Why is rape or even just sex worse than death?

[Casual Shinji]

My initial argument would be that rape is a form of torture, both physically, mentally, and emotionally, and therefor seen as more sadistic than outright killing, but it's a very difficult subject.

I'd agree in the case of systematic/repeated rape. Otherwise I consider it a form of assault [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault].

The ideal that rape is sick and murder is simply bad is very much part of society, but how it got there is up for debate. I wouldn't say it's a religious thing, because the taboo of sex (a religious issue) is very different from the taboo of rape. And I'm sure there are plenty of atheists who feel more unnerved by the notion of rape then they do by that of murder.

For your latter point, I'd say it's a case of us getting partially desensitized to murder/death, since we are exposed to it in media a lot more than we are rape.

I wouldn't be surprised, though, if the exaggerated shame forced upon rape victims stems from the ancient view that a virgin woman is worth more than one who has had sex. So by being raped a woman has been devalued, and should feel ashamed.

Of course the reality of the situation is that the perpetrator is the one who should feel ashamed, since he/she is the one who has done wrong upon another.

I think it might also be because our sexuality is at the core of our very being. It's a primal urge.

If that part of you gets assaulted and tortured it basically scars one of the prime foundations of what makes you a living being.

It might sound a bit silly, but that's the best that I can explain it.

 

[Kiardras]

I think it's more about the criminal than the victim. Most of us can imagine circumstances in which we could kill another human being and be justified in doing so, but those justifications can never really exist for rape.

I agree. Murder can often be justified by a witness (even if they do not know all the facts, their first thought might be that the the guy you saw get stabbed had done something to make it justifiable). Not only that, but most people could picture themselves commiting murder if the circumstances were right.

Nothing can ever justify rape however, it is not a legitimate way of getting revenge, or of punishing someone who has wronged you. So its a lot harder to see it from the criminal's point as they are often not right in the head.

Captcha: he loves her.

Um.....

 

[RustlessPotato]

What is more disturbing to look at: a dead body, or a living body screaming in agony?
Humans sympathize with other humans who experience pain. When someone is killed, we aren't exposed to someone in pain.

I agree

In my studies I have had to look at some corpses and sometimes I even had to open one. From the moment you look at it for what it is, a body, a piece of meat, it's not really disturbing.

I couldn't look at someone screaming. When I see films like Saw or Hostel, it's not the torture act itself that makes me uncomfortable, but the screaming.

Like some one else said: you have rape in the "Have sex with me if you want x" and the brutal (gang) rape kind. I think the latter is far more horrific than the former, because the former is more like coercion where you can say no more easily than when someone, or some people actually assault you.

 

[Gigano]

Well, since the advice given to rape victims isn't "kill yourself", then there's no logical reason behind it, since death is still seen as a worse fate.

So probably just that people think rape is icky, while violence is cool, with no real logical analysis of how much harm each one generally inflicts.

 

[Treblaine]

Obviously this is not a new thought. But I'm thinking more from a biology/psychology perspective. If I see a sexual crime I'm like ewww, but if I see someone's head being ripped off I'm like eh.

This applies to games much more than other mediums too. Can you imagine the uproar if you could rape someone in a mainstream game? But killing people, well, I'm sure you can finish this thought off.

Is this a societal thing, caused by the Abrahamic religions?

Is it biological?

What gives?

[Trigger Warning - as is probably the case with this whole thread - if you don't want to read a discussion about rape, then don't]

You are looking at this from the result, not how it got there.

It got to (stylised) decapitations and such from the natural compulsion to competition, and combat with resulting violence being a logical conclusion. Really, his head got cut off (virtually) because he was an opponent in a fair but violent conflict (again virtually over an arbitrary challenge). This violence is acceptable because at it's core competition is health and no one is being actually hurt, further emphasised by the insta-resurrections in respawn.

But rape is not about defeating in combat in fair competition, it is about excessive and sadistic domination of the much weaker, games are balanced so that each side has a fair chance of winning and should want to to do to one as they do to the other. Either score a goal or get a frag, but how can you have mutual rape?

