Women and 'sensitive' men

[Nomad]

To be honest, what he says is of little concequence to me.
It was formulated nicely. The grammar was quite good. It was a nice read. All in all, you're a boon for the internet. Regardless what the post was about.

I'm sure everyone agrees on that.

I disagree. Not about him being a boon to the internet, because I think pretty much everyone is. But rather about the part where you say formulation and grammar are the primary requirements for a good point. It's always nice when someone does some thinking, but in order to maintain intellectual discussion and growth, you have to evaluate and improve upon invalid or misdirected conclusions.

And by saying "I don't care what he actually wrote, all I care about is that he wrote it coherently", you're not exactly furthering that purpose.

 

[Flamezdudes]

I class someone as a man when they reach a certain age, not when they accomplish something. I'm sick of this stuff, "You're not a man unless you do ??????". Bullshit.

 

[VanityGirl]

LOL. this is the FUNNIEST thing I have EVER READ.
I want to print out a copy to show people.

You said you make it broad so there would be discussion, obviously because you were covering for the fact that the whole thread sounded like a generalization of the males.


But, I'll give you a vagina's point of view.

Women, like men have various tastes. It's impossible to truly break a man down into a good/bad boy catagory. What if a guy gives money to the poor, but steals from rich people? Is he good or bad?

We women actually find guys we think we can see a future with (and we pick them on things we have in common). If a guy is compassionate, then we have a good idea he'd be a caring father, If he is strong, he can help out, if he is finacially secure, then he can support a family, the list goes on.
We also pick based on looks, brains, compatability and the like.

My boyfriend can be the sweetest guy, and you know what? He's not afraid to show it in front of his friends. OMG. He must be a doormat.
No, actually he's a strong man with a lot going for him.


I would honestly say that your first post was rather insulting to males. And actually it was rather insulting to women as well.
We don't pick men the way you think we do. And men aren't like you say they are.

 

[Seldon2639]

snip

You cite experimental psychologists a few times in your reply.. Can I see the sources? (not out of a "neener, neener, caught you being a hypocrite" sort of attitude.. I'm genuinely interested in seeing the research)

Sadly, there's not an awful lot of experimental psychology on this subject (for obvious reasons it's impossible to really do a double-blind experiment in human dating). The logic behind my reasoning (as written by an evolutionary psychologist whose name escapes me now) was that women have an interest in obtaining the best genes for her children, and in obtaining the best caregiver (which are often not the same person). The closest I've found to what I had seen a while ago on the subject was this:

http://www.canadiancrc.com/Newspaper_Articles/Time_Magazine_infidelity_in_genes_15AUG94.aspx

A few other studies have come to similar conclusions about behavior:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1559901

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Near-Ovulation-Your-Cheatin-Heart-6713.aspx?RelNum=6713

Basically, women prefer more "feminine" features (rounded faces, clean-shaven) for men during their luteal (post ovulatory) phase, and prefer more "masculine" features (stubble, square jaws, ect) during their ovulatory phase. On the broader scale, women want (a) a man to provide for them and their children, and (b) a man to provide the "best" genetic code. Since often those men are different people, it encourages the woman to want to be impregnated by the "bad boy" and get the "nice guy" to rear the child.

This, of course, becomes much less effective in light of both birth control, and paternity tests (not to mention the predilection among many "nice" guys to avoid women with a long sexual history and dump women who cheat on them).

 

[Insanum]

Its an interesting read, I disagree with some of the points, But i spose in general you've hit some good points. Just remember its all about children.

 

[Zarthek]

I'm a nice guy to almost everyone... 'cept the bastards and gangsters. Usually I'm not that assertive or anything along those lines, I like being a leader but not to the point that you stress it. I have a girl that I talk with most of the time and she just loves me 'cause I'm cautious.. not that assertive, her opinion matters to my ears.. In fact not just hers, if I like someone (At least as a acquaintance that I don't hate) I'll listen to them and confort them if necessary. Not that many people notice me.. but the ones that do generally like me.

So I guess you could say I'm fairly soft.. but sometimes that works for people, for good or for bad

 

[GrinningManiac]

After reading your post, I have come to the following conclusion:
You are a very very sexist person, and you likely made this topic in an attempt to rationalise that sexism by making out that everyone else was sexist too.

Yes, almost everyone is sexist to some extent, but they aren't all sexist in the same way.

Women find door mats to be very unattractive as they could never provide the security and comfort a woman needs. Women like men they can rely on, and the alpha male who is confident, strong and never afraid to be assertive is much more of a viable dating option than the 'nice guy'.

