Women and 'sensitive' men

[Demons_Bane]

Nicely written but did you really need to justify male emotional behaviors towards certain genders and situations?
I got an account so I could just reply to this, by the way do you believe that you are like this. Emotionally even though you could explain, justify and give example for your points I really think its more complex than that. By the way (again) I am a guy, and all the guys I hang out with don't care if I act like a wuss because they know that I have an insane streak of domination(when I want to).

 

[SimuLord]

To hear nerds hold forth on the concept of masculinity makes me laugh. True manhood consists in knowing when to turn your brain off and (as the Nike ads put it) just do it. It comes from instinctive confidence, which can't be learned, only acquired through experience to the point where a man can count on it without having to think about it.

Whether he's a misogynist or a teddy bear or somewhere in between, whether he's a beer-commercial "man's man" or a man of arts and letters (what nerds used to be before video games and Star Trek conventions turned them into dweebs), maybe you should spend less time reading blowhards write forum posts and more time reading stuff like "The Book of the Courtier" by Baldassare Castiglione, as relevant in the 21st century as it was when it was written in the 16th.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

*snip*

I am... an asshole. XD
I have always been 100% honest about that. In fact I deliberately phrase things in harsher than needed ways just to drive that point home.

But I really am curious. You said it may be nice to date a guy or two who is honest about just wanting to get laid... I am confused. Is there ever any doubt about that?

Emphasis on the word "just." A lot of guys don't just want to be laid, they also, when you get right down to it, want to be mothered. That's not only a real burden, it's a real turn-off.

It is well known that men and women can not ever truly be friends. No matter what the guy will always say okay if you offer to sleep with him. So seriously, are there really chicks that honestly believe a guy just wants to be their friend?
It is not even a guys fault. We are programmed that way. Even if a guy actually did want to he will always make subtle hints and test the waters, probably without even realising it.

I think you are stereotyping your own gender a bit, more than a bit, really. I have offered to bang guy friends (I'm rapid-cycling bipolar and when I'm manic I tend to lose my temper or my pants, depending on the situation) and been politely turned down. I've also been happily accepted. Most of my friends right now are male, in part because of the industry in which I work. I know there are some of them who would not have sex with me, given the choice, because it would be wierd and fuck up the friendship (literally.) There is one that I am pretty sure would hop into bed with me, given the chance, but that goes for his wife as well.

What? I have interesting friends...

 

[Rax]

Men are egocentric, power hungry and seek to be dominant.

I think this point has been more then proven by the responses that have followed from so many other men (power hungry)fighting tooth and nail to prove otherwise.(egocentric) Doing everything to show value and strength in their opinions all the while (Dominant) trying to prove themselves right.

Even right now as I sit and type this I am not free of any of the above. So before any of you try to defend your point keep in mind, just by doing that you are proving the point of this essay.

Any male who does not exhibit these behaviors in some form or manner is not male, I do not speak in the biological sense, rather from a framework which see's gender and it's social expectations and sexual anatomy as separate. To be those qualities is to be a man - and this is from an evolutionary stand point. Women find door mats to be very unattractive as they could never provide the security and comfort a woman needs. Women like men they can rely on, and the alpha male who is confident, strong and never afraid to be assertive is much more of a viable dating option than the 'nice guy'.

Agreed. Women want to be dominated and made feel secure, this does not translate into being a douche and screaming at her, that's seen as insecurity, but being firm and strong in his wants and desires.

There are a few points that I disagreed with but that is simply because I am a different person who lived a different life. Even with the disagreements on the topic I can still say I agree with the point one hundred percent. I think this whole essay could be shortened into the simple statement of "Grow a pair"

 

[silasbufu]

I didn't really get what you'e trying to say. What I understood from this article is that you see everything to be black and white. But there are so many shades of gray...you would be surprised.
What I would like to add after reading this and a few comments is that, this is the way you were born. If you want to change your personality just to have more friends and get laid more, then you better be careful because sure , it might work, but one day you'll realize that each small part of you is a copy of some other more popular person you wanted to be like , and you'll see there's nothing original about you anymore.
Bet many people feel that if they'll hear "just be yourself" one more time they'll shoot somebody; But this cheesy line might be the best advice someone can get.