Any rape simulator would struggle to be a "game", as the Japanese Rape Sims like Rape-play is, it's nothing but procrastination before showing a sex scene, you cannot "lose" this game, it's a glorified choose-your-own-adventure as is inevitable with such an objective. It doesn't fit at least my definition of a game, even though it is a computer program with control inputs.

Games are about CHALLENGE! If there was ever going to be any rape depicted in any game it would not be the playable character who is the perpetrator, but is rather the target of the monstrous individuals. I do remember a Very VERY Not-Suitable-For-Work flash game where you play a hunter in the woods top down shooter perspective, and you are assailed from all sides by naked men who - if they get close enough - will tackle you to the ground and anally rape you. Unless you shoot them first.

It worked as a game. The gameplay was at its core a basic top-down shooter but there was a greater incentive to be a quick and accurate shot as your character suffered rather than the cliche "you are dead" type of game over, the game over affect you on a more relate-able level as mortality loses it's significance with instant respawn.

So, for human player vs human player, only violent conflict works. It's impractical to have "mutual rape" where both are trying to rape each other, that's crazy and contradictory. It makes sense for guys to use violence against each other to dominate territory.

For human vs inhuman computer, it's possible to have a scenario where the computer can play the depraved and dominant with the human role playing will have a more visceral negative incentive to not fail. Take for example the game Left 4 Dead, what if the zombie virus that turns everyone insane didn't just induce cannibalistic tendencies, but also sexual violence. Normal sane humans have resorted to gang rape for far less than this. Director of 2004's Dawn of the Dead hinted heavily at the idea that the rabid zombies raped their victims but couldn't be explicit without risking the commercial-suicide of an NC-17 rating or Wal-Mart refusing to stock DVDs, etc.

But the question is: would you play a game where there was even the possibility that failure meant your character gets raped or sexually assaulted if you fail? Death is trivial when you can be instantly resurrected when you load from a save or respawn, but some things you can't just rewind the clock. It would give me extra effort to not die, rather than mere fear of having to repeat progress or lose a point.

 

[verdant monkai]

It isn't (matter of opinion i know)

I have never been raped or dead, but people who have been raped can still go see films/go for a run/swim and recover and just enjoy life. dead people cant.

 

[JediMB]

My initial argument would be that rape is a form of torture, both physically, mentally, and emotionally, and therefor seen as more sadistic than outright killing, but it's a very difficult subject.

I'd agree in the case of systematic/repeated rape. Otherwise I consider it a form of assault [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault].

The ideal that rape is sick and murder is simply bad is very much part of society, but how it got there is up for debate. I wouldn't say it's a religious thing, because the taboo of sex (a religious issue) is very different from the taboo of rape. And I'm sure there are plenty of atheists who feel more unnerved by the notion of rape then they do by that of murder.

For your latter point, I'd say it's a case of us getting partially desensitized to murder/death, since we are exposed to it in media a lot more than we are rape.

I wouldn't be surprised, though, if the exaggerated shame forced upon rape victims stems from the ancient view that a virgin woman is worth more than one who has had sex. So by being raped a woman has been devalued, and should feel ashamed.

Of course the reality of the situation is that the perpetrator is the one who should feel ashamed, since he/she is the one who has done wrong upon another.

I think it might also be because our sexuality is at the core of our very being. It's a primal urge.

If that part of you gets assaulted and tortured it basically scars one of the prime foundations of what makes you a living being.

It might sound a bit silly, but that's the best that I can explain it.

The big question (which I don't have the answer to) is... what sort of emotional impact did rape (and sex slavery) have on people in, say, pre-Judeo-Christian societies? Or more modern societies that weren't affected by the big three "Middle Eastern" religions? Or non-human animals?

At least in the present, I believe strongly that it is a social issue, rather than an inherently genetic one. I don't think we're programmed from birth to rate sexual assault as so much worse than non-sexual assault, but that it's something we're taught to think.

 

[natster43]

Well when you are killed that is it, you are dead, but when you are raped, it can lead to years of trauma and suffering for the victim, so that is why it would be considered worse.

 

[Zorg Machine]

I hate when people say that death is preferable to rape. There are a lot of rape victims who manage to find happiness afterwards but not very many murder victims can say the same thing.

OT: Rape is worse to deal with because we have to deal with a living person who is suffering instead of just a dead person who needs to be avenged.

