Why Do Female Superheroes Rarely Date Normal Human Males?
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Hello, Nail. May I introduce you to Hammer? I think you two will get along nicely.undeadsuitor said:
Yeah unfortunately that seems, to some degree, the most likely, even if it's not always intentional.
No you may not. I demand that my misanthropy be enshrined by all people. This I have decreed!Asita said:
This is just an off-the-top-of-my-head, anecdotal list rather than a comprehensive, studied one, but: Superman and Lois Lane; Superman and Lana Lang; Superman and Lori Lemaris; Spider-Man and Gwen Stacy; Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson; Superior Spider-Man and Anna Marconi; Hal Jordan and Carol Ferris (when Carol Ferris is not Star Sapphire); Thor and Jane Foster; Captain America and Peggy Carter; Iron Man and Pepper Potts (when Pepper Potts is not piloting an Iron Man suit of her own); Kyle Rayner and the origin of the "women in fridges" meme; the Flash and Iris West; Daredevil and Karen Allen; Daredevil and the Black Widow; Spider-Man 2099 and whoever his girlfriend is lately, I forget her name; Miles Morales Spider-Man and Kate Bishop; Professor X and Moira MacTaggert or however you spell her last name; the Thing and his girlfriend, the blind sculptor, I want to say her name is Alicia...Ihateregistering1 said:
Hm. That's all I can think of without sitting down with my comic collection. Good catches on Doctor Manhattan/Silk Specter and Hulk/Betsy Ross, though.
Shrug. I've been a fan of comic books for twenty-three years. I've been reading books from all the publishers, I've been in the comic shops, I've talked with my fellow fans, I've watched what happens at conventions, I've read what people say on the internet. I feel absolutely zero guilt about saying there is a trend in this medium and in its fandom of men who have serious, unexamined problems with women.CaptainMarvelous said:
They were dating in the cartoon Justice League Unlimited. Don't know if you care to count that continuity.CaptainMarvelous said:
Captain Marvel is dating War Machine; Sue Richards is "dating" Reed Richards; Harley Quinn is dating Poison Ivy, and I think Catwoman might be dating them both too...CaptainMarvelous said:
Shit, I have to get driving. I'll amend this list later if I can.
Could anyone give me some examples? Not counting Wonder Woman and Superman, natch.[/quote]
Old characters, most of the well known examples of people dating norms is from old characters when secret identities where a big thing which is why your most notable example of of Wonder Woman, a very old character dating a fairly normal person.
Modern characters are a lot more likely to date those with dynamic backgrounds.
There's your answer.
Modern characters are a lot more likely to date those with dynamic backgrounds.
There's your answer.
The original superheroes were generally solo acts when they were created. So they were someone like Superman in a world of normal people where the other super powered people were villains.Agent_Z said:
The truth about female superheroes is that they are largely new with only a few exceptions. Modern superheroes routinely date other superheroes. Even Superman has been slowly migrated to having relationships with Wonder Woman despite his classic love of Lois Lane.
So I don't really agree with this sentiment or that it is purely power disparity. Not anymore.
Oh, great ninja, thou hast bested me by one minute. Why did I have to pause in hitting the post button to do my job, why...?Gengisgame said:
Ehhhhhh, I guess, I wasn't thinking of it but that probably counts.JimB said:
I don't even know if Sue and Reed EXIST any more, damn Secret Wars...
But with the others we get into the 'what counts as super' territory since Danvers definitely has more power than Rhodey and Ivy has more power than Harley. The only example springs to mind recently was the Ms. Marvel one where she briefly dated another inhuman who was evil and they worked in a bit of veiled social commentary about people only dating fellow superheroes/within their racial background. If you've got more I'd be interested in seeing them.
