Women and 'sensitive' men

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Burst6

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Nice world we got here. Nowadays people think we are more civilized but now the battlefield moved from the physical power to intelligence. Nowadays a intelligent man has many opportunities to go up in the world, a strong man only has sports.Lucky for me i am big enough not to be threatened and smart enough for a chance in this world. Civilization never really changes.

Unless we find alien life, the universe turns out to be infinite, and there's enough land and supplies to support a infinite number of people, and people generally get rational. I hope that happens someday.
 

Phyroxis

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Apr 18, 2008
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Seldon2639 said:
Phyroxis said:
Seldon2639 said:
You cite experimental psychologists a few times in your reply.. Can I see the sources? (not out of a "neener, neener, caught you being a hypocrite" sort of attitude.. I'm genuinely interested in seeing the research)
Sadly, there's not an awful lot of experimental psychology on this subject (for obvious reasons it's impossible to really do a double-blind experiment in human dating). The logic behind my reasoning (as written by an evolutionary psychologist whose name escapes me now) was that women have an interest in obtaining the best genes for her children, and in obtaining the best caregiver (which are often not the same person). The closest I've found to what I had seen a while ago on the subject was this:

http://www.canadiancrc.com/Newspaper_Articles/Time_Magazine_infidelity_in_genes_15AUG94.aspx

A few other studies have come to similar conclusions about behavior:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1559901

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Near-Ovulation-Your-Cheatin-Heart-6713.aspx?RelNum=6713

Basically, women prefer more "feminine" features (rounded faces, clean-shaven) for men during their luteal (post ovulatory) phase, and prefer more "masculine" features (stubble, square jaws, ect) during their ovulatory phase. On the broader scale, women want (a) a man to provide for them and their children, and (b) a man to provide the "best" genetic code. Since often those men are different people, it encourages the woman to want to be impregnated by the "bad boy" and get the "nice guy" to rear the child.

This, of course, becomes much less effective in light of both birth control, and paternity tests (not to mention the predilection among many "nice" guys to avoid women with a long sexual history and dump women who cheat on them).

Found a direct source... Not sure if the link will work, but here it is anyway.

Gangestad, S., Garver-Apgar, C., Simpson, J., & Cousins, A. (2007, January). Changes in women's mate preferences across the ovulatory cycle. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 92(1), 151-163. Retrieved September 8, 2009, doi:10.1037/0022-3514.92.1.151

http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost/detail?vid=12&hid=7&sid=33990a61-3670-4cf3-8de5-23e821afb0b8@sessionmgr111&bdata=JmxvZ2lucGFnZT1Mb2dpbi5hc3Amc2l0ZT1laG9zdC1saXZl#db=pdh&AN=psp-92-1-151
 

DoW Lowen

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EDIT: When I say masculine types, why do many people here assume I talk about jerks, beef heads, jocks, uncaring assholes? If that's the first thing you think of than perhaps you should examine what your general conceptions of what you consider to masculine and feminine before you're quick to shoot down an argument.
 

DoW Lowen

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Ciarang said:
DoW Lowen said:
Any male who does not exhibit these behaviours in some form or manner is not male, I do not speak in the biological sense, rather from a framework which see?s gender and it?s social expectations and sexual anatomy as separate. To be those qualities is to be a man ? and this is from an evolutionary stand point.
So I'm a woman then ?
You misattribute my argument.

Difference between gender and sex, gender are social norms and conventions which are attributed a person's biological sex. If you are not a person who feels they are confident, a need to be in control of his life and a overall need to thrive to be the best, than no you do not follow the general conventions and ideologies that society has for men.
 

Gunner_Guardian

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Your post is mostly true but none the less filled with generalizations.

Everyone get's turned on by different things.

Some people have this turned on it's head with females choosing to be dominant and controlling. But this view represents the super-conscience of society and how connected you are to the popular opinion probably pulls you closer to this generalization.