I wanted to respond to this bit in particular, because it is a misconception that many hold.
In general, women lust after the alpha male, but love the nice-guy.
Why? Because the nice-guy is far far more likely to look after any children that have been born, but equally, a child is far more likely to survive it they have strong genes. So, evolutionarily speaking, the best thing to do is have sex with the tough-guy but be in a relationship with the nice-guy.

This means it very much looks like nice-guys finish last around dating age, but ultimately, nice-guys are going to end up having a lot more meaningful sex than the tough-guys.

We can all only hope...

COUGH...scratch that, I didn't say anything.

Oim' a Big Tough Guy, I like to punch walls, then bend some Iron. Then drink blended Steak

YEAH! POWER STEAK, lots of Steak.

On Fire

Yeah

 

[TheMadTypist]

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster, anywho:

I do act differently around women. Yes, I am more open with them, and assume them to be more accepting, BUT having a female's perception of me change for the worse would actually hurt me MORE than a male's perception. So what if some arse thinks I'm a wimp? but if a woman- one who I respect and admire (and usually, am chasing at the moment) calls me a pansy, it sticks rather more and might even influence me to change my behavior.

I grew up with an inferiority complex, so I can safely say I never thought myself better than my male friends, in fact, I often felt like the bottom of the heap. That's not really typical, though, so I suppose your argument there stands.

Ego-centric? Power hungry? Well, perhaps these parts of my personality are channeled into the computer games I play, I only occasionally manifest any Ego-Centric traits and almost never seek power. But then, I'm a doormat, who has never managed to get a date. In fact, my usual method of declaring interest in a woman is to make a CD for her, or some other small gift, which I suppose might be a bit too subtle to be effective. Girls tend to say that I or what I do for them is "sweet", but I've come to believe that means about the same as a guy saying a woman has a nice personality.

So, I suppose survival of the fittest means I'll be going without any progeny. I suppose that's alright, it means I'll never have to give up gaming.

 

[JaredXE]

This, of course, becomes much less effective in light of both birth control, and paternity tests (not to mention the predilection among many "nice" guys to avoid women with a long sexual history and dump women who cheat on them).

QFT. I have and will dump the ass of any girl that cheats on me, no matter what my feelings for her are. There is no forgiveness, there is no excuse.

 

[Circleseer]

To be honest, what he says is of little concequence to me.
It was formulated nicely. The grammar was quite good. It was a nice read. All in all, you're a boon for the internet. Regardless what the post was about.

I'm sure everyone agrees on that.

I disagree. Not about him being a boon to the internet, because I think pretty much everyone is. But rather about the part where you say formulation and grammar are the primary requirements for a good point. It's always nice when someone does some thinking, but in order to maintain intellectual discussion and growth, you have to evaluate and improve upon invalid or misdirected conclusions.

And by saying "I don't care what he actually wrote, all I care about is that he wrote it coherently", you're not exactly furthering that purpose.

1) Not pretty much everyone is a boon to the internet.
2) I did not state that the use of correct grammer are more important than making a valid point. See, the thing is; posts like 'Wow, thanks alot OP. You've really pissed me off.
' just make me feel like pointing out something positive.

I blame it on stress and lack-of-sleep-induced light-headedness.



So yeah, you're right. Sorry.

 

[cobra_ky]

Men are egocentric, power hungry and seek to be dominant.

Any male who does not exhibit these behaviours in some form or manner is not male, I do not speak in the biological sense, rather from a framework which see?s gender and it?s social expectations and sexual anatomy as separate. To be those qualities is to be a man ? and this is from an evolutionary stand point. Women find door mats to be very unattractive as they could never provide the security and comfort a woman needs. Women like men they can rely on, and the alpha male who is confident, strong and never afraid to be assertive is much more of a viable dating option than the ?nice guy?.

and that's why these frameworks are absolute garbage. there are plenty of men that don't fit this definition, and plenty of women aren't looking for men like this.

I?ve seen my fair share of relationship posts, you guys are really nice even if you can be a bunch of smartasses, but I?m will to wager that for many of you ? you have wondered why even though you?re a nice guy and you?d treat the girl with love and respect she deserves, why does she only consider you a friend and continue to date guys who are VERY unlike you. Just consider what I just said.

never happened to me. sorry.

A lot of men don?t value a woman?s opinion, which is why they are not generally afraid to show them weakness.

