Why do you believe?

[scotth266]

SNIP.

Ok, first off source the controversial stuff, as I have an EXTREMELY hard time believing most of that. And that quote about misery enlightening her? Hell, it sure enlightens me. It means that I did something wrong, and makes me want to fix it. That sounds like a quote taken out of context.

God responds to us as we are able to understand him. Back then, we solved problems with violence. He dealt with us in a manner we understood. You don't see biblical plagues every day now, do you? We evolved socially, and now he responds to us differently.

And by hedging their bets, I meant that he managed to convince them that believing was worth the investment just from a gambler's perspective. I'm in no way saying that someone should just try to win brownie points: I was saying that trying to believe in something is a safer bet than believing in nothing. I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything here. I'm just saying that faith of any kind is something to try, just like snowboarding or writing poetry, on a spiritual level.

You also felt it necessary to call my personal beliefs nonsense. Way to win me over.

Look, you're being overly hostile. The OP does not want hostility in his thread. If you can't play by the rules, kindly back away. Hell, this isn't even the right thread for debating this sort of thing. It's supposed to be meant to discuss why some members do and do not believe.

 

[Anachronism]

I don't consider myself part of any particular religion. Call it a cop-out if you will, but I consider all religions different interpretations of one God; to me, the Qu'ran, the Bible, and the Torah are all of equal significance. Basically, I believe in a higher power, but not necessarily the anthropomorphic God that most religions teach.

The main reason I believe is simply that I don't believe in coincidence. The creation of the universe was a trillions-to-one chance; how the hell did something get created from nothing? There wasn't even a vacuum, because there was nothing for a vacuum to exist in. When the Earth came together, how was life created in the primordial ooze? There was nothing for a long, long time, and then life emerged somehow. The final big coincidence is that if Earth were any closer to the sun, we'd all burn to death, and if it were any further away, we'd freeze to death. I'll accept the occasional coincidence, but this is just too much for me to accept a higher power didn't have anything to do with it.

Until science is able to create something from nothing, this is my stance.

 

[Cliff_m85]

SNIP.

Ok, first off source the controversial stuff, as I have an EXTREMELY hard time believing most of that. And that quote about misery enlightening her? Hell, it sure enlightens me. It means that I did something wrong, and makes me want to fix it. That sounds like a quote taken out of context.

God responds to us as we are able to understand him. Back then, we solved problems with violence. He dealt with us in a manner we understood. You don't see biblical plagues every day now, do you? We evolved socially, and now he responds to us differently.

And by hedging their bets, I meant that he managed to convince them that believing was worth the investment just from a gambler's perspective. I'm in no way saying that someone should just try to win brownie points: I was saying that trying to believe in something is a safer bet than believing in nothing. I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything here. I'm just saying that faith of any kind is something to try, just like snowboarding or writing poetry, on a spiritual level.

You also felt it necessary to call my personal beliefs nonsense. Way to win me over.

Look, you're being overly hostile. The OP does not want hostility in his thread. If you can't play by the rules, kindly back away. Hell, this isn't even the right thread for debating this sort of thing. It's supposed to be meant to discuss why some members do and do not believe.

I don't see myself as being hostile, I see myself as the alternative rule...one that relies on skepticism and actual evidence rather than faith and apologetics. Your personal beliefs are nonsense, if I were to pussyfoot around that would be disrespectful to you...I state it outright so no doubt is had, so you don't think I support it...your beliefs are nonsense. I don't mean that offensively, I mean that as I would tell anyone that had a belief in something nonsensical, like Santa or the Tooth Fairy or Reflexology.

http://www.slate.com/id/2090083/ for one piece of Mother Teresa exposition.
Teresa was asked about holding pain medication from the dying and sick of Calcutta, that's where the quote came from.

Faith is not something to dabble in as snowboarding is. Snowboarding never caused lynch mobs, anti-science fervor, anti-homosexuality, or suicide bombings.

 

[Mantonio]

I don't consider myself part of any particular religion. Call it a cop-out if you will, but I consider all religions different interpretations of one God; to me, the Qu'ran, the Bible, and the Torah are all of equal significance. Basically, I believe in a higher power, but not necessarily the anthropomorphic God that most religions teach.

