Why do you believe?

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Lord George

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I have come to believe in myself in a god as there's no evidence to suggest I'm not in the same way there's no evidence to suggest the non existence of other religions gods. I'm starting to carve out my own unique ideology and outlook on life which I follow as best as I can.
 

Fairee

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After a late night chat with a mate online, I've finally found my faith. Not because he said anything particularly inspiring, but just because I grew up attending church every Sunday, refused to go any more when I was about ten or so, and ever since I've been confused.

The thing is, I'm not sure I've ever had any doubt that God exists. It's something I've always known, that he is there. That's why I believe - because my mind works on logic (often flawed logic, but hey), and to me, there's never been a logical reason not to.

What was always messing with my mind was whether or not I wanted to let him into my life. And for some reason, that night when I was chatting online, I decided yes I did want to accept God. So now I can proudly say I'm Christian.
 

Skeleon

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I'm glad to see this thread develop the way it did so far.

Let me just say another thing that I feel is important about religion because a few atheists/agnostics have pointed out reasons why they oppose it.
Many religious people talk of the moral code that is part of most religions.
And while it's wrong to claim exclusivity of "moral behaviour" for religions, I do feel the need to highlight their ability to spread moral codes quickly to a large group of people. Many of those are outdated but I feel they were of great importance.
You have to acknowledge that religion probably was one of the most important ways to influence humans and make living in larger groups possible, at least before and for some time after the Antiquity. During the Antiquity, rationality was held in high esteem and many moral codes and ethical questions were posed without a basis in religion. But that's beside the point.
I'm talking about religion in general, by the way, not a specific one.
When people stopped living in tribes of up to 150 people (with enemy tribes nearby, mostly lodged in struggles over food or territory) and began living in larger communities, humans had to learn to suppress their violence. A naturally violent animal, an important outlet of anger (other tribes to wage war with) was gone and having a moral code was what allowed people to live in larger-than-tribes groups without constantly killing each other.
And we have to acknowledge that as a great advantage.

Now, let me pose a question to the other agnostics/atheists on this board: If you have any qualms with religion, are those really with religions themselves or rather the institutions related to them, like I feel?
Personally, I don't think religion itself is in any way dangerous, it's humans that make it dangerous.

(Please don't let this latest question stop you from posting any more replies to the original question, though!)
 

InProgress

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I think there's a higher power, however I don't tend to lean on that fact to help me deal with my own issues.

No miracle ever happened to me to say I "found" the righteous way.

I do attend chruch every Sunday because of my upbringing (I got with my mother and brother there), though I never actually found church to be of spiritual use. I feel fine the way I am.
 

Uncompetative

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Skeleon said:
Well, I don't want to incite a flame war as these kinds of threads are prone to do, but I'm just interested in this subject. Also, I hope the way I ask doesn't provoke anybody.
I consider myself something inbetween an agnostic and an atheist. I don't have faith in a supernatural being. But I sometimes wonder if it would make life easier if I had faith to lean on when life turns shitty, as it sometimes does.
However, faith isn't a decision; even if I wanted to, I couldn't just start believing in any gods.

So much for the introduction.
Basically, my thread title says it all: What are your reasons for believing in a higher power (no matter what religion/faith you have), if you can name any?
Were there any special occurances in your life that made you believe? "Miracles"?
Was it your upbringing? Social influences?
Or something else entirely?
By all means correct me if I am wrong, but you do believe (as I do) that there is no sort of God. In my case, this is a preference. Yet, I concede that I have absolutely no proof that I am right. It is an opinion. Some may then say "Oh, well it sounds like you're not sure... you must be an agnostic", but they would be wrong. I believe that there is no sort of God (which makes me an Atheist), even though I appreciate that this is an intellectually untenable position (given that no one can prove it either way and then there's the whole "proof denies faith" thing to consider).

So the simple basis of my world-view lacking some sort of God is simply that I prefer to live in Reality.

I don't believe in Ghosts either...

Of course, a clever, religiously-minded person may argue against this by saying that there are many things that I presumably accept about Reality that are next to impossible to verify 'first hand', also there is the whole 'are my sense-impressions of the world around me somehow synthetic' (the whole Brain-in-a-jar thing), however, these "awkwardly intangible fundamental concepts" aren't condemning me to an eternity of suffering if I don't praise its apparently laissez-faire management of the Universe.