Men think that all women are suppose to have a nurturing soft soggy heart, and men will have little reservation vomiting all their thoughts and feelings into them. The same thoughts and feelings they refuse to share with their friends. Because once their friends know, that?s it ? the power politics has shifted in their favour. Men think they have to be stoic which is why their brethren can never know. However if a female is aware of the feelings, the male will seriously not care if that woman?s perception of him changes. Because in all honesty, it?s probably changed for the better. Men think all women are sympathetic, and women think the same thing. Women actually are a lot more sympathetic and nurturing than men. But men believe that means that women will feel affection and pity for almost anything.

All the men reading this, honestly think back when you told a woman something you would never tell your buddies. If her perception of you changed, would you care? If she thought less of you, than you?d probably try to rationalize it in your mind that she is just a ***** and you should never have trusted her. But if she thought you were not as stoic, as strong, as iron willed as you appear to others, would that slow you down for a second? But if a few of your mates thought the same thing could you shrug that off? If she told you she thought you were weak, you would think something along the lines of ?like your opinion matters to me? but if you?re mates said that you?d feel more insecure.

Now for men who have the heart to heart with their buddies. That is probably a true honest moment that you?ve had. More so than compared to when you told the same thing to a woman? Think about it.

completely wrong. i have much more meaningful conversations with women than men. i'm also much more honest with them. i worry about how my female friends perceive me much more than my male friends.

What I?m trying to show is that there are very subtle sexisms among most of us; we just may not realize it because they aren?t so clear cut as sexual harassment and oppression. So men, really think twice before you claim you treat men and women the same. Because do you really?

I couldn't agree more with this conclusion. it's too bad that your arguments for it are so wildly inaccurate.

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

I'm more open with males than females. All girl's I've talked to dont want to listen to somebody talk about themselves, they just want somebody popular who'll give them a month of feeling like their the hottest girl ever. I have always been one way. I don't act all strong or anything with anybody.
Althought the OP was really good, and a lot of it worked out with me.

 

[S-Unleashed]

I'm the doormate, the nice guy, and the loser wuss no girl will ever want. Till I read this I allways wondered why girls liked the "Bad boy." Now I know. It's just not in me to be an ass to a friend. It's more like I'm the one being push around. Sorry girls take me or leave me. Wait don't leave me!

 

[PurpleRain]

I think I don't agree with one thing you've written. I feel the OP has a few issues that he hasn't sorted through yet.

 

[martin's a madman]

Wait, you forgot to generalise more in paragraph 4.

No, but seriously the generalisations are kind of funny. It is a well written piece I suppose, but I just personally can't relate to a lot of what was said.

 

[Halfbreed13]

Well done, too bad you are probably talking to the guys of the football field and their whores. Not us gamers without "lives" that have such high valued stock these days.

 

[PurpleRain]

Wait, you forgot to generalise more in paragraph 4.

No, but seriously the generalisations are kind of funny. It is a well written piece I suppose, but I just personally can't relate to a lot of what was said.

Haha, brilliant. I think you summed up this entire thread best.

 

[Zetona]

Snip

Wonderfully written, and I think your best point is the last one about subtle sexism. Whether we realize it or not, we constantly discriminate against other members of society. This is the sort of -ism that keeps a group down on the social ladder, not open, abusive -ism. You could write a fundamentally similar article on racism.

Of course, if this sort of writing went mainstream, it might tear apart all sorts of societal dynamics regarding the romantic relationship.

My guess, though, is that this sort of thing works more in the short term. As a couple gets to know each other better over a number of years, the male's more macho side will become more obvious to the female, and if the relationship was indeed based on subtle manipulation instead of on mutual love and respect, it will eventually fall apart. Not all relationships are like this, of course. It's why some marriages last forever, while others crumble quickly.

 

[DeliciousTruffle]

The OP made such a sweeping generalization that I could only physically describe it by taking an enormous broom to Mars and using it to dust off the entire planet.

 

[Mana Fiend]

I would pretty much agree with the majority here. A real man - scratch that, a real person, male or female - is someone who's come to terms with who they are.

I, personally, have accepted that I am walked over, used, the last to be invited to a party but the first to be asked to organise one. I put others before myself, but I'm ok with that. I'd much rather be me than some of the 'men' I see walking down the street, acting like some kind of douche and insulting all those who pass, regardless or age or gender, who are remotely different to them. And, as they're so cool and amazing, that's everyone.

So, yeah, take me as the doormat that I am, or find another house.