You'll note that this list is mostly entirely the old guard of superheroes as I said. The classics who originally existed in their own universe where they were THE superhero of it and people with powers were their enemies. It seems that now that superheroes are in a common universe they frequently move to give traditional female characters powers like your list is now revealing. I'll also note that some heroes like Spider-man, Green-Lantern, and the Flash had pre-existing relationships with their loves before they got powers. So it's more like regular human invested in regular human that suddenly gets powers in contrast to Superman or Thor.JimB said:
Also, you seem to be listed a lot of female heroes as though they are not superheroes. This would be the equivalent of saying that Batman is not a superhero which is highly debatable. It's also strange that in the same breath you list Tony Stark who is a regular human in super powered equipment but dismiss Kate Bishop (Hawkeye) who uses special hardware and is on the same team. You also list the Black Widow who actually has super human abilities albeit mundane ones (slowed aging, rapid healing, mind control resistance, enhanced immune system, etc) so maybe you're having a bit of trouble seeing female heroes as being heroes?
Lastly, consider how many of your examples were created by the same people? There are a lot of similarities between Stan Lee's characters for example. Especially the awful alliteration of names. But from your list, Thor, Iron Man, Daredevil, and Spider-man were all created by him. Also Hulk (which you didn't mention though Bruce Banner wasn't technically a superhero since the hulk was practically a different person) and the X-Men (which includes Professor X). So you could more reasonably ask why Stan Lee likes the contrast of superpowered men with regular women? I'd still point to the environment they were birthed in and the classic romance of a man accomplishing great feats to win the heart of and protect a woman which contrary to popular belief is not a bad theme.
To be fair even if it was some power disparity thing I still wouldn't consider it a problem, different people want different things in there escapism, I'm getting a bit tired of people mistaking different tastes in gender as sexism.Lightknight said:
If you look at the males in Hunger Games, Twilight, Convergence (was that the name), that film with Mila Kunis (I'm just safely assuming on this one), True Blood and all that type of fiction aimed at women the defining mental trait of all the male love interests is that they are devoted and ever worried about the female love interests, Knight like if you will, Inside Out even parodied this with Rileys imaginary boyfriend "I would die for you Riley".
If I where loopy I would consider this portrayal of males sexist rather than the simple fantasy that it is.
Agreed. Performing courageous acts to win the heart of a lover is central to the human experience. To dismiss it as sexist is to dismiss that we are sexually dimorphic as a species and do have different natural competencies (on average). Women on average have their own fantasies too which frequently includes being viewed as sexy in addition to so many other qualities. Rejecting these fantasies and desires is rejecting who we have evolved to be. We naturally want and like these things and calling us bad for these desires is as offensive as telling a gay person they are bad for liking their own sex.Gengisgame said:
I also dislike the claim that the damsel trope is automatically negative. They are stories in which the villain (bad guy) has taken away the agency of the damsel and the hero is the one who acts to return the agency to the damsel. It is literally the opposite of the arguments being raised against it. It is portraying the theft of agency as bad and encouraging those who have the power to stop it to act. What a great lesson to teach people, that everyone should have agency and anyone who would seek to remove their agency is a villain.
But I'm sure challenging it as a sexist trope makes more dollar signs than not.
She-Hulk dated Wyatt Wingfoot and James Jameson; Wonder Woman and Trevor Barnes; Astra dated a normal guy who broke up with her because he had an inferiority complex (irony!); Wonder Girl and Terry Long; Batgirl and Jason Bard; Black Canary and Larry Lance; Kitty Pryde and her various normal boyfriends; Mrs. Marvel and Michael Barnett; Dani Moonstar and some dude I can't remember; Spidergirl had a few regular joes, Starfire (is, was?) dating a normal guy in her current run, America Chavez and Batwoman are both dating normal women, if that counts?JimB said:
I'm sure I could come up with more if I thought about it. I've no doubt it happens less than with male heroes but it's not exactly rare for a female hero to date a normal guy, especially if we're counting people like Star Sapphire, Pepper Pots and even Black Widow as "normal" people.
I think another option might be when was the character originally created back in the golden and/or silver age of comics was when most canon was being solidified and 9 out of 10 you had a male superhero or hero (villains not considered.) most of the time the comics had each hero isolated to their own universe.