I've found I can't live as neither a tough guy or sensitive guy. I seemily need to be both... if that makes any sense. Probably comes from both my parents seemily have extremely split values and both being very dominant.
 

DoW Lowen

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Seldon2639 said:
I'm so glad I get to use the following phrase, thus lending some form of use to my sociology classes:

Your entire presumption is based in a heteronormative worldview. Yay for me.

But, more broadly, here's the issue:

You begin with an assumption for how "men" act, and then proceed to prove your point through a simple recitation of that core belief. Even ignoring your obvious "no true Scotsman" fallacy (in which you posit that a man acts a certain way, and any deviation would render someone "not a real man"), you still don't bring any real evidence not predicated on your initial assumptions.

Your read of the landscape, while perhaps valid, is shaded wildly by your worldview. Instead of rendering an impartial assessment of what's actually happening, you begin with an assumption, and your analysis of other "facts" both stems from and "proves" your original assertion. Circular logic at its best.

And, not for nothing, but your logic of "men don't respect women, and so are able to open up to them/be nice guys/show sensitivity, ect" cuts both ways. If what you say is true, wouldn't it be just as likely that because men don't respect women, they feel no need to get a woman's input, don't open up to them at all (because they don't want to show weakness toward potential mates), and instead only open up to their male friends?

You're going over the well-trodden ground of "why do women like bad boys" and doing so without having looked at really *any* of the sociological or psychological research, and that makes you a bit of a hack. Anecdotes, while amusing, cannot count as evidence for the kind of generalization you want to make. If "nice guys finish last" there should be no nice guys after a few generations, whereas evolutionary psychologists now believe that the difference is in the stage of a woman's life (and fertility cycle) she's in. "Bad boys" are more successful in adolescence and early adulthood. "Nice guys" (to use phrases I personally abhor) are more successful in terms of marriage and settling down in families.

Admittedly, many evolutionary psychologists also admit that the optimum solution for a woman, then, would be to procreate with the "bad boy" (for his genes), but settle down with the "nice guy" (for his child rearing). This, if she were successful, would get the nice guy to raise the jerk's kids, which would mean he finishes last, but paternity tests are brilliant things.

Finally, to address the entire "nice guy" vs. "bad boy" issue:

Why do we assume that this is the only salient detail of the choice between dating two individual men? If two men were perfectly equivalent in all other ways (physical attractiveness, intelligence, humor, ect.) do we really believe that a woman would decide to date the "bad boy" 100% of the time? Or, are we accepting that nice guys (like Avis) are second best, so they try harder? If that's true, then don't talk about the divide in terms of "nice guys" and "bad boys"; if it's about physical looks, talk about "ugly" versus "Adonis".

If I were to posit a theory, it would be that the so-called "bad boys" are that way simply because they are attractive enough to not have to put as much effort into getting girls. The "bad boys" don't get girls because they're bad, they're bad because they don't have to be nice to get girls. Nice guys are less attractive (for whatever reason) and thus have to put more effort into getting girls. Aloofness itself isn't attractive, rather one has to be attractive to be aloof.

I get that it's more pleasant (given that most men on sites like this would put themselves more squarely in the "nice" grouping) to believe the factors to be either something outside of our control, or even the girls simply being wrong about their choices, but there's no evidence beyond bare speculation to support that assumption.
I'm glad you're more willing to discuss as opposed to simply yelling, thank you for that.

Firstly, yes I am generalizing, a lot. I know that the more certain a person sounds the more people will respond as opposed to 'it could possibly' or 'i think'. I purposely made an argument sound more concrete for the sake of argument, of course I'm sure a few people out are outside my window with kerosene and a glass bottle now.

In this reply I will only respond with facts that have empirical support, just so no one can say I'm generalizing with this particular post, I won't cite any references because I don't think everyone knows how to understand APA. Oh and heteronormative is correct, 5 points for you.

