Why the hype with Final Fantasy?

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Jak The Great

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Akalistos said:
Jak The Great said:
Akalistos said:
Jak The Great said:
you don't get it. End of story. stop making us justify why we like it.
Maybe there's nothing to get. Have you ever thought about this one.
my post applies to you too.
Why? Why is it a problem that people doesn't like it? Why can't you see that maybe you are wrong and still love it? It's a possibility and you can't really call bullshit on it.
Now where did I say that it was a problem not to like it? my problem is with these threads and trying to answer the impossible question. I like it. you don't. move on. there is nothing about 'being wrong' involved with this (which is subjective to begin with).

EDIT

@ Blind Sight.

Wasn't meant to be hate fueled, just got caught on a short temper day.
 

Akalistos

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Tsaba said:
Akalistos said:
Tsaba said:
Akalistos said:
Jak The Great said:
Akalistos said:
Jak The Great said:
you don't get it. End of story. stop making us justify why we like it.
Maybe there's nothing to get. Have you ever thought about this one.
my post applies to you too.
Why? Why is it a problem that people doesn't like it? Why can't you see that maybe you are wrong and still love it? It's a possibility and you can't really call bullshit on it.
Dude, chill, it's a game, and it's less about right and wrong and more about taste in games. That's what he's saying, now don't be a troll, and take a breather.
*read your first post*
There's absolutly no mention of taste. For that matter, you just imply there's only one answer (aka: making your "no right and wrong" argument moot.) and it's to love it. END OF STORY (if i can stole that from your very first post)

BTW: Sarcasm is all in the tone of voice... it doesn't work with just word on a forum post. Well at least if you don't blow it out of proportion. Which you didn't.
Jak The Great said:
you don't get it. End of story. stop making us justify why we like it.
It doesn't have to be spelled out, it's pretty much summed up here in the meanest way possible, but, hey, your the one ranting like a moron who didn't play the game. BTW you forgot to describe Barret's character flaws.
Fanboy Fan-Rage activated.

He got a special segment... don't you worry.
 

Akalistos

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Jak The Great said:
Akalistos said:
Jak The Great said:
Akalistos said:
Jak The Great said:
you don't get it. End of story. stop making us justify why we like it.
Maybe there's nothing to get. Have you ever thought about this one.
my post applies to you too.
Why? Why is it a problem that people doesn't like it? Why can't you see that maybe you are wrong and still love it? It's a possibility and you can't really call bullshit on it.
Now where did I say that it was a problem not to like it? my problem is with these threads and trying to answer the impossible question. I like it. you don't. move on. there is nothing about 'being wrong' involved with this (which is subjective to begin with).

EDIT

@ Blind Sight.

Wasn't meant to be hate fueled, just got caught on a short temper day.
Yeah, that's cool. At least, you kinda apologize with that edit(or justify yourself). I'm not one to hold that over someone's head.
 

LogicNProportion

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Akalistos said:
LogicNProportion said:
Tactical Fugitive said:
Hello dear Escapists. Please explain why Final Fantasy are good games. Because, you see, I have played a few of the FF titles, I've even gone through the trouble of beating FF VII, which I was told, was oh so special, and you know what? I don't get it. The main character is almost always annoying and stupid, the dialogues are lame (ok, maybe bad translation on older games is to be blames), the story is always mostly the same and everything in general is ridiculously naive. I can only compliment the art style and the music, which are pretty good - but that ain't the main parts of an rpg.

And what the hell is the big deal with aeris's death? Good riddance!
Meh, for me the characters are too underdeveloped to care about them.

So tell me, why do you like Final Fantasy games? What's so special about them?
O_O Hahahahahahhahaha!

To get on topic. Why something is hyped and why it's good/enjoyed are different things.

First of all, everyone has different taste, and just because someone likes FF, doesn't mean they like ALL the FF's! I love 6 and 7, but 12 13 are disgusting to me! It's about the little things.

The one you played, 7, will always be a milestone and a big deal for 2 reasons. First, it was one of the first RPG's that were in 3D, which was pretty cool. Second, it was the FF that made the series mainstream.

Speaking of which, most fans of 7 were fans of it when it first came out. And just like it being 3D was a big deal back in the day, most of the stuff you saw as no biggie were as well, such as Aeris/Aerith's death, cut scenes, the story, etc.

Personally, I still love the environment and story of FF7. While a lot of them share similarities, it's no more than BioWare games do. If anything, FF7 is special because it probably has the most filled out environment. There's a LOT of background stuff they try and cram in there to explain how things work, from the planet to mako to engines. And while most people find it obnoxious, I'm a text-whore, so it's for me.

Not so much the characters, but they all helped me get through a crappy time in my life, and thus, I'm a proponent for competent remake, etc. As such, Cloud and Sephiroth will always have soft spots in my heart.

Glad you liked the art and music, that's always something that FF delivers on.

As for gameplay, again, it's all about taste. I wish I could see more turn-based stuff on today's market, but no such luck. But, I'm cool with it. I'm pretty vast in my tastes when it comes to gaming.

Overall, I love the older FF's, ironically til 8, where things got so convoluted, it disappeared up it's own ass. Though, 10 is an exception.

As far as hype goes, you should never follow hype. Be excited about it, but there's always hype about everything, and it you let it catch you, you will only become disappointed in the end...
I think most people love it because it's their first RPG (In my case, it was FF9 and i found it much better) but i can understand why he don't like it. Hell, i don't like it and here's why.

1) Bland Character: They all act one dimensional through most of the game. Most of the description that I can make for any character is about 3 to 4 word max. Worst yet, the only one with a legitimate reason to fight is Barret (till it evident that Sephiroth want the apocalypse later in disk 3). Before that, they all got bullshit reason to go along.
Cloud: Money
Tifa: Cloud
Caith Sid: Job description... (Somehow i can't see a spy nor a office worker using a robot on top of a robot... it's just to stupid)
Cid: They took his plane (that was payed by, owned, used and serviced by Shinra)
Red XII: Father issue / request (He should have stay in Gongaga with the old man. But the old man told him to understand the world a be like his father (spoiler) he needed to travel.
Yuffie: Loot... her's and yours. (It's imply that she need that to return his village into a fighting force against Shinra... but they didn't even move during the second attack at Shinra's tower nor she have given said loot to her people making it Pointless!)
Vincent: He had a Nightmare... I'm not kidding. He just got a nightmare.
Sephiroth: He want his mommy to acknowledge him. (what i can't understand here is why. Beside, he most have known later that he was just infused with more of her DNA then most people. Better yet, it doesn't matter because he's a clone and the original body still lies in the deep of the Nibleheim Reactor with Cloud original body on top of him.)

That will be all for now.
I would say those were over-simplified, but that wouldn't even be correct as most aren't even accurate...

Cloud: Money, true, but money is a powerful factor. Keep in mind that he became a mercenary not just because he and Zack planned on doing it when they got to Midgar, but because he's DRIVEN to. He literally can't stop himself, because he's not himself. Later on in the game, he's doing what he's doing as party of his vendetta, and discovering himself. Plus, in the choice that is accepted as canon, Cloud made a promise to Tifa to always protect her. And let's not forget that once Sephiroth skewered Aerith, his mind was definitely made up...