To be honest, I'm not sure I believe in Gravity, Electricity, Magnetism and Radiation as forces at work in the world. I fully expect scientists to come out at some press-conference and apologetically tell the world that they have got it all wrong and our perception of the interaction of particles in curved space-time is really something totally different and we are not as we had assumed ourselves to be and consciousness itself was actually an illusion, probabilistically smeared across a lattice of hyper-dimensional manifolds: "a bit like foam in a bubble-bath"...
 

bad rider

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Dec 23, 2007
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tyleroi said:
Hmm I'd have to say what swung me from atheist to a little bit past agnostic was a mathematical argument that was presented to me by a physics major a year or so ago.. I can't remember the specifics (I'm not a math person) but essentially it boiled down to a higher being of some kind, though not necessarily a 'god' in the typically viewed sense, may be necessary for the "before the beginning of our universe" time to cause the first 'cause' in a super long chain of causes and effects that led to the present. But then again, the concept of what is a god isn't really defined in this argument thus far so: I don't believe, personally, that its very likely at all for there to be an all powerful/all knowing god out there who cares about every action I take. Could there be something that's just vastly superior to us in its stage of development? More likely, but still improbable.

I just wonder what some people think of the 'using math to prove the existence of god' rather then how I usually saw it used as a method of disproving.
That sounds like the Cosmological arguement + Maths
 

Mantonio

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Skeleon said:
I'm glad to see this thread develop the way it did so far.

Now, let me pose a question to the other agnostics/atheists on this board: If you have any qualms with religion, are those really with religions themselves or rather the institutions related to them, like I feel?
Personally, I don't think religion itself is in any way dangerous, it's humans that make it dangerous.


(Please don't let this latest question stop you from posting any more replies to the original question, though!)
It's the religions themselves. Sure it might have been needed thousands of years ago to help us survive, but these days the majority of religion seems to promote hatred and ignorance.

I have a picture that I could use here, but I don't know how to post those yet. How do I?
 

Skeleon

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Mantonio said:
I have a picture that I could use here, but I don't know how to post those yet. How do I?
Use [*img]URL[*/img] without the stars.
Better use [*spoiler] and [*/spoiler] around all of it, too, so the graphic is only loaded when you click on it.
 

Mantonio

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Skeleon said:
Mantonio said:
I have a picture that I could use here, but I don't know how to post those yet. How do I?
Use [*img]URL[*/img] without the stars.
Better use [*spoiler] and [*/spoiler] around all of it, too, so the graphic is only loaded when you click on it.
Aah I see. Does that mean they have to pictures on the Net and not, say, straight from my pictures folder then?

Either way, here's another example of my point. Warning: Rude words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJpaUvzHM74

The ONLY thing that has made these people that hateful... is their religion.
 

Cliff_m85

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Mantonio said:
I'm an agnostic atheist myself. I don't claim to 100% know, but since there's no evidence for any god I don't believe. I'm usually okay with religion as long as it sticks to itself, but the moment it starts trying to get its holy book passed into the schools or government as fact, I'm rather adamant against it. Because the moment church and state are not separated, all hell breaks loose.

There are other parts I hate. Mainly the sects of religion that are deeply stupid, or promote atrocities.

Here's an example. On the 18th of August 2001, Dr Younis Shaikh, a medical doctor and lecturer, was sentenced to death for 'blasphemy against Islam'. The crime? For telling his class that until he founded the religion, Muhammad was not a Muslim. It's ridiculous.

And then there's those idiotic evangelicals in America, the Taliban, those people who were in London holding signs saying 'BEHEAD THOSE WHO SAY ISLAM IS VIOLENT!', the Crusades, 9/11, 7/7, the Inquisition, the wiping out of Native Americans by christian settlers...

So in conclusion, you can belief whatever you want. But when it comes to religion versus law (on how to raise children, anti-discriminatory laws or whatever else), or religion versus science, your religion is not going to win.
Look at "The Satanic Verses", which had the Muslim community in rage. The irony is that they were told not to read the book by the ayatollah, so they couldn't really tell what was 'bad' in it. A fatwa was issued on Salman Rushdie. This led to his translators being assaulted or murdered with mutilation involved. His publisher was actually shot in the back several times with a high-velocity rifle, but somehow survived. You'd think that people would stand up for Rushdie since murder for writing a fictional book (based on another fictional book) is over doing it? Nope, at the Vatican archbishop of Canterbury and the chief sephardic rabbi of Isreal had 'sympathy for the ayatollah'. Same with the cardinal archbishop of New York and other minor religious figures.

