Women aren't Babies

[Ledan]

You can't actually prove that women are picked on by men more often than men insult one another, but you feel comfortable stating: "Because the harassment of women is much more common, more vicious, and part of a society with deeply rooted gender problems."

So you're spreading information you can't back up and are riding a stereotype along the sexism tracks?

No, I am speaking based on my own experiences.

Being called names sucks. I was bullied a lot, so I get it. The first few times you're called a name, it's no big deal. By the tenth it starts to wear on you and by the hundredth you've had enough. But this happens to everyone. I'm not saying women don't face sexism in the world (in some parts of the world, sexism is the standard). But sometimes it feels less about stopping assholes, and more about women being special.

I've got no doubt in my mind that you're in this debate because in your experience, you or a friend or someone you know has been treated poorly and in a sexist fashion. I very much doubt your part of some gyno conspiracy to take over the world and crush men. But the way some people talk about it, you'd think gender mattered more to them than the assholes they fight.

I want to be on the side fighting for everyone. I want everyone to be treated like a person, not a sex, gender, race, creed or social economic figure. I want a community and a world where no one even notices these things, where sex is as relevant to eye colour. You do too, I bet. But to me it often seems like more effort goes into talking about how bad women have it and how much help they need, than how to make everyone equal.

Am I making any sense?

Yes. There should be movies/games with characters who are not just white males, but that doesn't mean those characters need to be defined by their race/gender. Doesn't need to be a pot issue.
There is no patriarchy, there are just a lot of people who are assholes.
Ads are not just sexist against women, they are often equally sexist to men ( Man who tricks his wife to go drink a beer, and wife believes him, or some such. Sexist to both.... or classic: men cant work because a hot woman goes by)
Most gamers who are portrayed as sexist in mmos aren't. They are just horrible human beings who prey on anyone they can.
However, we aren't quite at an equal world yet. So make sure you get more women in movies and games, cause male whitewashing is getting kinda annoying. And stifling creativity.

 

[annoyinglizardvoice]

Okay I'm really tired after being awake for nearly twenty-four hours so I'm probably going to regret this, but...

Just because people getting treated badly on the internet or in a multiplayer setting or some such is considered usual, doesn't mean we should just accept it.

Whether the target is a man, a woman, someone who is straight, gay, bi, black, green or any color in between, means that EVERYONE should turn to the asshole and go "That's not right. Get your shit together or get out."

So the feminists are particularly sensitive to the issue of harrasment against women, doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't also talking about ALL harrasment. (Yes, some are only exclusively talking about women, but those are usually the nuts that take things to far and talk about the "Patriarchy" like it's a super villian in a movie.)

If someone wishes to rally against harrassment online and in game settings against women, GREAT!

If someone wishes to rally against harrasment online and in game settings against men, GREAT!

If someone wishes to rally against harrassment online and in game settings against people of color, GREAT!

If someone wishes to rally against harrassment online and in game settings against people of the LGBT community, GREAT!

And the more people who rally, means the bigger and bigger forces assholes have to go against whenever they're pissed they lost against someone.

You say that the owners of the game can ban the person, but that doesn't mean that the community should just "let the moderators handle it." It's the job of the community to work with the moderators and with each other to make sure everyone has an enjoyable gaming experience.

Now I'm off to bed.

I agree with this mentality.

I do also feel that there is some more justification for complaints about misogynistic comments due to the number of invalid teenage lads who tend to get in a strop just because there is a girl online who's a) just kicked their arse at whatever game they're on, or b) just turned them down when they assume that any girl they meet online must be bot into them and nearby. While said lads are usually dicks to other groups as well, they don't have quite the same level of motivation to be abusive to them.

 

[Icehearted]

@Clearing the Eye
I made no mention of traditional gender roles, but I do believe that men and women are not equal, and that neither side has one intrinsically superior position over another. I did say "There is a healthy give and take on both sides that many women I've known have admitted enjoying" and I believe this (as it has been my experience). It is also a personal preference. For example I don't prefer that the man always be the one to ask out women, I like being asked out by women. I like the way a woman looks in a dress, or with long pretty hair, or in my jacket when it's cold. If that makes me a sexist then the definition of sexism has been gravely distorted. That also doesn't mean that I think other people have to be this way, that's just how it's been for me and how I prefer it. I don't know anyone that has ever called a woman buying her own engagement ring and proposing marriage "traditional", but that's an experience I've had as well (and I declined, not that it's relevant).