Tifa: She's a powerful, driven woman who wants to do what she can help. She's very motherly, so not only is she going to help AVALANCHE, an anti-Shinra group (Shinra took everything from her), but she would stick around anyway for Marlene, Barret's adopted daughter. She sticks around for Cloud, because she knows something isn't right, and as she says, even though she didn't care much for Cloud for the majority of their time they were in their childhood, when Cloud left for SOLDIER, Tifa pried for any info she could to see if he got anywhere. Plus, and this could be said for any of the characters, if you had god-like powers, and knowledge of the planet in danger, and knowledge of the means to stop it, would you not give it a shot, especially with Tifa's morals?

Cait Sith: Mogs/Moogles are common sights in Final Fantasy games, and the amusement park of sorts, the Golden Saucer, would probably have such cute, cuddly imagery. Chances are, the big Mog Reeve's robot (the cat) sits on, was always autonomous, as some sort of attendant. Reeve's good with robots, chances are he could reprogram it, especially since Golden Saucer is run by Shinra. Same technology. Using a cat on the Mog as a hook to blend in is exactly what a spy would do. Plus, the Mog is obviously physically strong. This helps the cat compensate for it's weak body, when it would come down to combat situations. Later on in the game, none of this really even matters! Reeve has a change of heart, and then acts as a double agent because of his guilt from working for such a corrupt company. However, he makes note to tell Barret that AVALANCHE is hardly better, having killed people in destroying the mako reactors. It shows that before all else, Reeve is for the people, not the planet.

Cid: Shinra stole his dream of being the first man in space. His dream! His only dream a country bumpkin like him could look forward to! If that doesn't give any resentment, then I don't know what would. Deep down, Cid is fatherly, and looks out for people. He certainly didn't crisp Shera, which ended up actually doing more damage to his dream then even Shinra. When you meet him, he has nothing else left, especially since Rufus just showed up not only to NOT reinstate the Space Program, but to steal his last pride and joy, the Tiny Bronco (the plane). Having become a Shinra fugitive by resisting the president and it's army, and escaping with well-known terrorists, he has no choice but to join the enemy of his enemy. He's an old man, he doesn't have much left to look forward to anyway. His last blaze of glory, in his mind.

Red XIII(13): A personal vow can be very powerful as well, even more-so than cash. Red's or Nanaki's, is to be better than his coward-father. Red is also not only part of a race that is VERY close to the planet, but he was raised by people very close to the planet as well. Once his grandfather dies, and he finds out his father was warrior, just like him, he makes another vow to protect the planet, even if it is to kill him, just as his father died protecting him and Cosmo Canyon. Shinra also abducted him, experimented on him (and with Hojo, that means torture without any humane concern), and tried to have him force-breed with a girl dumped into his tank. His retribution of how he feels about Shinra should be clear as soon as when his cage opens, he leaps on Hojo in an attempt to tear out his throat. In expanded information, on his episode of the Anime Special On the Way to a Smile, it shows he also wishes to leave a legacy, as his race is long-lived, he knows he will out live all of friends and 'human' family. The only person he can confide this to is Vincent, who tells him that he will even out live Red! The two make a promise to meet at least once a year then, as friends.

Yuffie: As an optimistic, brave girl who has had to grow up with a devastated homeland thanks to Shinra, she simply wishes for her proud people to gain independence once more. As said earlier, she knows the means to at least TRY to achieve victory, so as a strong person, she will do so. In this case, it is the conquest to collect materia, and use it. Now, materia is powerful, but anyone knows it's not THAT powerful. She's just one girl. However, she is also disappointed that so little else of her people care, or rather, are too afraid or apathetic to do anything. She wishes to ignite a fire, perhaps, with will lead to a full-blown revolt. And while they would probably fail...she is at least acting for what she believes in. Unfortunately, this means she wants YOUR materia, and thus, why she travels with you for the first half of the game. For the second half, she is told by her father, if you did her event, to travel with you and to stop Sephiroth, so then they may take down Shinra. In the end, Cloud and co. kill A LOT of Shinra personnel. Why wouldn't she want to travel with them? So many opportunities...

Vincent: Out of all of those half-assed descriptions you gave, this one made me rage more than any other. You obviously have NO IDEA who Vincent really is. Vincent is a figure who was betrayed by his own romanticism. In fact, because of his at-first-complacency, and then, because he did not simply stomp out Hojo (he was a Turk, basically CIA/KGB, he could have within legal rights), he was the cause to Sephiroth, and the current crisis of the game. This inner guilt of his sins, coupled with the convenient chance to strike against his past failures is damn good reason why he would come out of his coffin to put some holes in a few choice people. In fact, the previously cited rule of "If you had the power, would you not try?" applies to him more than anyone. He's by-far the most powerful character of the heroes (in the fluff, not gameplay) because of his transformations and his near-immortality. And let's not add on the factor that he COULD be Sephiroth's dad. Vincent is the only one to confirm that Hojo is the father, and this might have been to shove off some self-guilt for the time-being.

Barret: Shinra took everything he had; including his right arm, except for his best friend's daughter, Marlene. And...that's about it. His cause is simple revenge, plus the small bonus of helping the Planet. He doesn't think his way through anything, as Reeve mentioned in my previous example, and out of all of them, while having a good reason, he has the least amount of reason to be committing this hard to something. This just shows, if anything, that he is a good man with his heart in the right place. Sometimes, that's all you need to confront something you disagree with.

Aeris/Aerith: Aerith, while dying in-game, probably had one of the largest burdens out of the whole party. She is the last in a race of people attuned with the Planet, charged with protecting it. Let's forget that despite appearing to take everything in stride with a steady smile and aura of optimism, Shinra killed her father as a baby, killed her boyfriend (Zack), killed everyone near her out of surveillance, abducted her and her mother, Ifalna, more torture/experimentation, killed her mother, and destroyed her people's world around her (plus she would know of this, as Ancients/Cetra could speak to ghosts, as she spoke to the spirits of her ancestors). Yeah, let's just forget all of that, and stick with her racial obligation that is reminded to her day-in, day-out by her dead ancestors, that she must protect the planet. And so, she went out alone, not wishing to bring harm to any of her friends, and died in the cause. And even in death, she gave Cloud and the others strength multiple times, Cloud meaning to live on, and her will being strong enough to cast Holy, which was one of the only reasons the planet wasn't blown to bits in the end. In a bitter-sweet motion, actually, Holy is a spell that is said to destroy EVERYTHING that does harm to the planet...including humans. So it was really the lifestream that really did the dirty deed to rescuing everyone in the end...