When it comes down to it, religion cannot remain 'private'. You'd think knowing that eternal peace after death exists would make one mellow and calm, but we see the opposite. We see slaughtering of people who don't believe in a certain sect or religion, and we see fanaticism and anti-science fervor. Religion harms everything.
 

Skeleon

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Yes, I don't believe.

Uncompetative said:
In my case, this is a preference. *and a lot of snip*
I don't fully understand this part, however.
To me, faith or no faith is nothing I can decide. I just don't have faith.
From what I've gathered from some of the responses so far ("I just KNEW" etc.), it seems that many others (even on the other side) seem to agree with that sentiment.
How do you choose to have faith or not?
Isn't that something more passive?

I agree with you on the part about the "brain-in-a-jar", basically nothing is for certain. But does that really matter? Our decisions have an effect on our life and the world around us, so obviously it has some relevance, no matter how small it may be in the grand scheme of things.
 

traceur_

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Maze1125 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98OTsYfTt-c&feature=related
That was a great vid, thanks for posting the link.

Yes that vid sums up my feelings towards the "can't be a coincidence" argument. I know people like to find evidence of god in nature and society to fortify their faith and I think that's awesome as long as they don't swing it like a hammer to try and dispel the beliefs of others.
 

New Troll

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Other than the simple, why wouldn't someone believe, for me it all boils down to when I'm talking to myself, I feel a presence listening.

As I've stated several times before, I'm not a fan of religion because they've all been influenced by man, but I do believe in God. When I look around and see the world around me, the universe surrounding me, I see a Creater, not just miniscule circumstance.

And like I've also stated many, many times before, I truly believe we're basicly God's TV. Be it movie night with Braveheart or daily drama with Jerry Springer, that's us.
 

J.E.T.

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Ok I am not going to go though all the details but in short, all my life I have had a auto-immune desiese, a Hyper-thyroid, I truely didnt think there was anyway to beat it I took the drugs the doctors gave me they only barely reduced the symptoms ,extreem dizzyness and almost collapsing from exaustion for no real reasons, one day my mother and younger brother prayed with me [I know I know dont start] and for some odd reason she took a rag with olive oil on it and placed it on my throat, at the approximate position of my thyroid, she said she felt "called" to do this. the next few days/week I noticed myself not having dizzy spells, and such. I had blood work done, a week or so after, and my thyroid came out comepletely healthy/normal! There is no doubt im my mind that God did this granted even though I am not exactly a devout Christian. [I miss church more than I probably should ect.] I was healed by a holy power and that is what I believe.
 

Cliff_m85

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Skeleon said:
I'm glad to see this thread develop the way it did so far.

Let me just say another thing that I feel is important about religion because a few atheists/agnostics have pointed out reasons why they oppose it.
Many religious people talk of the moral code that is part of most religions.
And while it's wrong to claim exclusivity of "moral behaviour" for religions, I do feel the need to highlight their ability to spread moral codes quickly to a large group of people. Many of those are outdated but I feel they were of great importance.
You have to acknowledge that religion probably was one of the most important ways to influence humans and make living in larger groups possible, at least before and for some time after the Antiquity. During the Antiquity, rationality was held in high esteem and many moral codes and ethical questions were posed without a basis in religion. But that's beside the point.
I'm talking about religion in general, by the way, not a specific one.
When people stopped living in tribes of up to 150 people (with enemy tribes nearby, mostly lodged in struggles over food or territory) and began living in larger communities, humans had to learn to suppress their violence. A naturally violent animal, an important outlet of anger (other tribes to wage war with) was gone and having a moral code was what allowed people to live in larger-than-tribes groups without constantly killing each other.
And we have to acknowledge that as a great advantage.

Now, let me pose a question to the other agnostics/atheists on this board: If you have any qualms with religion, are those really with religions themselves or rather the institutions related to them, like I feel?
Personally, I don't think religion itself is in any way dangerous, it's humans that make it dangerous.