 

[Erttheking]

Obviously, rape is not worth than death. In many cases people who are raped do not resist out of fear, often the fear of being murdered, so the idea that rape is a worse experience or that people fear rape more is obviously false.

I don't think you have the authority to make that judgement.

Actually, rape cannot be worse than death, since living is the basis of experience. That is, death cannot be a better alternative, because death is the be all end all of YOU, you know?

There is more to moral judgement than merely measurements of pain and trauma, you know.

Hm, nice reasoning there pal, so the guys in I have no mouth and I must scream were better off being tormented for all of eternity by a sadistic AI instead of being dead, because that would have been the end of their existence, yeah there's never any torment so great that death is a preferable alternative, that's why people never ever commit suicide...I was being sarcastic in case that was painfully obvious.

The notion that death is any better alternative to pain/trauma is an irrational fallacy

Doesn't stop people from using that line of thinking though

Oh yeah, I could be kept alive, tortured within an inch of my life for a hundred years, no, a thousand years, to the point where I can't even remember my name, there is no end in sight, and wanting to die is "illogical". Bullshit. Living may be all of our existence, but sometimes existence can really be unbearable.

Using the extreme and completely unlikely end of a given spectrum does not disprove a given point. try again without all the annoying hyperbole.

Captcha: Basket Case. How Appropriate..

Oh, annoying am I? I can't help but feel that after going through endless torments of agony that wanting to die is the logical things but nooooooooooo apparently, that's "illogical" I should want to keep living for some reason.

 

[OneCatch]

This applies to games much more than other mediums too. Can you imagine the uproar if you could rape someone in a mainstream game? But killing people, well, I'm sure you can finish this thought off.

Is this a societal thing, caused by the Abrahamic religions?

Probably because in most games you are usually engaging in 'legal' killing (like in war or self defence), or are fighting some kind of 'morally right' fight (Half Life 2 for example). Obviously there are exceptions (Manhunt), but these games tend to create media uproar anyway.

As for you feeling more squeamish about it, it might simply be that a rape scene is likely to be more protracted than a quick decapitation, so you have more time to dwell on it.

It could even be that a film that features rape will tend be more serious, and therefore have more character development - you feel for the character because the film has made you care about them.
For example; the 'Saw' series is gratuitously violent, but I don't feel the slightest bit of emotion while watching it because I have no emotional link the the characters being killed in obscenely painful ways.
In contrast, 'Dogville' mostly isn't graphic in content, but because of the way it it written and filmed, it is one of the most horrific things I have ever seen.

I suspect that there aren't wider social reasons; after all, murder is considered a much more serious crime than rape in most Western societies.

 

[suitepee7]

because you have to live with what happened to you in sexual assault, but in death, you can't suffer any more. how i would see it anyway. thats not to say thats what i think, but it is probably why some people see it that way

 

[odanhammer]

I will just ask a simple question.
What is worse , being forced into painful sex , where you are beaten , hurt , abused , and yet alive to recall that time for the rest of your life OR being killed, in which although you might have a few seconds before you die , no one knows what happens , but we do know that you aren't going to be recalling it for the rest of your life.

 

[Treblaine]

Well, since the advice given to rape victims isn't "kill yourself", then there's no logical reason behind it, since death is still seen as a worse fate.

So probably just that people think rape is icky, while violence is cool, with no real logical analysis of how much harm each one generally inflicts.

Throughout history many have resorted to deliberately ending their life to avoid being raped. But how much this was to avoid the suffering itself and how much they were coerced into it by shame that society would put on them if they were raped... it's hard to say. Realise most rapes are committed under the threat of death, mutilation or some other horrible fate.

I think it's the principal.

There is a difference between shooting someone who is shooting at you (or could be), it's a relatively reasonable thing to do. Even someone who isn't immediately a threat like a wounded enemy crawling away, they remain a threat until they are totally destroyed. That is war. In war you can justify killing for an objective, and the justification of that objective justifies the killing and very often it can lead to the catch-22-dilemma where each side is trying to kill the other because the other is trying to kill them. Fighting for the sake of fighting. Like how every country that has nuclear weapon they claim to be a deterrent against... other countries having nuclear weapons!