So Fantastic 4's only had them as people who could save the world,Spider-man was the only Vigilante that the Daily Bugle knew was a menace, or Batman for Gotham and so on.
So writing went like this when the powers were handed out were they related or already in a relationship if two genders got abilities. With stuff like Spider-man being the focal point of the comic it'd be a bit odd to show Black Cat(Good and/or Bad at times) dating someone else that was unrelated to Peter Parker's story so at times since she didn't have City take over dreams of villainy actually dated Spider-man from time to time.
With the notion that DC and Marvel could build interconnected universes came more small team groups or already large team member groups Like Iron Man's Crew in the 80's cartoon or X-men and what have you. In Iron Man's case the main focus was again the named hero but in X-men's case it could freely bounce around to anyone involved with a mutant or two but in that case the mutants are hated for being mutants in a large enough percentage that several groups of normal humans exist to hate or harm them a mutant heroine finding a normal male who isn't a villain or unknowing trap/bait is rare for the (at the time main intended audience) male reader to see happen in a story so due to the times most stories arks were written from the male perspective unless the comic was directly made about the female lead(s) like Wonder Woman.
So Fantastic 4's only had them as people who could save the world,Spider-man was the only Vigilante that the Daily Bugle knew was a menace, or Batman for Gotham and so on.
So writing went like this when the powers were handed out were they related or already in a relationship if two genders got abilities. With stuff like Spider-man being the focal point of the comic it'd be a bit odd to show Black Cat(Good and/or Bad at times) dating someone else that was unrelated to Peter Parker's story so at times since she didn't have City take over dreams of villainy actually dated Spider-man from time to time.
With the notion that DC and Marvel could build interconnected universes came more small team groups or already large team member groups Like Iron Man's Crew in the 80's cartoon or X-men and what have you. In Iron Man's case the main focus was again the named hero but in X-men's case it could freely bounce around to anyone involved with a mutant or two but in that case the mutants are hated for being mutants in a large enough percentage that several groups of normal humans exist to hate or harm them a mutant heroine finding a normal male who isn't a villain or unknowing trap/bait is rare for the (at the time main intended audience) male reader to see happen in a story so due to the times most stories arks were written from the male perspective unless the comic was directly made about the female lead(s) like Wonder Woman.
Really? I'd say it shows that female supers are smarter than male counterparts. Not only do super powered individuals tend to be more attractive on average, but on the off chance a villain figures out their secret identity they'll be able to protect themselves from said villain more easily.undeadsuitor said:
Great list.Gorrath said:
Perhaps this story mechanic is common for the same reason we have all these histories of princes and princesses pursuing normal people? It's more relatable than a story about two non-humans.
Superman, Spider-Man, Thor, Daredevil, Batman if superpowers aren't required, Hulk, Multiple Green Lanterns and Flashes, Iron Man if Batman counts, Human Torch and the Thing...these are just major superheroes off the top of my head.AccursedTheory said:
I would say there are plenty and could probably make a longer list if need be.
I'd go a step further and say that women tend to be rather central in such power fantasies.JimB said:
And add my own disclaimer to say that this doesn't automatically make you a bad person or something like that. I'm not here to hate on men, but this really is a central theme, far as I can tell.
Reading this thread to the second page, it seems like the original post is a false premise; female superheroes frequently date normal human males. In fact, it seems like in the decades of comics, everyone has dated everyone and pretty much everything.
Isn't Deadpool shtupping Death or something?
Isn't Deadpool shtupping Death or something?
It's also, honestly, due in part to the reliance on existing story structure and leaning on the tropes of legends and mythology for reference.
Look at the Nibelungenlied, for instance. The main love story is between Sigurd (a man who bathed in the blood of a dragon, and as such is immortal) and Kriemhild (who is very pretty). This is a standard legend structure, often owing to expectations of audiences; it began as an oral story and wasn't written for some time after the original story was created.