If you do sociology, and if you've covered construction of gender than you would no doubt know that there is a difference of gender and sex. When I say 'man' I refer to a convention of rules and expectations that is attributed to a biological sex. Also read my edit in the OP, when I say masculine I don't refer to jocks, assholes, jerks and bad boys. I hate it when people read only what they want to read.

Also about the whole nice guy thing, a male if they feel inadequate in terms of their dating potential will accentuate their strengths in order to make up for their weaknesses. So if a guy's strength is being kind, being nice, trying harder than he will build upon those qualities in order. And the qualities he lacks will be considered unimportant to him. Ask a guy what they think is a 'good dating partner', and he will state qualities that he just coincidentally happens to possess and will more than likely not mention ones he doesn't have.

For women being attracted to "bad boys", the dynamics of mating have changed in the 21st century. With a lot of women not wishing to have offspring they are shown to still be attracted and will more likely settle with the qualities I mentioned above as opposed to the nicer person who doesn't fit the masculine criteria.
 

DoW Lowen

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Meemaimoh said:
While I may not agree with Lowen 100%, the general points were spot on. I'm not offended at all, in fact I believe the people most offended by this are most likely defined within it, and don't want to admit the possibility that Lowen is right at some level. Which only goes to justify the point that man are egocentric, as your ego has been attacked and now you're hurt.
BAWWWWWW!!
WHo cares.
If it doesn't apply to you, you're either an amazing exception or not self-aware.
If it does, I'm glad that there are males out there that can admit their flaws and move on.
Which "general points" were spot on, exactly?

Men are egocentric, power hungry and seek to be dominant? This may be the case for you and your acquaintences, but I personally have never come across it, and let's face it, your anecdotal evidence is only as valid as mine.

Nice guys finish last? As has been addressed several times already in this thread, this is utter nonsense. I won't bother repeating it.

The male species are great performers? Guess what? This is true for the entire human race. Everyone acts according to their current social context.

With a woman they are not afraid to appear vulnerable? Probably true that men will expose their emotions more readily to the woman they are with at the time, but the same is true for women with their men.

A lot of men don't value a woman's opinion? Not once have I felt my opinion being slighted by a man based on my sex. Not once in my entire life. If you agree with this, well then, I'm glad I don't know you.

Of course everyone's a little sexist. That's everyone, not just men. But really, the OP has it all wrong.
Firstly I wish people wouldn't agree with me entirely, because I did generalize massively. IT was for the sake of opening up an argument. A specific argument will generally get less response and an argument that seems more certain will strike the skeptic nerve in the back of everyone's mind and illicit a more well thought out response such as this as opposed to "I don't think so" or "Yeah I kind of agree".

Now onto Meemaioh. hello =)

Firstly I'm sorry for the stalker thing, but on your profile you said you're a student. Judging from you're age you'd be in your honors or post graduate year. In an academic setting, it would be VERY unlikely that your opinions would be slighted so I don't think you should base the idea of male value of female opinion based on your experience. Not being rude, I'm just stating that everywhere else incidents such as this is more common than you'd might think. Why do you think that many women always say they have to try harder to get by as opposed to men. Because in a patriarchal society a male will value the effort and opinion of women less readily, and the sensitive guy example i gave is just one minor subtle example of it. And I was trying to show how deep and small sexism can be.

When you say women will be more vulnerable with men, not entirely true. Women will open up to people they feel comfortable with and are less likely to take the person's sex into account. Men however are more likely to do just that. If you were to look at in psycho-analytically it is probably due to a mother-nurture issue, but I won't get into that.

Anyway thanks for taking the time to think out a reply, I hope to discuss other issues with you in the future.
 

TheFacelessOne

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deathsong17 said:
Any girl who would rather me be an egottistic prick than a generally nice person can go to hell. Who says I can't be a man if I dont pour testosterone from my ears? Or are you basically saying that if I treat my girlfreind with more love than my freinds, then I'm sexist?
I'm with this man.

I can't think of any woman who wouldn't like a husband who actually listens to them and is sensitive.

I don't act differently around the either sex. Why should you have to? We're all people, but with a few differences, but we all have the ability to listen and respond.

Your post seems to be largely based around stereotypes.
 

sabaducia

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Aug 6, 2009
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Interesting, interesting.
I think a lot of this is subjective though. I myself are attracted to someone who is strong (physically) to protect me, and confident enough to get where he wants to be etc. SO yes I have fallen victim (by choice) to a lot of the alpha male sterotypes. Having said that, I may have stumbled upon an exception to the rule - or maybe it's not that simple.

I've been with the same man for 2 years now, and we're not just a couple, we're also best friends and confidants (aw). He respects everything I say, and beyond that he defends what I think against his friends too. We tell each other if we disagree morally, or think differently of the other person because of something they believe or have said.
Recently at a friend's barbecue, the topic of discussion was "girls who let their guys cheat, are keepers". Despite his best friend agreeing, he didn't back down from arguing against the point - and supported what I had to say on the topic too.

Compartmentalizing men as either 'nice doormats' or 'alpha-male jerks' is too blunt and ignorant. The real deal-breaker is whether you have the same moral values and beliefs. If you disagree on major issues, more often than not someone is going to fold just to 'keep the peace'. If it's the guy, he's now seen as a 'nice doormat' - which to an extent is true. Anyone willing to comprimise their own values for the sake of argument, hasn't developed enough confidence in themselves.

You say that when men have open discourse with each other, it's more honest than if it were a man with a woman. I'm speaking for myself alone here, but I disagree. Trusting anyone enough to have truthful, open discussion depends entirely on how much you trust them - not gender. I can say in full confidence that my boyfriend confides in me a lot more than he would ever consider with his friends, and a lot of this is because he respects my opinion, and trusts I will react honestly. We both believe that certain things are to be kept between ourselves, but that doesn't make either of us 'weak'. In fact it shows the opposite - we're strong enough to not bend our own rules. Rarely, when we differ on something (nothing 'big', yet) we will agree to disagree with a mutual respect for the other person's choice.

Your view of a man depends on your own views to begin with. So rather than focusing on stereotypes or social trends, perhaps look more closely at yourself. If you're comfortable with being treated differently, that's your prerogative - it has little bearing on the man himself. If you want to find someone who fits into your own mindset, you just have to keep looking. Trying to change someone is already hard enough, you can't try and change an entire 'group' of men too! So find one you don't have to change.

EDIT: when I say 'jerks', I'm not trying to infer that masculinity=jerk. I am just using a broad colloquialism to sum up the behaviour inherent to that 'group' of men. A lot of my friends would fall under that heading, and they're not bad people, they just behave towards women in a way that is best described as somewhat 'jerk' like. Just as sensitivity=/=doormat, it's a broad descriptor for behaviours - not a definition.
 

Akai Shizuku

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I was told long ago that women like nice, sensitive guys. I became one out of coincidence.

I now know that women prefer douchebags.
 

Naheal

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First, I must commend you, sir. This is quite possibly the best troll that I've ever read.

Burst6 said:
Nice world we got here. Nowadays people think we are more civilized but now the battlefield moved from the physical power to intelligence. Nowadays a intelligent man has many opportunities to go up in the world, a strong man only has sports.Lucky for me i am big enough not to be threatened and smart enough for a chance in this world. Civilization never really changes.

Unless we find alien life, the universe turns out to be infinite, and there's enough land and supplies to support a infinite number of people, and people generally get rational. I hope that happens someday.
This is probably the best way to put it now. Intelligence is becoming more and more valued as time goes on. I can be verbally vicious, adding both hints and large amounts of, sarcasm and venom to my words. Does this count as defense?

More to the point, if a man is looked to for "leadership" in a relationship, a good leader would listen to any advice that his closest advisor would be, in this example, the woman in the relationship. The greater the intimacy in this relationship, the better the advice would be and, thus, it would end up being almost impossible to tell who's making the decisions and who's not, when, really, it's just a matter of who had the better idea at the time.
 

mshcherbatskaya

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Feb 1, 2008
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But why is it with a woman that they are not afraid to vulnerable. Why is it that when other people will call a man shallow assholes, there is some woman out there other than their mother who will defend them claiming they are "complicated, misunderstood, more than meets the eye"? It's simple really, those women can see the vulnerable side the men consciously or unconsciously chooses to show them. Everything I stated leads up to the next statement -

A lot of men don't value a woman's opinion, which is why they are not generally afraid to show them weakness.
I won't say this categorically about men in general, but rather about a certain, quite common type of man - it's not that they don't value a woman's opinion (although often they don't.) Rather, it's that they have the unquestioned expectation that the women in their lives are there to take care of them emotionally. And the fact is, women buy into this to. But this isn't just in intimate relationships. One of the quickest ways for a woman to get labeled a ***** is to, for however legitimate a reason, refuse to give him her time and attention.

It's essentially an infantile dynamic. Women have been responsible, in reality up to a point, and in his mind thereafter, for his contentment, and when he is denied it, he fusses and squalls and throws a tantrum. If you are a man, you probably don't end up in the kitchen after holiday dinners with the rest of the women, but I can tell you that women who are in this kind of pseudo-nurturing relationship openly regard and speak of their husbands and boyfriends as if they were children, and the chronic complaint is "He's a grown man and I'm tired of having to be his mom!"

Not that I believe this is psychosocial or sociobiological by any means. It's just that the culture never disabuses him of the notion that women, when you get right down to it, exist to take care of him. And it tends to send the matching message to women as well. Her security is his responsibility, and his happiness is her responsibility. In theory, these roles are intended to be complementary. In practice, they often devolve into a kind of mutual parasitism.

There's a flip-side dynamic which I have also seen, but which I think is quite a bit rarer, and that is the Daddy's Little Girl dynamic. It exists, but it's difficult to pull off, particularly if the woman is not conventionally pretty, and it doesn't tend to survive the rigors of motherhood and aging intact.


EDIT:
Regarding the Nice Guy phenomenon, embittered self-declared Nice Guys generally fail to attract women because they are not actually nice at all. [http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2007/12/explainer-what-is-nice-guy.html]
 

mshcherbatskaya

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Avykins said:
Chicks do not want clingy guys.
(Emphasis mine.)

God help me, I think I just agreed with you on something. I can't endorse the attitude of women "as being there for my pleasure," but to put a more positive spin on it, there is something very attractive about a man who has taken responsibility for his own happiness. Doubly so if he isn't a dick.
 

mshcherbatskaya

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Oh, I get the point, and I appreciate it. You are...self-sufficient and expect other people to be the same. The reason I can't fully endorse your statement as you put it is because of the way it treats other people as essentially disposable objects, and because I believe there is an important distinction to be made between pleasure and happiness.

There is one other attraction for women in a man that is overtly and strictly out for a good time--a woman knows where she stands with a guy like that. If she's run a few rounds with passive-aggressive dishonesty of some Nice Guys(tm), it might even be refreshing to date a guy or two who is very up front about the fact that he's pretty much looking to get laid and that's it.

The grief comes when she, having been raised to believe that the management of male emotions is her job, decides that she's going to reform, redeem, remodel him into, not a Nice Guy(tm) but a Good Man(tm). That never ends well.
 

AvsJoe

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May 28, 2009
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I'm getting really tired of being the "nice guy", the "friend". Fuck this noise, I'm going to change my personality. Thanks for the epiphany OP.
 

Kurokami

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I generally don't open up to anyone, but those I do don't come with gender prerequisites, just who I'm closest to. Also I don't mind acting 'feminine' sometimes, I'm comfortable with who i am, not gay but sophisticated.