That's fighting for (often irrational) practical reason of self preservation. But what practical purpose is there for anyone to inflict such pain and humiliation on a defenceless individual for nothing but their own sexual satisfaction and prowess? No higher purpose, it is the ultimate selfish act. Deep down in our most primitive animal instinct it has a crude role in procreation, but it is the most callous and counter-productive approach, as successful procreation requires far more than mere impregnation but a loving and supportive family that cannot exist founded on such traumatic assault. Well, certain religions have founded on forcing rape victims to marry their abuser, but the woman is a de-facto slave in such scenarios. But that's the genetic reasons for why the motivations are there, the motivations are the worst parts of human nature: avarice, apathy, cruelty and extreme-ego.

This may not immediately apparent but it is worn out in practice, where in fiction violence and gore is justified in conflict for what each side considers a goal worth dying for. But we see that rape is not justified so is not depicted as being what relatable characters do. We are influenced by our conditioning.

Violence can be cool because it can be a symbol of a relatable individual being victorious over their opponent you both find antagonistic.
Rape is horrifying for the victim is no opponent that is a threat to the perpetrator, but a victim. There is an inherent injustice to this that cannot be overcome.

 

[Scorpid]

In fact I would say we see this play out in real life already. I was watching Girl with the Dragon Tattoo in theaters and there is a scene SPOILER where the protagonist rapes her rapist. At the first scene where she is raped everyone gasps and what not and when SHE rapes him (not in a fun way) all the men in the audience still gasped like they did the first time, but all the ladies cheered. I was confused by this till I thought of how much women think about rape in their daily life (again not in a good way).

I've only seen the original Swedish version, personally... but I'm a man, and my reactions were pretty much as follows:

1) When Lisbeth was raped, I felt uncomfortable and angry at Bjurman,

2) When Bjurman was raped, I felt uncomfortable... but satisfied in knowing that he had it coming.

My point wasn't that if he did or didn't have it coming, it was more the crowds reactions and my theory as to why. But if you really want to get into it i'll say this.

If the situation had been reversed and Lisbeth was the bad guy who first raped Bjurman and then Bjurman was the techno geek badass who then raped lisbeth back, the reactions wouldn't of been cheering by anyone or 'oh she had it coming'. What's morally wrong is wrong for both genders.

 

[Robert Ewing]

I think rape is mostly based around trauma, and then the paranoia that will surely follow. But depicting it is fine. I mean, books, movies, TV shows have been depicting it for donkeys years.

 

[minimacker]

Well, back in the Victorian era, the standard of high-class changed. For example, how high-class women hired "milkmaids" to nurture (breastfeed) their children, because their breasts were too important. It was a shame to see the breast of a high-class lady.
Death was still a common thing back then. They didn't have vaccines or cures for any infections from wounds or sickness.

Fastforward a thousand years, it has now become a standard and law to not show anything. Death itself is very uncommon in western countries in society itself, but still around in our way of seeing things.

 

[spartan231490]

Maybe it's because the trauma of forced sexual activity is seen to be worse than just being killed. I mean, which seems worse, dead or scarred for the forseeable future, possibly even life?

This. Rape emotionally ruins a person for a very very long time, often for the rest of their lives.

Also, death is an avoidable part of life. Everyone dies, so when someone is killed, the bad part isn't really the fact that they are now dead, it's that they were robbed of time. However, rape is not an avoidable part of life. People expect to be able to live their entire lives without being raped, so when you rape someone you are subjecting them to a horrible situation that they wouldn't have otherwise experienced, as well as the emotional fallout there-after.

 

[Suicidejim]

Because we've glorified killing others to the point where a huge percentage of the media we consume features chisel-jawed heroes carving their way through wave after wave of 'bad guys' without even bothering to justify it or feel particularly guilty. Physical conflict is the fastest way to create conflict in a story and get the adrenalin pumping, so it gets thrown in everywhere, and we're desensitized to it by now. Besides, there are various scenarios where violence can probably be justified, or at least understood as a last-resort option. Rape, on the other hand, is still a taboo and rarely gets placed in stories, is pretty much never perpetrated by the hero, and there's never really a situation that comes up where the only viable answer is 'rape someone.'.