The main reason I believe is simply that I don't believe in coincidence. The creation of the universe was a trillions-to-one chance; how the hell did something get created from nothing? There wasn't even a vacuum, because there was nothing for a vacuum to exist in. When the Earth came together, how was life created in the primordial ooze? There was nothing for a long, long time, and then life emerged somehow. The final big coincidence is that if Earth were any closer to the sun, we'd all burn to death, and if it were any further away, we'd freeze to death. I'll accept the occasional coincidence, but this is just too much for me to accept a higher power didn't have anything to do with it.

Until science is able to create something from nothing, this is my stance.

1) The Big Bang is a lot more probable than that. And even if it wasn't that would be okay, because it only had to happen ONCE. Furthermore, the Big Bang theory doesn't say the universe came from nothing.
2) Look up abiogenesis for the scientific explanation of how life came into being. It's even been recreated in a lab.
3) If by 'any closer' you mean 37%. That's how much further towards or away from the sun we'd have to be for our planet to be inhospitable. To give you some scale, that's about the distance from here to Mars.

 

[scotth266]

May I point out some parts from the Bible? This is who the Bible says you should kill:

SNIP

And before anyone says 'But that's the Old Testament!', according to Christ in Matt.10:35-6 all of the Old Testament's laws still apply.

Edit:

Of course. We religious folk believe that God made us with free will: we can choose to do wrong, or even deny his existence.

It's not free will though, because if you don't believe in God unconditionally, you'll be sent to Hell where you be TORTURED forever. It's not a choice, it's an ultimatum. It's the sort of 'choice' a criminal gives you when he places a gun to your head and says 'give me your wallet, and I won't shoot you!'

Ok then, I think that you got your verses wrong. Matthew 10: Verses 35-36 does not say that at all. It was rather a statement about how the coming of Christianity would split households and turn them against each other. Perhaps a mispost?

(Yes, I have a New Testament. It was better than seeing it being kicked around the dorm hall by jerks. I'll tolerate disrespect of my faith, but that was too much.)

And you seem to have a misconception: God doesn't automatically damn you for not believing in him. The current stand among the moderate Catholics is that you're judged based off of how good a person you were. There are exceptionally nice atheists out there: I doubt that they're damned to hell.

All this hatred coming out in this thread seems to be directed towards the extremists: a situation that is hilarious to me and other moderate Catholics, as we dislike them too.

 

[scotth266]

http://www.slate.com/id/2090083/ for one piece of Mother Teresa exposition.
Teresa was asked about holding pain medication from the dying and sick of Calcutta, that's where the quote came from.

Faith is not something to dabble in as snowboarding is. Snowboarding never caused lynch mobs, anti-science fervor, anti-homosexuality, or suicide bombings.

*Sighs*

Look, that "article" was painful to read. It lacks sources of it's own, and treats anything remotely related to faith as a mockery. I could've linked you to the Pope's personal site for the same level of subtlety. I appreciate that you actually are attempting to be logical about this, but it's just not working. Faith defies logic by definition.

And you seem to have missed the point: EVERYONE HATES THE EXTREMISTS, the causes for all the things that you list. Even we moderates don't like them. So stop trying to tie us to them, m'kay?

 

[curlycrouton]

Oddly being a Historian who specializes in Religious History...

Sorry to go off topic somewhat, but that's exactly my desired field of work when I leave school (I'm currently finishing A-Levels). Would it be possible for me to get some advice on how to get into that area, and outline the basics of what exactly you do? I can understand if you're too busy, but it'd be a great help. Maybe PM me.

 

[Frequen-Z]

All this hatred coming out in this thread seems to be directed towards the extremists: a situation that is hilarious to me and other moderate Catholics, as we dislike them too.

Yeah, while I am a strict athiest and all the rest, I do acknowledge a fair amount of the criticism and satire of Christians to be skewered by the extremists.

Just another case of the minority ruining it for the majority, I guess.

 

[IrrelevantTangent]

So, no fellow Buddhists in this thread? I am a sad panda.

 

[Cliff_m85]

http://www.slate.com/id/2090083/ for one piece of Mother Teresa exposition.
Teresa was asked about holding pain medication from the dying and sick of Calcutta, that's where the quote came from.

Faith is not something to dabble in as snowboarding is. Snowboarding never caused lynch mobs, anti-science fervor, anti-homosexuality, or suicide bombings.

*Sighs*

Look, that "article" was painful to read. It lacks sources of it's own, and treats anything remotely related to faith as a mockery. I could've linked you to the Pope's personal site for the same level of subtlety. I appreciate that you actually are attempting to be logical about this, but it's just not working. Faith defies logic by definition.

And you seem to have missed the point: EVERYONE HATES THE EXTREMISTS, the causes for all the things that you list. Even we moderates don't like them. So stop trying to tie us to them, m'kay?