Sephiroth: One of the most symbolic characters in gaming. People who enjoy/despise him for 'looking as he does', etc are entitled to their opinion, but if you don't get what the whole character is about, then you're really missing out. I'm not going to list all that here, but I'm going to try my best of why HE himself did what he did. First off, your details here made no sense...at all. Okay, so Sephiroth, when he first went insane, was because of the JENOVA cells within his body, being taken control of JENOVA, which he had visited earlier that day, giving him some mind-fuck as is, because that was told to him by Hojo to be his mother. (Lucrecia is Sephiroth's real mother, but he was never allowed to see her, and vice-versa.) Seeing such a monster to be his mother helped him study up on his 'heritage', which were really poorly researched notes done up by hack-scientists who wrote the stuff down before they found out what JENOVA truly was. In this research, Jenova (I'm tired of writing in all caps) is classified as an Ancient. Humanity betrayed the Ancients long ago, and with Jenova seeing an opening in Sephiroth's will, basically brain washed him into leading him in the right way to 'kill everyone to avenge their species'. But first, Sephiroth takes a stroll to Jenova's tube, to release his 'mother', which leaves himself open. He basically gets bisected by Cloud (which is probably why he ditched his legs later on) and falls into the lifestream, which is actually souls, and the pure knowledge of those souls. For years, Sephiroth rides along the lifestream in the planet, his hatred, rage, and strong will allowing him to live, until he is carried to the Northern Crater. In his time in the lifestream, he learns so many things about the planet and magic, but not once did he learn he wasn't Cetra. However, he also forgot fragments of himself in an attempt to survive mostly intact. Lastly, his will gaining so much power, he was actually able to take control of Jenova. From his mako-crystal prison, Sephiroth's will allows him to take control of pieces of Jenova and those with his cells around the world. While he is himself, because of his destroyed memories, he is still influenced slightly by Jenova's behavior (she's actually a form of virus colony) and that is to exterminate the inhabitants of the planet, gain in power, and then spread. By the end, there is still speculation of who was in control: Jenova, or Sephiroth. In Advent Children, Sephiroth has forgotten more of himself, but still retains Jenova's instincts and drive. He also retains his hatred for Cloud and the world. In fact, he didn't even have to materialize himself in Advent Children with the three brothers. He could have just done the thing with the lifestream, safe in death, and gone on with his goals. He's driven to revenge that much. As far as his character, he is highly arrogant, and it has been stated that the only way he was beaten in Advent Children (after actually becoming stronger) is because not only was he at 1/3 strength (all three brothers were supposed to combine with the remaining 'alive' Jenova cells), but also because he toys with Cloud instead of killing him when he had the chance. He also has a god-complex, and Eudipus-complex (he 'loves' his 'mother', but hates his father, Hojo), a messiah-complex, and a bunch of other negative traits. Before he turned 'bad', he was actually a pretty nice guy, if not a bit cold and reserved.

And THAT is why I believe, sir or madame, without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, you did not do your research correctly, nor actually played even the first game. I don't mind people saying their opinions, but when you state such as you did as facts, action had to have been taken.

Good day sir!

TL;DR: You suck at research. :p
 

Akalistos

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LogicNProportion said:
Tactical Fugitive said:
Hello dear Escapists. Please explain why Final Fantasy are good games. Because, you see, I have played a few of the FF titles, I've even gone through the trouble of beating FF VII, which I was told, was oh so special, and you know what? I don't get it. The main character is almost always annoying and stupid, the dialogues are lame (ok, maybe bad translation on older games is to be blames), the story is always mostly the same and everything in general is ridiculously naive. I can only compliment the art style and the music, which are pretty good - but that ain't the main parts of an rpg.

And what the hell is the big deal with aeris's death? Good riddance!
Meh, for me the characters are too underdeveloped to care about them.

So tell me, why do you like Final Fantasy games? What's so special about them?
O_O Hahahahahahhahaha!

To get on topic. Why something is hyped and why it's good/enjoyed are different things.

First of all, everyone has different taste, and just because someone likes FF, doesn't mean they like ALL the FF's! I love 6 and 7, but 12 13 are disgusting to me! It's about the little things.

The one you played, 7, will always be a milestone and a big deal for 2 reasons. First, it was one of the first RPG's that were in 3D, which was pretty cool. Second, it was the FF that made the series mainstream.

Speaking of which, most fans of 7 were fans of it when it first came out. And just like it being 3D was a big deal back in the day, most of the stuff you saw as no biggie were as well, such as Aeris/Aerith's death, cut scenes, the story, etc.

Personally, I still love the environment and story of FF7. While a lot of them share similarities, it's no more than BioWare games do. If anything, FF7 is special because it probably has the most filled out environment. There's a LOT of background stuff they try and cram in there to explain how things work, from the planet to mako to engines. And while most people find it obnoxious, I'm a text-whore, so it's for me.

Not so much the characters, but they all helped me get through a crappy time in my life, and thus, I'm a proponent for competent remake, etc. As such, Cloud and Sephiroth will always have soft spots in my heart.

Glad you liked the art and music, that's always something that FF delivers on.

As for gameplay, again, it's all about taste. I wish I could see more turn-based stuff on today's market, but no such luck. But, I'm cool with it. I'm pretty vast in my tastes when it comes to gaming.

Overall, I love the older FF's, ironically til 8, where things got so convoluted, it disappeared up it's own ass. Though, 10 is an exception.

As far as hype goes, you should never follow hype. Be excited about it, but there's always hype about everything, and it you let it catch you, you will only become disappointed in the end...
3) Barret : He is the only character that have the motivation to attack Shinra. (Except for Yuffie but she doesn't do anything to correct Gongaga's situation in the end. Making her goal pointless.) His town, Wife, friends and neighbors (the midgar's one) have been killed. His best friend went on a murder spree and kill himself in a fit of madness before his eyes. He is the sole caretaker of his best friend's daughter, which she'll be in harm's way if he doesn't stop Sephiroth. Yet, the biggest problem is this: He never contribute to the plot in any way. In fact, i think that he should have been the main character but isn't du to xenophobia or something equally lame. We see for most of the game Barret doing the wallpaper in most scene. Not only does that make his backstory pointless but also make his character completely useless. People say Cath Sid or Yuffie is the most useless character but
Caith Sid: He use his robot body to fetch the Black material. Since he can't really die and all.
Yuffie: She's the best fighter in the game... if you know how to use her.

Barret is just a run of the mill Character that could have been easily been replace by Bigg or Wedge or even Jesse with no chance except the sprite. He's also the character that when through the least (if not at all) character development of them all. The whole saving the planet is just a facade as Barret use Avalanche just to get back at Shinra, his adoptive daughter be damn. In Midgar, who leave Marlene to a total stranger to care for while he goes to shinra tower? Who then ask same stranger to keep her and leave the city? City i might add surrounded by random encounter. A stranger that have absolutely no way in fighting in case the worst happen, by the way. Which lead to Marlene to be capture to force the party into blackmail by Shinra. All that lead to a unsatisfying destruction of Midgar by a weapon. Great googly mooglely, There's so much potential here that it hurt and they were too retard to use it. And I'll leave you with this question; What is worst, to try and fail or to fail to try?
 

LogicNProportion

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Akalistos said:
LogicNProportion said:
Tactical Fugitive said:
Hello dear Escapists. Please explain why Final Fantasy are good games. Because, you see, I have played a few of the FF titles, I've even gone through the trouble of beating FF VII, which I was told, was oh so special, and you know what? I don't get it. The main character is almost always annoying and stupid, the dialogues are lame (ok, maybe bad translation on older games is to be blames), the story is always mostly the same and everything in general is ridiculously naive. I can only compliment the art style and the music, which are pretty good - but that ain't the main parts of an rpg.

And what the hell is the big deal with aeris's death? Good riddance!
Meh, for me the characters are too underdeveloped to care about them.

So tell me, why do you like Final Fantasy games? What's so special about them?
O_O Hahahahahahhahaha!

To get on topic. Why something is hyped and why it's good/enjoyed are different things.

First of all, everyone has different taste, and just because someone likes FF, doesn't mean they like ALL the FF's! I love 6 and 7, but 12 13 are disgusting to me! It's about the little things.

The one you played, 7, will always be a milestone and a big deal for 2 reasons. First, it was one of the first RPG's that were in 3D, which was pretty cool. Second, it was the FF that made the series mainstream.