There is, however, another "romance" in the story, and that is the wooing of Brynhild. One of Kriemhild's brothers wants to marry Brynhild, as she is powerful, weatlthy, and an accomplished warrior. However, she will only marry the man who can best her in battle (another common theme for powerful women in mythology). He gets Sigurd to wear an illusion to look like him in order to beat her in battle, and therefore win her heart.
He actually takes it a step farther and begs Sigurd to wear the illusion again on the wedding night, so she won't realize anything is wrong until after the consummation, but that's its own thing. It also sets up the fall of the entire family, and the death of Sigurd, so...
Anyway. Common in myths and legends is the idea of the man getting power to win the heart of a woman, and the respect of their peers. But often powerful women rarely are told coming into power; they enter the story strong, and so we do not see their motivation for reaching the heights they've reached. Once powerful, they don't want to take a husband or partner that diminishes them, or who cannot make-do for themselves.
Look at Wonder Woman, especially the modern fixation of her being with whoever is considered the most powerful member of the Justice League by the current editorial staff. When she was created, she was almost a subversion of the Sigurd story: a powerful woman falling in love with what was ultimately a weaker being, but who could lead to her downfall. Modern writers, however, lean heavily on the idea that a powerful woman would never allow someone weaker to be near them, and this is couched in these kinds of literary and mythological traditions.
Also, a lot of modern comic writers are former comic fans, and they are putting the ideas they had as teenagers and fans into the stories in an effort to make them "cool". Not really a component of my argument, but I think Hayao Miyazaki's statement on Otaku and anime applies here; the fans have taken over, and are simply retelling their favorite stories in their own voice (paraphrasing).
And for people interested in the male/female power structure of legends, when her brothers kill Sigurd, Kriemhild leaves them behind and marries Etzel (Atilla the Hun) and helps him to lay waste to her traitorous family, guiding his Huns directly to their lands and butchering them to the last.
Look at the Nibelungenlied, for instance. The main love story is between Sigurd (a man who bathed in the blood of a dragon, and as such is immortal) and Kriemhild (who is very pretty). This is a standard legend structure, often owing to expectations of audiences; it began as an oral story and wasn't written for some time after the original story was created.
There is, however, another "romance" in the story, and that is the wooing of Brynhild. One of Kriemhild's brothers wants to marry Brynhild, as she is powerful, weatlthy, and an accomplished warrior. However, she will only marry the man who can best her in battle (another common theme for powerful women in mythology). He gets Sigurd to wear an illusion to look like him in order to beat her in battle, and therefore win her heart.
He actually takes it a step farther and begs Sigurd to wear the illusion again on the wedding night, so she won't realize anything is wrong until after the consummation, but that's its own thing. It also sets up the fall of the entire family, and the death of Sigurd, so...
Anyway. Common in myths and legends is the idea of the man getting power to win the heart of a woman, and the respect of their peers. But often powerful women rarely are told coming into power; they enter the story strong, and so we do not see their motivation for reaching the heights they've reached. Once powerful, they don't want to take a husband or partner that diminishes them, or who cannot make-do for themselves.
Look at Wonder Woman, especially the modern fixation of her being with whoever is considered the most powerful member of the Justice League by the current editorial staff. When she was created, she was almost a subversion of the Sigurd story: a powerful woman falling in love with what was ultimately a weaker being, but who could lead to her downfall. Modern writers, however, lean heavily on the idea that a powerful woman would never allow someone weaker to be near them, and this is couched in these kinds of literary and mythological traditions.
Also, a lot of modern comic writers are former comic fans, and they are putting the ideas they had as teenagers and fans into the stories in an effort to make them "cool". Not really a component of my argument, but I think Hayao Miyazaki's statement on Otaku and anime applies here; the fans have taken over, and are simply retelling their favorite stories in their own voice (paraphrasing).
And for people interested in the male/female power structure of legends, when her brothers kill Sigurd, Kriemhild leaves them behind and marries Etzel (Atilla the Hun) and helps him to lay waste to her traitorous family, guiding his Huns directly to their lands and butchering them to the last.
Wonder woman was a blatant bondage parody originally if that contributes to anything.kitsunefather said: