for women than it is for men, thus making it hard to judge say, whether or not the female character is medium body type or light and wearing bulky clothing.

What this guy said. And I would also like to add, remember the females on the Fable series? Remember how beastly they looked when they leveled up. Now think about a Brink Heavy Body Type as Female Character made by Bethesda. Let that image sink in. Do you want that people? Do you want that???

In all seriousness though, I think this is being blown out of proportion. Brink, which in my opinion, is a fun but problematic shooter that mixes up the first person genre that has enough problems of its own. It doesn't need sexists added to the list of its flaws, good grief.