Speaking of which, most fans of 7 were fans of it when it first came out. And just like it being 3D was a big deal back in the day, most of the stuff you saw as no biggie were as well, such as Aeris/Aerith's death, cut scenes, the story, etc.

Personally, I still love the environment and story of FF7. While a lot of them share similarities, it's no more than BioWare games do. If anything, FF7 is special because it probably has the most filled out environment. There's a LOT of background stuff they try and cram in there to explain how things work, from the planet to mako to engines. And while most people find it obnoxious, I'm a text-whore, so it's for me.

Not so much the characters, but they all helped me get through a crappy time in my life, and thus, I'm a proponent for competent remake, etc. As such, Cloud and Sephiroth will always have soft spots in my heart.

Glad you liked the art and music, that's always something that FF delivers on.

As for gameplay, again, it's all about taste. I wish I could see more turn-based stuff on today's market, but no such luck. But, I'm cool with it. I'm pretty vast in my tastes when it comes to gaming.

Overall, I love the older FF's, ironically til 8, where things got so convoluted, it disappeared up it's own ass. Though, 10 is an exception.

As far as hype goes, you should never follow hype. Be excited about it, but there's always hype about everything, and it you let it catch you, you will only become disappointed in the end...
Rebuttal part 2. Yeah, i thought it would be better to broke it to piece so you'll have a easier time to retort to specific point instead of a long drawn out post.

2) Bullshit story: It far from being well written. (spoiler's aplanty mate) Like i said before, the Character haven't have motivation, and so is the villain. But this is where it shine.

Basically, Holy is a spell that can only be cast if the caster is kill during the summoning. So here, Sephiroth does himself in by killing Aeris. Funny when you think about it. The only thing he can do is link his soul with the planet to stop Holy... Which he does until he get out. Why? He can clearly control Cloud because he's a clone of original Cloud mix with Jenova. He got 12 Apostles ready to do his bidding. (As Film Brain would have put it: SYMBOLISM!!!!1!)

The only motivation Cloud has to fight Sephiroth is revenge. Revenge for something he probably would have done to stop his nemesis before someone else took care of it. His own trouble past make it also a big chunk of the story... but it doesn't matter at this point because he's a clone. He's memories is clearly not his own. And somehow, dunking himself into mako seem to imply he fetch his own soul back. That too involve some problem as in, How come people got comatose when they are dunk. Shouldn't the implication being that souls enter the body? Shouldn't they become schizophreniac instead?

As for the rest, they have little to no impact on the story. It's basically a retelling of the bible in which Judas Iscariot is the Hero and Jesus is the villain bend on killing people... at least that's what i get from it.

Third Part coming soon
Rebuttal-Rebuttal Part 2!

Holy does not require you to die. Aerith just died. She was not expecting it, so she didn't really sacrifice herself, contrary to what many FF7 fans will have you believe. She wasn't expecting to die. Sephiroth killing her (or more like a Jenova part taking his form as per Sephiroth's command to lead Cloud along) was a wrench in the works. I didn't understand the rest of your first paragraph, but I think I'll try to combat it. Sephiroth's magical will is just strong enough hold it back, thanks to mental abilities, etc he picked up during his little swim in the lifestream. Doesn't make much sense, I know, but he does.

I'm not gonna list Cloud's motivations again...

But as I see it, you're either looking at this in terms of too much science, or too much fantasy. Final Fantasy 7 is clearly Sci-Fi. Just is. No way around it. Clone for one, was actually a mistranslation when the game went to English. What Cloud and the other 'Numbers' are, are more along the lines of 'people who were gathered by Hojo after the Nibelheim incident because they were alive, then were subject to experiments which were to mimic Sephiroth's enhancement, but really they kind of just injected more Jenova into them'. (Tifa was originally going to be one, but was rescued by her teacher, Zangan.) This experimentation process doesn't make too much sense, but it doesn't have to, because Hojo is Hojo, as he is a mad-scientist. You may ask why Shinra would let him do this, and well, that's because Hojo not only has secrets aplenty...but because as the provider of Sephiroth, Shinra's greatest asset, he's a got tons of power in the company. It should also be pointed out that the experimented few of Nibelhiem were not the only ones with Jenova cells. Shinra SOLDIER's got them regularly as part of their enhancement process, as well as being infused with mako energy.

As far Cloud's memories. Due to pure trauma from Nibelhiem (losing his town, seeing Tifa 'die', his mom dying, Zack 'dying') and mako addiction/poisoning, Cloud is not only comatose...he's mostly a blank slate. It's implied that too much mako equates to you losing a bit of yourself, as Sephiroth does each time he took a dunk himself. Also, Cloud has newly implanted Jenova cells, which Jenova 'herself' having a 'copy' ability. As Zack hauls Cloud around for about a month, he tells Cloud just about everything he's seen and done. With his brain like a sponge, and the Jenova cells basically writing Zack's words with ink into his skull, Cloud wakes up thinking:

"Yo, this is what I remember, this must be me."

The final push into this stage of Cloud's mental-state is probably caused by Zack actually dying in his arms then. A lot of people do this in real life when they endure too much stress for them to handle. To compensate, their brain unplugs and gets rid of that personality, and kind of reboots a new one. There ARE cases of it. Another game example however, is Reaver, from Fable 2. But I won't get into that.

As how Cloud got his memories back...this is really never fully described. This scene, where Tifa enters his mind and kind of jig-saws him back into place, is probably the most 'fantasy' the game gets, besides materia/magic. It is implied however, that due to 'magic' when Tifa and Cloud took a mako-dunk together, she was able to enter his mind. Seeing how mako/lifestream IS magic...I can't say I can't accept this. It's like describing how a Pokeball works...

While something does borrow references, that does not mean that that is the whole story. While there are some, even within the Vatican, that Jesus TOLD Judas to kill him, what you described isn't really the bible anymore. And even then, the only thing that would say that are references of Sephiroth becoming a god, and his messiah complex i.e. "I am the chosen one." The story, actually, was a kind of 'mental self-exploration and discovery journey' FF7's director took after his mother died. No shit, s'what he says.

Boy, if you got into Warhammer 40,000, I think your mind would be blown...
 

icame

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I don't enjoy the games myself (except for 6 which was actually very fun) but i see the appeal.
 

Judgement101

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ShinGundam said:
Judgement101 said:
Nothing. Nothing at all. Compared to Persona, Final Fantasy is crap. The only thing is FF is one of the few JRPG franchises still alive.
i can't stand the appeal of Persona games as i don't like random dungeon generator in single player RPGs. Maybe it is just me, but Tartarus is the most lazy random dungeon utilized just to pad game length ~_~ . I absolutely cannot see how so many lauded it as game of the year.
It's because the RPG is actually an RPG. You need to maintain your friends in order to gain some power. Also, there is the abiility to fuse your Persona to your liking. But, since you don't see the point in it this debate is pointless.
 

LogicNProportion

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Akalistos said:
LogicNProportion said:
Tactical Fugitive said:
Hello dear Escapists. Please explain why Final Fantasy are good games. Because, you see, I have played a few of the FF titles, I've even gone through the trouble of beating FF VII, which I was told, was oh so special, and you know what? I don't get it. The main character is almost always annoying and stupid, the dialogues are lame (ok, maybe bad translation on older games is to be blames), the story is always mostly the same and everything in general is ridiculously naive. I can only compliment the art style and the music, which are pretty good - but that ain't the main parts of an rpg.