 

[sumanoskae]

Dude... you're just generalizing. The last time I confined a personal secret in someone outside my family it was just a friend of mine. You basically went through the entire post clinging to an idiotic generalization that all men are shit heads, I don't think any woman with a string of self respect would be attracted to a douche bag. Egotistical, insecure and manipulative, I've never met ANYONE, male or female, that fits into that description who's worth shit. the sad part is I've met plenty from both genders who are something like that. I'm sorry if I sound rude but quite frankly I find this post rather insulting and full of ignorance, the same way Asians would be insulted if you made a form explaining (and in an extremely high and mighty manner)why most Asians have no souls

 

[DoW Lowen]

Dude... you're just generalizing. The last time I confined a personal secret in someone outside my family it was just a friend of mine. You basically went through the entire post clinging to an idiotic generalization that all men are shit heads, I don't think any woman with a string of self respect would be attracted to a douche bag. Egotistical, insecure and manipulative, I've never met ANYONE, male or female, that fits into that description who's worth shit. the sad part is I've met plenty from both genders who are something like that. I'm sorry if I sound rude but quite frankly I find this post rather insulting and full of ignorance, the same way Asians would be insulted if you made a form explaining (and in an extremely high and mighty manner)why most Asians have no souls

Firstly I'm of Asian background, and yeah we do take people's jobs hahah

Secondly, everything I said has been researched empirically, I say nothing of ignorance.

Thirdly please read the entire post and the edits, because clearly you haven't. Not being rude, but that much is clear to me.

And finally you accuse me of generalizing, but what on basis do you make the claim that women and men are absolutely nothing of what I claim many of them to be, other than the consensus of people that you know?

 

[Labyrinth]

Welcome to the world of the Nice Guy TM [http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml].

It's not that to be a man one has to be brutal, egotistic, power hungry or anything of the sort. Nor is it that all men are just out to get laid. It's more that there are a few errant dickheads who seriously believe that the best way to "get a chick" is to act into her friendship circle then expect to get laid. I cannot understand why these people are surprised when someone they're turned down because she only ever saw them as a friend. We aren't telepathic, despite all superstitions. We won't know if you're being friendly for the sake of being friendly or for the sake of getting laid, and any time a woman finds herself lied to about intentions she is a little more wary next time.

Some of this comes from the misconception that All! Women! Ever! Like! The! Same! Characteristics! Some women like men who aren't concerned about showing their feelings. Others don't. Some don't find men attractive at all. Nothing's going to change that.

 

[matrix3509]

I'll start off by saying that I haven't had the hugest success with women in the past (a.k.a.:my high school and college years). I've found that as I've gotten older, I've had more and more success. I've thought about it for a long time, and this is the only explanation that makes any sense to me:

During my high school years, I had next to no success with dating/relationships. I couldn't figure out why. I had no friends of the opposite sex, so I couldn't very well ask them. Then about half-way through my education, I sort of gave up and concentrated on the other things that interested me (Star Wars, programming, mathematics, more Star Wars, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and more Star Wars). I eventually got so involved in these things, that I ceased to care what other people (especially girls) thought of me (I paid the price for that, with my smartassness, I regularly got the crap beat out of me. It got to the point that if the person I was talking to didn't share my interests, I would immediately become disinterested in them. It was like they didn't even exist to me. Once I got to college though, I had to tone down that elitist vibe, lest I become like the professors, whom I loathed.

Anyways, to make an already too-long story a little shorter, I ended up making a sort of "code" for interacting with people, for myself to live by. I would stick to this code no matter what. I made myself promise that I would not change who I am for anyone for any reason. If I found myself liking someone and I found out that that person was to different from what my code told me I should be interested in, I forced myself to forget about that person. My code told me that I should be proud of who I am, and to not change for anyone no matter who they may be. If someone doesn't like who I am, fuck 'em, I'm not out to please them anyway, I'm out to make myself happy and no one else. If I meet someone who can accept me for who I am, then they are welcome to join my life, if not, then fuck off 'cause I'm not interested.

Anyway, since then, I've had much more success than in the past, and going off my experiences, I think women mostly just want a guy who is true to themselves. Too many guys these days will change their entire personality when they are around a beautiful woman. When I see these guys putting such women on pedestals, it makes me want to go over and pull the pedestal out from under her. I usually don't even bother though, because I wouldn't even be interested in her anyway.