(Please don't let this latest question stop you from posting any more replies to the original question, though!)
Religion was created by humans, so obviously it has a dangerous side. Religion is dangerous infact, as we have all seen. If skepticism was placed in those old begroddled tomes we'd have no problem, but it's a jublilent praise of 'faith' that ruins it. Anything that comes out that may debunk or upset a certain religion will get people up in arms. Look at how America still has to deal with idiots that think Evolution is offensive to them. The utter flabbergasted gasps of disgust with "You think we came from apes?" when their Christian existance states we started from mud with god breath in it then went on to commit incest without any known defects until the flood, where we started back up with incestuous zeal. But then faith and tradition harm us as well, look at the Mohels in New York that game babies STD's by performing their circumcision rites. Look at the Christians that see sex as evil before marriage as well as see the education of birth control as something that might 'inspire' teenagers to have sex. Look at the Scientologists diabolical process of scorning family members that are skeptical of Scientology. I could easily go on, but I'll leave it at that.

Man is to blame for religious actions, but that very religion inspires those very actions. Religion does harm, it's been shown time and time again.
 

Cliff_m85

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J.E.T. said:
Ok I am not going to go though all the details but in short, all my life I have had a auto-immune desiese, a Hyper-thyroid, I truely didnt think there was anyway to beat it I took the drugs the doctors gave me they only barely reduced the symptoms ,extreem dizzyness and almost collapsing from exaustion for no real reasons, one day my mother and younger brother prayed with me [I know I know dont start] and for some odd reason she took a rag with olive oil on it and placed it on my throat, at the approximate position of my thyroid, she said she felt "called" to do this. the next few days/week I noticed myself not having dizzy spells, and such. I had blood work done, a week or so after, and my thyroid came out comepletely healthy/normal! There is no doubt im my mind that God did this granted even though I am not exactly a devout Christian. [I miss church more than I probably should ect.] I was healed by a holy power and that is what I believe.
How nice of God to start you out with an auto-immune disease. Atleast he healed you after you suffered all your life, right?
 

slevin8989

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I believe that people should act accordingly to how they want to be treated that there should be no motive for them to do good other than that's what they feel they should do.
 

Maze1125

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Rascarin said:
Also, after studying science at college, it seems impossible to me that the sheer complexity of the world happened because of a freak explosion in space. It's too improbable to be chance. The diversity of species, the complexity of DNA, structure of the human body... I cannot see how a huge asplosion can create that.
It's actually quite simple.
First, the Big Bang wasn't an explosion, it is an expansion, one that is still happening. We can look out into the sky and see that, not only is every galaxy moving away from the others, they are actually accelerating. That is the Big Bang, still happening today.

Now, once all the matter was spread out by the initial expansion and the elections and protons found each other to make hydrogen, gravity caused it to clump together. This is the simplest part, we all know that gravity pulls mass towards other mass. Once each clump acquired enough mass the hydrogen atoms were under enough force to be forced together, initiating fusion. The clumps of matter then became stars.

And inside each star the hydrogen was fusing together to produce elements with more protons and more elections. The most common of which became oxygen, meaning the third most common molecule in the universe is water, made up of one of the created oxygen and two of the original left over hydrogen. (The two more common molecules beings the simple H2 and O2 molecules.)

At the end of the star's natural life they exploded into a supernova spreading those newly created elements outwards, which allowed planets to be created, and often the star would start over in it's fusion process, but smaller in size.

At this point with have a solar system with water and everything needed for life, with a planet with the perfect conditions for abiogenesis, the creation of life from non-life.

And from there Evolution explains the diversity of life very easily.

Now you may be thinking "But they can't know that." but we can.
As I said at the start, the Big Bang is still happening and, thanks to the finite speed of light, we can look back and see the early stages of the universe, we can see every process I've said here actually happening. The only part we can't see directly is the abiogenesis, which we have incredibly detailed explanations about. Everything else we can still see happening today.

Even if you want to argue that evolution and abiogenesis are wrong, we can still see all the the stellar phenomena. So either the universe is 13 billion years old, or the god who made it really wanted us to think it was.

And, of course, there are still some questions, like "Where did the matter for the Big Bang first came from?", but that's what science is about. Saying "We don't know what happened there, let's find out."

Now, of course, none of this denies the possibility of a god existing. It could well be that all these processes were guided, even possible that a god made everything 6000 years ago and just had it look like it was 13 billion years old.

But we don't need a god to explain anything, science has explained so many things, and there is no reason to think to won't someday explain the rest.