And what the hell is the big deal with aeris's death? Good riddance!
Meh, for me the characters are too underdeveloped to care about them.

So tell me, why do you like Final Fantasy games? What's so special about them?
O_O Hahahahahahhahaha!

To get on topic. Why something is hyped and why it's good/enjoyed are different things.

First of all, everyone has different taste, and just because someone likes FF, doesn't mean they like ALL the FF's! I love 6 and 7, but 12 13 are disgusting to me! It's about the little things.

The one you played, 7, will always be a milestone and a big deal for 2 reasons. First, it was one of the first RPG's that were in 3D, which was pretty cool. Second, it was the FF that made the series mainstream.

Speaking of which, most fans of 7 were fans of it when it first came out. And just like it being 3D was a big deal back in the day, most of the stuff you saw as no biggie were as well, such as Aeris/Aerith's death, cut scenes, the story, etc.

Personally, I still love the environment and story of FF7. While a lot of them share similarities, it's no more than BioWare games do. If anything, FF7 is special because it probably has the most filled out environment. There's a LOT of background stuff they try and cram in there to explain how things work, from the planet to mako to engines. And while most people find it obnoxious, I'm a text-whore, so it's for me.

Not so much the characters, but they all helped me get through a crappy time in my life, and thus, I'm a proponent for competent remake, etc. As such, Cloud and Sephiroth will always have soft spots in my heart.

Glad you liked the art and music, that's always something that FF delivers on.

As for gameplay, again, it's all about taste. I wish I could see more turn-based stuff on today's market, but no such luck. But, I'm cool with it. I'm pretty vast in my tastes when it comes to gaming.

Overall, I love the older FF's, ironically til 8, where things got so convoluted, it disappeared up it's own ass. Though, 10 is an exception.

As far as hype goes, you should never follow hype. Be excited about it, but there's always hype about everything, and it you let it catch you, you will only become disappointed in the end...
3) Barret : He is the only character that have the motivation to attack Shinra. (Except for Yuffie but she doesn't do anything to correct Gongaga's situation in the end. Making her goal pointless.) His town, Wife, friends and neighbors (the midgar's one) have been killed. His best friend went on a murder spree and kill himself in a fit of madness before his eyes. He is the sole caretaker of his best friend's daughter, which she'll be in harm's way if he doesn't stop Sephiroth. Yet, the biggest problem is this: He never contribute to the plot in any way. In fact, i think that he should have been the main character but isn't du to xenophobia or something equally lame. We see for most of the game Barret doing the wallpaper in most scene. Not only does that make his backstory pointless but also make his character completely useless. People say Cath Sid or Yuffie is the most useless character but
Caith Sid: He use his robot body to fetch the Black material. Since he can't really die and all.
Yuffie: She's the best fighter in the game... if you know how to use her.

Barret is just a run of the mill Character that could have been easily been replace by Bigg or Wedge or even Jesse with no chance except the sprite. He's also the character that when through the least (if not at all) character development of them all. The whole saving the planet is just a facade as Barret use Avalanche just to get back at Shinra, his adoptive daughter be damn. In Midgar, who leave Marlene to a total stranger to care for while he goes to shinra tower? Who then ask same stranger to keep her and leave the city? City i might add surrounded by random encounter. A stranger that have absolutely no way in fighting in case the worst happen, by the way. Which lead to Marlene to be capture to force the party into blackmail by Shinra. All that lead to a unsatisfying destruction of Midgar by a weapon. Great googly mooglely, There's so much potential here that it hurt and they were too retard to use it. And I'll leave you with this question; What is worst, to try and fail or to fail to try?
Except that stuff DIDN'T happen to the others, it happened to Barret. While I agree with you (WOW) that Barret is in this mostly for self-gratification. I think the problem they did to Barret's side-plot (Dyne) is that they made it mandatory, and that they made it too early in the game. Would have been a good 'late into the middle part' side-plot.

Barret took the position of leader when Cloud vanished, before Cid was nominated. He otherwise was a big (literally and figuratively) cheerleader and 'action-man'. He was up for anything, which is good to have on a team.

Also, Marlene is never captured by Shinra. Each time she is safely hidden away by Aerith, lastly, in Kalm.

And I believe (if you mean worse = failure), that not trying at all is. You should always try. Never compromise in the face of adversity. This is how nature's dictation of the survival of the strongest and fittest, and how it makes those fittest.

Now, while I think that Cait Sith should have been left as an NPC, I agree with you on Yuffie. I rather liked her, and she IS damn good if you know how to use her. She can do the most damage, too.
 

Jaranja

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Akalistos said:
Jaranja said:
Akalistos said:
Jak The Great said:
you don't get it. End of story. stop making us justify why we like it.
Maybe there's nothing to get. Have you ever thought about this one.
So you're saying there's no reason why thousands of people like Final Fantasy?

Right. Okay.

I still call Final Fantasy X my favourite game for many reasons.
Yeah, there is. It's the first RPG most player played. Think about it, it's like their first love. Or maybe it's bad in a cheesy way to them. There's many reasons, but when you think about it, the game isn't really good.

Edit (to myself): many reasons... reason take a S you dumbass. LOL
Okay...

When I think about it, I still think it's an awesome game. I replay it on occasion because of the quirky characters with nicely developing storylines (I admit the protagonist is annoying). The story itself is amazing and really feels epic. The combat is good, in that it functions perfectly. Also, the sphere grid is a great way to learn abilities and upgrade stats. What didn't you like about it?
 

AbsoluteVirtue18

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Well, as probably the only person ever to not have a problem with any game in the main series, I can safely say...

.......well, because I do. I dunno. I just like them. How about you? Do you think I should have to justify my preference for some games? I don't have to justify s**t to you, buddy. And I'm tired of people acting like I do.
 

Akalistos

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LogicNProportion said:
Akalistos said:
LogicNProportion said:
Tactical Fugitive said:
Hello dear Escapists. Please explain why Final Fantasy are good games. Because, you see, I have played a few of the FF titles, I've even gone through the trouble of beating FF VII, which I was told, was oh so special, and you know what? I don't get it. The main character is almost always annoying and stupid, the dialogues are lame (ok, maybe bad translation on older games is to be blames), the story is always mostly the same and everything in general is ridiculously naive. I can only compliment the art style and the music, which are pretty good - but that ain't the main parts of an rpg.

And what the hell is the big deal with aeris's death? Good riddance!
Meh, for me the characters are too underdeveloped to care about them.

So tell me, why do you like Final Fantasy games? What's so special about them?
O_O Hahahahahahhahaha!

To get on topic. Why something is hyped and why it's good/enjoyed are different things.

First of all, everyone has different taste, and just because someone likes FF, doesn't mean they like ALL the FF's! I love 6 and 7, but 12 13 are disgusting to me! It's about the little things.

The one you played, 7, will always be a milestone and a big deal for 2 reasons. First, it was one of the first RPG's that were in 3D, which was pretty cool. Second, it was the FF that made the series mainstream.

Speaking of which, most fans of 7 were fans of it when it first came out. And just like it being 3D was a big deal back in the day, most of the stuff you saw as no biggie were as well, such as Aeris/Aerith's death, cut scenes, the story, etc.

Personally, I still love the environment and story of FF7. While a lot of them share similarities, it's no more than BioWare games do. If anything, FF7 is special because it probably has the most filled out environment. There's a LOT of background stuff they try and cram in there to explain how things work, from the planet to mako to engines. And while most people find it obnoxious, I'm a text-whore, so it's for me.

Not so much the characters, but they all helped me get through a crappy time in my life, and thus, I'm a proponent for competent remake, etc. As such, Cloud and Sephiroth will always have soft spots in my heart.

Glad you liked the art and music, that's always something that FF delivers on.

As for gameplay, again, it's all about taste. I wish I could see more turn-based stuff on today's market, but no such luck. But, I'm cool with it. I'm pretty vast in my tastes when it comes to gaming.

Overall, I love the older FF's, ironically til 8, where things got so convoluted, it disappeared up it's own ass. Though, 10 is an exception.

As far as hype goes, you should never follow hype. Be excited about it, but there's always hype about everything, and it you let it catch you, you will only become disappointed in the end...
I think most people love it because it's their first RPG (In my case, it was FF9 and i found it much better) but i can understand why he don't like it. Hell, i don't like it and here's why.

1) Bland Character: They all act one dimensional through most of the game. Most of the description that I can make for any character is about 3 to 4 word max. Worst yet, the only one with a legitimate reason to fight is Barret (till it evident that Sephiroth want the apocalypse later in disk 3). Before that, they all got bullshit reason to go along.
Cloud: Money
Tifa: Cloud
Caith Sid: Job description... (Somehow i can't see a spy nor a office worker using a robot on top of a robot... it's just to stupid)
Cid: They took his plane (that was payed by, owned, used and serviced by Shinra)
Red XII: Father issue / request (He should have stay in Gongaga with the old man. But the old man told him to understand the world a be like his father (spoiler) he needed to travel.
Yuffie: Loot... her's and yours. (It's imply that she need that to return his village into a fighting force against Shinra... but they didn't even move during the second attack at Shinra's tower nor she have given said loot to her people making it Pointless!)
Vincent: He had a Nightmare... I'm not kidding. He just got a nightmare.
Sephiroth: He want his mommy to acknowledge him. (what i can't understand here is why. Beside, he most have known later that he was just infused with more of her DNA then most people. Better yet, it doesn't matter because he's a clone and the original body still lies in the deep of the Nibleheim Reactor with Cloud original body on top of him.)

That will be all for now.
I would say those were over-simplified, but that wouldn't even be correct as most aren't even accurate...

Cloud: Money, true, but money is a powerful factor. He's DRIVEN to because he's not himself.
He is himself, he's just a clone of himself with memory he made up. His vendetta to Sephiroth is a focal point... for FIVE MINUTES so he doesn't leave the party because he won't get paid anymore.

LogicNProportion said:
Tifa: She's a powerful, driven woman who wants to do what she can help. She's very motherly, so not only is she going to help AVALANCHE, an anti-Shinra group (Shinra took everything from her), but she would stick around anyway for Marlene, Barret's adopted daughter. She sticks around for Cloud, because she knows something isn't right.
Yet, she try to get his affection through out the game and even abandon her goal of saving the planet when he become a vegetable. Motherly, no. In F'in love to the point of attempting suicide for Cloud... YES! And she done that when the lifestream start tearing the clinic apart.

LogicNProportion said:
Cait Sith: Using a cat on the Mog as a hook to blend in is exactly what a spy would do. [ 0_0'' I've must have read that wrong somehow -Akalistos] Plus, the Mog is obviously physically strong. Later on in the game, none of this really even matters! Reeve has a change of heart, and then acts as a double agent. Reeve is all for the people, not the planet.
How can you been subtle using a Giant moogle robot controled by a Cat robot with a megaphone. Seriously, it either the stupidest disguise or a way to make the mascot appear in the game. A human robot would have been more inconspicuous, and don't tell me Shinra didn't have the technology... they miniaturize it to make the Cat robot. Beside, the Shift in conscience appear way to late to be relevant to Caith sith. He captured Marlene and threaten to hurt her. His alliance change when they go back to Midgar, and by then, it's mosly because he's afraid of them climbing the tower and beating his ass in. Or at least, that's what if feel like when his conscience awake that late after the deeds.

LogicNProportion said:
Cid: Shinra stole his dream of being the first man in space. His dream! Deep down, Cid is fatherly, and looks out for people. He certainly didn't crisp Shera, which ended up actually doing more damage to his dream then even Shinra. When you meet him, he has nothing else left but his last pride and joy, the Tiny Bronco (the plane). Having become a Shinra fugitive by resisting the president and it's army, and escaping with well-known terrorists, he has no choice but to join the enemy of his enemy. His last blaze of glory, in his mind.
And the rocket, and the flying ship Lady Luck (if i remember correctly). Back on topic, He sunk himself in during the launch. He did it knowing that it would ruin his dream, which is why his motivation is bullshit. Beside, The fact that the Tiny Bronco never belong to him in the first place make him kinda of a thief for trying to stop them. In fact, it nothing more then a baby tantrum because someone has a toy in hand.

LogicNProportion said:
Red XIII(13): Red's or Nanaki's, is to be better than his coward-father. Once his grandfather dies, and he finds out his father was warrior, just like him, he makes another vow to protect the planet, even if it is to kill him, just as his father died protecting him and Cosmo Canyon. Shinra also abducted him, experimented on him and with Hojo, that means torture without any humane concern.
But he's just in for the ride. He was ask to follow them after the first visit to Gongaga by his grandfather. It's more of a favor to his grandfather then an actual vow to protect the world. Alto he did mention of the pain Hojo did to him, it never been mention when Hojo isn't there nor does he make the link between Hojo and Shinra. So, he either have a Stockholm syndrome with Shinra or he see the torturer as the one to pay. Which make his involvement in some scene pointless. As for the Anime, I haven't seen it and it's not part of the game. It's interesting nonetheless but i'll have to say it doesn't count here.

LogicNProportion said:
Yuffie: As an optimistic, brave girl who has had to grow up with a devastated homeland thanks to Shinra. She simply wishes for her proud people to gain independence once more. She at least TRY to achieve victory. In this case, it is the conquest to collect materia, and use it. For the second half, she is told by her father, if you did her event, to travel with you and to stop Sephiroth.
She collect materia, that much i can give you... but she never use it. In no scene does she go to his village with any materia. In fact (and i know it doesn't count in this conversation) The funniest/stupidest bit happen in FF7-AC when she claim the materia HIDDEN IN AERIS CHURCH TO BE HER! Shouldn't that be in custody of Wutai by then? By the way, i did the whole Pagoda and they never mention sephiroth (Granted, i never went back there), they just say to become stronger for Wutai. Which she is when you beat the Five Warrior of Wutai.

LogicNProportion said:
Vincent: Vincent is a figure who was betrayed by his own romanticism. In fact, because of his at-first-complacency, and then, because he did not simply stomp out Hojo (he was a Turk, basically CIA/KGB, he could have within legal rights), he was the cause to Sephiroth, and the current crisis of the game. In fact, the previously cited rule of "If you had the power, would you not try?" applies to him more than anyone. And let's not add on the factor that he COULD be Sephiroth's dad. Vincent is the only one to confirm that Hojo is the father, and this might have been to shove off some self-guilt for the time-being.
He love Lucrecia but never did anything about it. Then, when she died, he did confront Hojo to which his response was to Knock him out and place him on the table. In this regard, he isn't worthy of being a Turk, let a lone a freaking Soldiers. And your motivation is bullshit because HE HID HIMSELF IN A COFFIN FOR 50 YEARS. Or does that count as a attempt? Also, it stated in the game that Lucrecia cared for Vincent, but didn't love him. Hence the fake romanticism that you seem to get if lost on your truly.

LogicNProportion said:
Barret has his own section, i believe you need to read it before posting anything. I haven't touch Aeris yet either so i'll remove them here... but note that I have indeed read both.


LogicNProportion said:
Sephiroth: Okay, so Sephiroth, when he first went insane, was because of the JENOVA cells within his body, being taken control of JENOVA, which he had visited earlier that day, giving him some mind-fuck as is, because that was told to him by Hojo to be his mother. Seeing such a monster to be his mother helped him study up on his 'heritage', which were really poorly researched notes done up by hack-scientists who wrote the stuff down before they found out what JENOVA truly was. In this research, Jenova is classified as an Ancient. Humanity betrayed the Ancients long ago, and with Jenova seeing an opening in Sephiroth's will, basically brain washed him into leading him in the right way to 'kill everyone to avenge their species'. But first, Sephiroth takes a stroll to Jenova's tube, to release his 'mother', which leaves himself open. He basically gets bisected by Cloud and falls into the lifestream, which is actually souls, and the pure knowledge of those souls. For years, Sephiroth rides along the lifestream in the planet, his hatred, rage, and strong will allowing him to live, until he is carried to the Northern Crater. In his time in the lifestream, he learns so many things about the planet and magic, but not once did he learn he wasn't Cetra. However, he also forgot fragments of himself in an attempt to survive mostly intact. Lastly, his will gaining so much power, he was actually able to take control of Jenova. From his mako-crystal prison, Sephiroth's will allows him to take control of pieces of Jenova and those with his cells around the world. While he is himself, because of his destroyed memories, he is still influenced slightly by Jenova's behavior and that is to exterminate the inhabitants of the planet, gain in power, and then spread. By the end, there is still speculation of who was in control: Jenova, or Sephiroth. He also has a god-complex, and Oedipus-complex (he 'loves' his 'mother', but hates his father, Hojo), a messiah-complex, and a bunch of other negative traits.
It's never imply in the game that Sephiroth is controlled by Jenova. In is in fact implied that HE WAS THE ONE IN THE THIRD TUBE. Remember, Zack was struck down and so did Cloud and Sephiroth. Then, later, we get a monologue in which Hojo is stun that a mere mortal could kill Sephiroth, meaning that he perish! So basically by then, he just got crazy because he though Jenova to be his mother. And Hojo wasn't wrong. His plan was to make him the strongest creature yet by injecting DNA from Jenova into Lucrecia's womb. Basically trying to overwrite some of his DNA. In turn, he use that same technique to revive him as well as Zack and Cloud. Second point to prove he's dead. You need DNA to create a clone, therefore Hojo needed to fetch Cloud's body (or a piece of it) for it to work. Ence, He didn't fall into the lifestream. I don't know what you've been paying attention too but i guess your research is base on other media outside the game. So, If he wasn't control by Jenova in his first life, How can he be controlled afterward? It doesn't make sense. Second, most of his Dialog is: "Watch me mother as i rain hell!". Well, it would be if he could just say it in one f'in sentence. He also have shown sign of control over the pieces of he mother that he literally throw at your face in different part of the game. He's not tragic, he's dumb.

Also, he mother is stated as a being that ride meteor and feed on planet. You know, Like Galactus... only with weird booby with eyes instead of nipple.
 

IamSofaKingRaw

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LogicNProportion said:
LONG ass snip
Jesus you have time on your hands. I personally think VII was average. Definately not better than 9,10 or 12. 13 is the worst obviously.
 

Dark Knifer

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Because everyone has a different mind to you. Everyone. So stop assuming your opinion is right because someone will disagree with you and you probally won't understand why. That's just how we work.
 

Legion IV

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Judgement101 said:
Nothing. Nothing at all. Compared to Persona, Final Fantasy is crap. The only thing is FF is one of the few JRPG franchises still alive.

Persona is crap theres nothing redeeming about it. Final fantasy is amazing and the best jrpg series out there. Persona is just crap.

See what i did there i stated everything like it was a fact kinda like what you did. We dont need to justify why its a great series. In all honestly its my favorite. Personas good i like it. Just dont hate for no reason we all like things for diffrent reasons.
 

Kazedarkwind

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Nov 18, 2009
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oh for the love of god, if you dont like JRPGs, stop bugging those who do, some people like it, others dont,

me on the otherhand, i grew up with it, loved it with every bit of my soul, for me i learned good morals from it, and i owe alot of who i am today as a good person. but dear god stop trying to look down on us for what games we like.
 

Akalistos

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LogicNProportion said:
Akalistos said:
LogicNProportion said:
Tactical Fugitive said:
Hello dear Escapists. Please explain why Final Fantasy are good games. Because, you see, I have played a few of the FF titles, I've even gone through the trouble of beating FF VII, which I was told, was oh so special, and you know what? I don't get it. The main character is almost always annoying and stupid, the dialogues are lame (ok, maybe bad translation on older games is to be blames), the story is always mostly the same and everything in general is ridiculously naive. I can only compliment the art style and the music, which are pretty good - but that ain't the main parts of an rpg.

And what the hell is the big deal with aeris's death? Good riddance!
Meh, for me the characters are too underdeveloped to care about them.

So tell me, why do you like Final Fantasy games? What's so special about them?
O_O Hahahahahahhahaha!

To get on topic. Why something is hyped and why it's good/enjoyed are different things.

First of all, everyone has different taste, and just because someone likes FF, doesn't mean they like ALL the FF's! I love 6 and 7, but 12 13 are disgusting to me! It's about the little things.

The one you played, 7, will always be a milestone and a big deal for 2 reasons. First, it was one of the first RPG's that were in 3D, which was pretty cool. Second, it was the FF that made the series mainstream.

Speaking of which, most fans of 7 were fans of it when it first came out. And just like it being 3D was a big deal back in the day, most of the stuff you saw as no biggie were as well, such as Aeris/Aerith's death, cut scenes, the story, etc.

Personally, I still love the environment and story of FF7. While a lot of them share similarities, it's no more than BioWare games do. If anything, FF7 is special because it probably has the most filled out environment. There's a LOT of background stuff they try and cram in there to explain how things work, from the planet to mako to engines. And while most people find it obnoxious, I'm a text-whore, so it's for me.

Not so much the characters, but they all helped me get through a crappy time in my life, and thus, I'm a proponent for competent remake, etc. As such, Cloud and Sephiroth will always have soft spots in my heart.

Glad you liked the art and music, that's always something that FF delivers on.

As for gameplay, again, it's all about taste. I wish I could see more turn-based stuff on today's market, but no such luck. But, I'm cool with it. I'm pretty vast in my tastes when it comes to gaming.

Overall, I love the older FF's, ironically til 8, where things got so convoluted, it disappeared up it's own ass. Though, 10 is an exception.

As far as hype goes, you should never follow hype. Be excited about it, but there's always hype about everything, and it you let it catch you, you will only become disappointed in the end...
Rebuttal part 2. Yeah, i thought it would be better to broke it to piece so you'll have a easier time to retort to specific point instead of a long drawn out post.

2) Bullshit story: It far from being well written. (spoiler's aplanty mate) Like i said before, the Character haven't have motivation, and so is the villain. But this is where it shine.

Basically, Holy is a spell that can only be cast if the caster is kill during the summoning. So here, Sephiroth does himself in by killing Aeris. Funny when you think about it. The only thing he can do is link his soul with the planet to stop Holy... Which he does until he get out. Why? He can clearly control Cloud because he's a clone of original Cloud mix with Jenova. He got 12 Apostles ready to do his bidding. (As Film Brain would have put it: SYMBOLISM!!!!1!)

The only motivation Cloud has to fight Sephiroth is revenge. Revenge for something he probably would have done to stop his nemesis before someone else took care of it. His own trouble past make it also a big chunk of the story... but it doesn't matter at this point because he's a clone. He's memories is clearly not his own. And somehow, dunking himself into mako seem to imply he fetch his own soul back. That too involve some problem as in, How come people got comatose when they are dunk. Shouldn't the implication being that souls enter the body? Shouldn't they become schizophreniac instead?

As for the rest, they have little to no impact on the story. It's basically a retelling of the bible in which Judas Iscariot is the Hero and Jesus is the villain bend on killing people... at least that's what i get from it.

Third Part coming soon
Rebuttal-Rebuttal Part 2!

Holy does not require you to die. Aerith just died. She was not expecting it, so she didn't really sacrifice herself, contrary to what many FF7 fans will have you believe. She wasn't expecting to die. Sephiroth killing her (or more like a Jenova part taking his form as per Sephiroth's command to lead Cloud along) was a wrench in the works. I didn't understand the rest of your first paragraph, but I think I'll try to combat it. Sephiroth's magical will is just strong enough hold it back, thanks to mental abilities, etc he picked up during his little swim in the lifestream. Doesn't make much sense, I know, but he does.
It's not a wrench in any one plan except Sephiroth. First, i will never admit that he was controlled by Jenova as there's no clue of that EVER. Second, a sacrifice doesn't mean it has to be aware of it for it to work. Basically, they said that the caster need to bring he plea to the planet. Since it's hammered since the very first 5 min of game that when you die, you go back to the planet... It's impossible not to make the link. Second, Sephiroth went to the Crater with meteor not only to cast it (because he could) But to stop said plea from reaching the planet. In short: he tried to delay Holy as much as possible while meteor was coming down, hence why it never really activate until Cloud went into the lifestream and destroy Sephi's essence. Also, thank for pointing out flaw in your reasoning but i can do it on my own. Beside, Sephiroth never even dip his toe in lifestream.

LogicNProportion said:
I'm not gonna list Cloud's motivations again...
That being taking care of in your previous post... and mine.

LogicNProportion said:
But as I see it, you're either looking at this in terms of too much science, or too much fantasy. Final Fantasy 7 is clearly Sci-Fi.
As a Stargate fan, i'm offended that you think i hate FF 7 because it Sci-fi. It's just that it isn't good, Period.
LogicNProportion said:
Just is. No way around it. Clone for one, was actually a mistranslation when the game went to English. What Cloud and the other 'Numbers' are, are more along the lines of 'people who were gathered by Hojo after the Nibelheim incident because they were alive, then were subject to experiments which were to mimic Sephiroth's enhancement, but really they kind of just injected more Jenova into them'.
Because being impaled by a sword as big as a car is survivable in japan. Sheesh.
LogicNProportion said:
(Tifa was originally going to be one, but was rescued by her teacher, Zangan.) This experimentation process doesn't make too much sense, but it doesn't have to, because Hojo is Hojo, as he is a mad-scientist.
On the contrary, it does matter when you MAIN CHARACTER HAVE A WHOLE STORY ARC ABOUT IT FOR AT LEAST 10 HOURS OF DIALOG AND GAMEPLAY. It's also the main focus of the story as in HE'S BEEN CONTROLLED BY SEPHIROTH. (Cap wasn't necessary but i don't conscider them yelling as much as raising my voice a little. Full on yelling would be using the [ h1 ] braket.)
LogicNProportion said:
You may ask why Shinra would let him do this, and well, that's because Hojo not only has secrets aplenty...but because as the provider of Sephiroth, Shinra's greatest asset, he's a got tons of power in the company. It should also be pointed out that the experimented few of Nibelhiem were not the only ones with Jenova cells. Shinra SOLDIER's got them regularly as part of their enhancement process, as well as being infused with mako energy.
No. It's stated that only Sephiroth was worthy because, at the time, Hojo though that Jenova was a ancient. As such, he believe it would make his ancient power even more powerfull. He later revise is stance when he found out she was the calamity from the sky. (and you said i didn't do my research.)

LogicNProportion said:
As far Cloud's memories. Due to pure trauma from Nibelhiem (losing his town, seeing Tifa 'die', his mom dying, Zack 'dying') and mako addiction/poisoning, Cloud is not only comatose...he's mostly a blank slate.
Because at this point, he's a clone. Beside what they say in on Japanese version make it even dumber.
LogicNProportion said:
It's implied that too much mako equates to you losing a bit of yourself, as Sephiroth does each time he took a dunk himself. Also, Cloud has newly implanted Jenova cells, which Jenova 'herself' having a 'copy' ability. As Zack hauls Cloud around for about a month, he tells Cloud just about everything he's seen and done. With his brain like a sponge, and the Jenova cells basically writing Zack's words with ink into his skull, Cloud wakes up thinking:

"Yo, this is what I remember, this must be me."
Clone and that last piece. Cloud mind is a sponge. That much is true. Alto it's debated that some memory is carried through DNA (instinctive one at least) It also true that during birth, human brain is like a sponge. In fact, it's proven that baby have a super mind from 0 to 3 and soak everthing they learn and assimilate it as fast as a computer.

LogicNProportion said:
The final push into this stage of Cloud's mental-state is probably caused by Zack actually dying in his arms then. A lot of people do this in real life when they endure too much stress for them to handle. To compensate, their brain unplugs and gets rid of that personality, and kind of reboots a new one. There ARE cases of it. Another game example however, is Reaver, from Fable 2. But I won't get into that.
Haven't played Fable 2. But then, it raise more and more and more questions. That is, if it's not a clone. Basically, the way it's describe is that he and Zack had a similar background. He knew that Nibleheim was reconstructed. He showed it to Cloud and then they went on their way to Midgar. It's the more logical reconstruction of event. As to why they rebuild Nibleheim to cover what happen is another plot hole.

LogicNProportion said:
As how Cloud got his memories back...this is really never fully described. This scene, where Tifa enters his mind and kind of jig-saws him back into place, is probably the most 'fantasy' the game gets, besides materia/magic. It is implied however, that due to 'magic' when Tifa and Cloud took a mako-dunk together, she was able to enter his mind. Seeing how mako/lifestream IS magic...I can't say I can't accept this. It's like describing how a Pokeball works...
And the vivid image of the multiple Cloud fusing together didn't bring the image of pieces of real Cloud soul fusing with the clone at all? Otherwise, what's the point of that?

LogicNProportion said:
While something does borrow references, that does not mean that that is the whole story. While there are some, even within the Vatican, that Jesus TOLD Judas to kill him, what you described isn't really the bible anymore. And even then, the only thing that would say that are references of Sephiroth becoming a god, and his messiah complex i.e. "I am the chosen one." The story, actually, was a kind of 'mental self-exploration and discovery journey' FF7's director took after his mother died. No shit, s'what he says.

Boy, if you got into Warhammer 40,000, I think your mind would be blown...
Maybe not... if it not written by chimp, i think i can handle it.