 

[DoW Lowen]

OT, I appreciate that, mate. So because I'm honest with my female friends, I don't treat them as sex objects, I respect them for who they are, and, basically, I'm not a prick, I'm automatically not male? God only knows why you're not doing university lectures.

When I say male or masculine or male I don't mean prick, asshole, or jerk. Yet when I mention the word male that is your immediate stereotype. When I say male I mean someone who is "egocentric, power hungry and seeks to be dominant", it sounds blunt but you don't think a man, or at least the societal expectation of man is not -
1) confident in his place in the world (egocentric),
2)seeks to exceed his potential and gain as much of what he sees as value whether it be character, love or material goods (power hungry)
3) seeks to be in control of himself and his immediate world (seeks to be dominant)

I never said a man couldn't be nice, I'm saying a nice guy without the above traits is does not fall under the GENDER not biological sex. If you're honest and respectful, power to you. But if you lack confidence and the ability to take control of your world, than no you fail to fit with the GENDER ideologies of a male.

I apologize if you feel insulted, but when I said masculine you're thoughts seem to immediately jump to a terrible gender stereotype of unemotional asshole of a guy. I think you should re-examine your perceptions on what you consider to be masculine and feminine.

 

[DoW Lowen]

Wow, thanks alot OP. You've really pissed me off.

With all do respect, may I ask why?

 

[Nickolai77]

EDIT:
Regarding the Nice Guy phenomenon, embittered self-declared Nice Guys generally fail to attract women because they are not actually nice at all. [http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2007/12/explainer-what-is-nice-guy.html]

Interesting read. Yes, the blogger makes the valid and generally, i say generally, true point that nice guys feel bitter towards the opposite sex. Now, i am a self confessed "nice guy" and i have been through the "nice guy" trap that so many of us fall into and which blogger accuratly describes.

However i just don't agree with his main point, which is that "nice guys" are actually not nice at all, because the only reason they be nice to the girl they fancy is so that they can get into her pants. While this is in part correct, it is grossly simplfing what these nice guys feel towards a woman of which they fancy. It is much more than just lust. They feel compassion, freindship, share both joy and sorrow with this special person which they hold dearly, they share special memories like any good freinds do, and build up mutual respect towards each other. Those few "nice guys" who would only feign interest in a girl just to get in her pants, are indeed not nice guys at all, and rightly see women as more than that.

While the nice guy often does not get the girl at the end of the day,the reward of freindship is more than enough compensation for any bitterness felt due to "not getting into the girls pants." Intoverted nice guys, due to their generally reflective nature, would know well their own emotions and how to rationise them when the girl of their dreams becomes a "closed book". After all, if they are truely freinds then he would respect her choice, and any feelings of bitterness would be compensated by a continued freindship and rationisation of his own emotions.

It would appear that blogger you linked as come to the unconfortable realisation that he, as he once thought, is not really a "nice guy" at all,however rather than deciding he is simply not a nice guy, he makes the common error of thinking that all the other nice guys are just like him, when clearly they are not.

 

[Agema]

I think men have tendencies towards being egocentric, power-hungry and domineering, but the vast number of men who aren't that way would suggest the tendency is very limited. I think most women actually find egocentric, power-hungry and domineering men a turn off. What they probably like more are assertive men, where I mean assertive in the sense of psychology. Google "assertiveness" and you'll find hundreds of pages on it, mostly self-help courses.

The idea is that passive people don't feel able to express how they feel and what they want, which leads to them feeling disappointment and frustration. To a potential lover, that will probably mean inability to engage her, and if they do they may come across as weak. Aggressive or domineering people try to bully other people into doing their will, which causes frustration, anger and disappointment in the other party. Few women will want to put up with that.

Assertive people, however, express how they feel and what they want, and crucially also find out what other people feel and want. It's not a case of always getting your way, but the ability to state your case so people can pay attention and stand up to bullying, which can get results. On the flipside, it's finding out what other people want and the acceptance that sometimes what you want is not appropriate to the other person and you should compromise or concede.

I think women will generally like assertiveness because that means someone strong and confident enough to stand up for themselves and her if needed, who stops to consider her feelings and thoughts, and doesn't just override her opinion or will when it suits them.