Faith is faith, extremist or moderate. It's nothing to applaud at all. Alot of moderates are against homosexuality, gay marriage, gays adopting, and whatnot. In the past alot of moderates were against mixed race marriages, mixed schools, mixed bussing (I have a poster from a Christian group warning that mixed bussing would cause 'canniballism'), and black people in general. The only difference is that the extremists would kill while the moderates would holier-than-thouly stare or yell a bit.

 

[curlycrouton]

Man is to blame for religious actions, but that very religion inspires those very actions. Religion does harm, it's been shown time and time again.

A generalization and a blanket statement. Religion also does incredible amounts of good in the right hands. Look at Mother Theresa, or John Paul II. Sure, it can be abused, but anyone willing to take advantage of religion to abuse it for a cause would get the short stick after death, no?

I do not believe anyone should live in fear of a vengeful God. That's the Old Testament God. He's much nicer now

I do not believe you need to believe in a higher power to have morals. Of course. We religious folk believe that God made us with free will: we can choose to do wrong, or even deny his existence.

I do not believe there was a guy 2000 years ago who came back from the dead. Your perogative, mate.

I do not believe there is an all loving god who would send you to burn for eternity if you sin. I like to think of Hell like Dante's Inferno: you have to choose and accept it, and shun God.

I do not believe putting my hands together and wishfully thinking to previously mentioned 2000 year old man will have effect on whatever outcome my thoughts were trying to sway. Well, once again your perogative. You can always just ask the big G himself, you know. There's an old tale about how a priest converted a gambling town: he convinced them that they might as well hedge their bets. I think this is something similar.

Sorry for any and all offence, that's just how I see things.You're just stating your opinion. No harm no foul.

Stuck my thoughts in bold.

Well considered thoughts, and I agree with most of them (despite being a Humanist) but I'd just like to pick up on your "hedging your bets" point. There are many religions in the world, many of which claim that people who don't follow their belief go to Hell, or are punished in some way. So you're almost as likely to go to "Hell" if you're a Christian as you are if you're an atheist.
However, considering I don't believe in Hell, I don't concern myself with this worry too much, but I was just making a point, a criticism of your theory if you will.

 

[scotth266]

All this hatred coming out in this thread seems to be directed towards the extremists: a situation that is hilarious to me and other moderate Catholics, as we dislike them too.

Yeah, while I am a strict athiest and all the rest, I do acknowledge a fair amount of the criticism and satire of Christians to be skewered by the extremists.

Just another case of the minority ruining it for the majority, I guess.

God, how true that is. They ruin everything for us moderates. Religion, like everything in life, should be done IN MODERATION. There's no reason to act like the crazier folks in the Jehovah's Witnesses(not all of them are crazy, referring mainly to the pamphlet-pusher types).

 

[shadowstriker86]

Well, I don't want to incite a flame war as these kinds of threads are prone to do, but I'm just interested in this subject. Also, I hope the way I ask doesn't provoke anybody.
I consider myself something inbetween an agnostic and an atheist. I don't have faith in a supernatural being. But I sometimes wonder if it would make life easier if I had faith to lean on when life turns shitty, as it sometimes does.
However, faith isn't a decision; even if I wanted to, I couldn't just start believing in any gods.

So much for the introduction.
Basically, my thread title says it all: What are your reasons for believing in a higher power (no matter what religion/faith you have), if you can name any?
Were there any special occurances in your life that made you believe? "Miracles"?
Was it your upbringing? Social influences?
Or something else entirely?

for me, hope and faith. Hope that theres alot better stuff for me after i leave this planet full of idiots (people who believe in global warming for example) and faith that the only reason certain events happened in my life was because of God. It's simple and people will flame me for it, but you asked why and its always easier for me to just give a straight answer to a simple question.

 

[Mantonio]

All this hatred coming out in this thread seems to be directed towards the extremists: a situation that is hilarious to me and other moderate Catholics, as we dislike them too.

Yeah, while I am a strict athiest and all the rest, I do acknowledge a fair amount of the criticism and satire of Christians to be skewered by the extremists.

Just another case of the minority ruining it for the majority, I guess.

The problem is though, in places such as America and the Middle East, the minority is far from minor.

Ok then, I think that you got your verses wrong. Matthew 10: Verses 35-36 does not say that at all. It was rather a statement about how the coming of Christianity would split households and turn them against each other. Perhaps a mispost?