 

[DoW Lowen]

Any girl who would rather me be an egottistic prick than a generally nice person can go to hell. Who says I can't be a man if I dont pour testosterone from my ears? Or are you basically saying that if I treat my girlfreind with more love than my freinds, then I'm sexist?

I'm with this man.

I can't think of any woman who wouldn't like a husband who actually listens to them and is sensitive.

I don't act differently around the either sex. Why should you have to? We're all people, but with a few differences, but we all have the ability to listen and respond.

Your post seems to be largely based around stereotypes.

Firstly apologies to the moderators for the number of double posts, but I can't reply to everyone at once, and it would be rude for me to leave so many posts out there with no response.

Anyway,
While that may seem true, consider this -

Firstly when I say masculine why do you automatically imagine a "prick"? You imagine a beefy jock type with veins coming from his muscle neck gaybashing with a claw hammer? Possibly exaggerated, but you get my point.

When I say male or masculine or male I don't mean prick, asshole, or jerk. Yet when I mention the word male that is your immediate stereotype. When I say male I mean someone who is "egocentric, power hungry and seeks to be dominant", it sounds blunt but you don't think a man, or at least the societal expectation of man is not -
1) confident in his place in the world (egocentric),
2)seeks to exceed his potential and gain as much of what he sees as value whether it be character, love or material goods (power hungry)
3) seeks to be in control of himself and his immediate world (seeks to be dominant)

This was copied from another post I just made but it's easier to copy it than retype it out slightly differently.

Secondly, and I can safely say this much without empirical evidence and most women don't get married with someone they think doesn't respect them and values them completely, yet with divorce rate in western countries 45% in Australia and about 50% in the US, you don't think that perhaps many of those women may have misjudged their man a bit or even vice versa?

Of course there are always several factors contributing to divorce, but according to Knapp's ten step model of a relationship every relationship that has ended in separation eventually stagnates, and during that stage the thing that are seen are this
- Husband and Wife begin to perceive a loss of value in regards their spouse's identity, idealogies, image and opinions.
- There is severely less communication
- Chances of infidelity dramatically increases

List goes on, but I'm sure you get the idea. The point I'm making is that it you normally can't always tell until it's too late. If want a better reference, look up Daniel Gilbert a world leading social psychologist who did a longitudinal study of married couples for a better idea of what I'm saying, because I don't think I'm explaining it well.

Also I'm not saying this to be rude, but people seem to be reading what they only want to read. I never said if you listened at all you were sexist, I was merely pointing out that in cases such as I presented, sexism exists in even very subtle ways.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Defining someone as a "Nice Guy" is like defining a woman as a "Nice Personality". Possibly the nastiest stab-in-the-back that's allowed in polite company.

What's worse is that "successful" men and women follow up by turning the "nice guy" into something lower than human that it's alright to compare to a paedophile.

Women don't go for bad guys, in general, they just get enthralled by his learnt charms: before being dumped or running for help when he turns into an asshole.

And guess what? Same happens for the reverse AND for homosexual relationships.

For this to work though, the "nice" character must be crucified by the "nasty" character and then replaced. All the great Casanovas/Vamps loathe the other sex and use them for their own insecurities. Which is fine for casual sex, but with a longer lasting relationship you want something you can at least rely on.

The woman's world is as nasty emotionally as the man's can be physically, so a successful mate needs to be able to take the rough and tumble of either world, and for sensitive people that can be really difficult.

(Our version of "sensitive male" would be "She's frigid")

Sooooo...you can be sensitive, you just need to have something more to your personality than just being "nice".

(Attached+Sensitive)

 

[Doclector]

TBH, I'm a little offended. It seems a bit sexist to assume all men are like that, but then again, I hate PC, and on an evolutionary level, you have a strong point, so I won't make an issue of it.

Anyway, I know I'm not like that, I'm merely a quite uncool, unnatractive person. I do never try to never show weakness though, I don't know if it's society, or simple cruel human nature, but I feel weakness is rarely tolerated in this world. Not that I think that's the way it should be, far from it, it's just the way it is. I rarely talk to women if I can help it, especially one I feel attracted to, as TBH, I feel as an inferior person, I'm not really worthy (for want of a better word).

All in all, I think if anything's wrong with relationships now, it's no evolutionary thing, most people keep such instincts under control, but it's more the way society works. We hae created a world in which we must lie to one another to ever be accepted.