Hmm perhaps. Tell me what the verse says again would you?

And you seem to have a misconception: God doesn't automatically damn you for not believing in him. The current stand among the moderate Catholics is that you're judged based off of how good a person you were. There are exceptionally nice atheists out there: I doubt that they're damned to hell.

Then you've got a rather nice brand of Christianity. It's a pity not all are more like that.

By the way, didn't the Pope say that condoms aren't good against AIDS, and actually make the problem worse? Was all over the news a few months back.

 

[scotth266]

Well considered thoughts, and I agree with most of them (despite being a Humanist) but I'd just like to pick up on your "hedging your bets" point. There are many religions in the world, many of which claim that people who don't follow their belief go to Hell, or are punished in some way. So you're almost as likely to go to "Hell" if you're a Christian as you are if you're an atheist.
However, considering I don't believe in Hell, I don't concern myself with this worry too much, but I was just making a point, a criticism of your theory if you will.

I think I answered your criticism whilst you typed it: only the hardcore extremists in religions tend to advocate that. The rest of us just sit behind them and snicker at how silly they're acting.

 

[Frequen-Z]

All this hatred coming out in this thread seems to be directed towards the extremists: a situation that is hilarious to me and other moderate Catholics, as we dislike them too.

Yeah, while I am a strict athiest and all the rest, I do acknowledge a fair amount of the criticism and satire of Christians to be skewered by the extremists.

Just another case of the minority ruining it for the majority, I guess.

God, how true that is. They ruin everything for us moderates. Religion, like everything in life, should be done IN MODERATION. There's no reason to act like the crazier folks in the Jehovah's Witnesses(not all of them are crazy, referring mainly to the pamphlet-pusher types).

Yeah, my dad was raised a Jehovah's Witness, as soon as he was independent enough he opted out of it and now refers to it as 'the cult' (light-heartedly to other family members)

 

[Slayer_2]

I was brought up in a Christian family, hell my name (Adam) is Christian, but I really couldn't believe that an all-powerful entity would let the world get into this state. Not to mention that many of the stories in the Bible are outright unbelievable or inconsistent with other versions, making a higher power seem even more impossible.

 

[scotth266]

Hmm perhaps. Tell me what the verse says again would you?

SNIP

Then you've got a rather nice brand of Christianity. It's a pity not all are more like that.

By the way, didn't the Pope recently say that condoms aren't good against AIDS, and actually make the problem worse? Was all over the news a few months back.

The verses say "For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be those of his own household."

Yeah, I'd call mispost on that

As for the Pope, once again we moderates tend to ignore him. He's an old-school dude stuck in to tide us over to the next John Paul II, a.k.a a mover and a shaker. Our faith takes a while to catch up to society: give it time.

 

[MmmFiber]

Also, after studying science at college, it seems impossible to me that the sheer complexity of the world happened because of a freak explosion in space. It's too improbable to be chance. The diversity of species, the complexity of DNA, structure of the human body... I cannot see how a huge asplosion can create that.

It's actually quite simple.
First, the Big Bang wasn't an explosion, it is an expansion, one that is still happening. We can look out into the sky and see that, not only is every galaxy moving away from the others, they are actually accelerating. That is the Big Bang, still happening today.

Lots of snip.

To the "still expanding" point: yes, its still expanding, but I will point out that most known math and physics does breakdown around the point of first expansion and right after the singularity starts to expand. At least it does in most theories. Hawking made a model that he said would preserve mathematical equations, but who's going to be able test it?

To the "gravity" point: in his equations, Newton stated that gravity pulled but in his writing he said he thought it pushed. He just couldn't find the equation for it. And Einstein theorized that matter affects space-time. Which is why we can see some stars that are actually behind the sun, because gravity curves the light around the sun. It's a debatable issue all-around though.

Overall that was a pretty good recap of the explainable creation of the universe. But, who knows how the gravity/matter/space/time bubble/singularity/infinitely-dense-point came to exist? I hope we can figure that out in my life time.

They have found some other planets that are close to earth's atmosphere. Those may support life. It's all very interesting.

I'm an agnostic atheist. I dont see any evidence to support a god, but I certainly don't see any evidence to the contrary.

 

[IrrelevantTangent]

Jesus Christ on a motorized jetski, enough with the religion/atheism bashing in this thread. It's like watching cats and dogs fight; or rather, dragons riding wolves fighting lions throwing pies. I know I'm not making much sense, so I'll finish with a "lay off the Haterade" sentiment.