If (for example) a M/F couple gets married and they want her to carry him across the threshold or take on her last name, more power to them; they're not me, it's not my life, I don't have any say and I don't care.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I agree with every last thing stated by the OP so far.

Except....

We all know the shitty reality of a *small* but very vocal aspect of the online world and we all deal with it.

And this is based on....?

Right. Just try not to appear a hypocrite next time.

Though I have met many more of such scum on the internet myself, too many to call it a small minority, and this is on the escapist especially.

Could you explain what you mean by hypocrisy? I don't see it.

You were bashing on thaluikhain for not being able to prove his/her statement with hard facts yet you also make a very similar statement in your main post.

Oh, fair enough. I just assumed it was evident that the portion of assholes was small, because we define bad people as those doing worse than the majority. Thus, it's impossible for "bad" to be anything more than a minority, else it wouldn't be bad. For example: if everyone beat cats and dogs to death, it wouldn't be bad--it would be normal.

Captcha: pipe dream

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I do believe that men and women are not equal, and that neither side has one intrinsically superior position over another.

I don't understand. You believe men and women aren't equal, but that no side is superior? If it's unequal, there must be a dominant side and a lesser side.

 

[Easton Dark]

You sexist pig!

I get what you mean. You probably haven't seen an earlier thread I was in (one I started) where I explained that I have this "urge" to comfort women in a lot of distress. It's a long story, but you get the idea.

That sort of thing is fine. I mean, what's the harm in helping people, yeah? The issue comes up when people only help women, not because it's nice, but because they're women. It's sexism, just not in the usual way.

Um, there's only one sexism. That's where you treat people differently based on gender. It can be offensive or helpful. Yours is helpful.

And yeah that sort of thing is fine as long as you would also comfort distressed men and not say "fuck you, I only help people with vaginas".

 

[Clearing the Eye]

You sexist pig!

I get what you mean. You probably haven't seen an earlier thread I was in (one I started) where I explained that I have this "urge" to comfort women in a lot of distress. It's a long story, but you get the idea.

That sort of thing is fine. I mean, what's the harm in helping people, yeah? The issue comes up when people only help women, not because it's nice, but because they're women. It's sexism, just not in the usual way.

Um, there's only one sexism. That's where you treat people differently based on gender. It can be offensive or helpful. Yours is helpful.

And yeah that sort of thing is fine as long as you would also comfort distressed men and not say "fuck you, I only help people with vaginas".

Mm. That's what I said: "It's sexism, just not in the usual way." Most people think sexism means treating a sex like crap, see. So I was just pointing out that sexism is simply treating a a sex differently to another.

Now that would be hilarious.

"Help me!"

-"Do you have a vagina?"

"What? No."

-"Welp, sorry then."

 

[lord.jeff]

Now, I know you all know this, but very few people seem to remember it lately. What happens when someone makes a thread and wants to talk about how many names they were called in the latest Call of Duty? "You need thick skin to be on the internet." "Toughen up." "Get over it." I agree. People on the net can suck and the best thing to do is ignore them and take their words with a grain of salt. Is it nice that they are raging assholes? No. Should they be forced to stop? Not legally, no. But the game's owners can ban them. Point being, "It's the internet. What do you expect?" It's a well known and sad fact that people treat each other like crap online.

I'm not gonna accept someone being an ass just because it's the internet, I expect minors in all form of communication. So if a person is a dick to a women, a homosexual, a child or anyone then rage on my friend.

 

[Nemesis729]

I've been called names I didn't even know existed. My nickname for an entire round of TF2 was ****** after I lightly flirted with my boyfriend whom I was playing with.

While you certainly didn't deserve to be called such an offensive slur, or any name at all, because of your sexual orientation (I'm assuming you're a man, can't be sure) you really shouldn't be "flirting" on any level with a boyfriend/girlfriend over a public chat in game. It can be awkward for other people in the chat, similar to PDA in real social situations.

OT: I think you make some good points, though I don't think anything can really be done about, some men have a natural urge to defend a woman if they see them become subject to insults. Is this sexist? yes, But I don't really see it as much of a problem, The real problem at hand, I think, is men who still treat women like lesser beings. Eventually that may not be a problem, then would be the time to tackle men treating women to protectively.

That's just my two cents.

Don't worry, it wasn't anything close to gross, lol. It was basically "Oh you *****, you stole that kill form me." "You still love me." "Maaaaaybe." That might not be the exact words, but that's the idea.

I'm sure what you said wasn't vulgar, but it's still not something that had to be said over a public chat... I know I'm coming off as a prude but I know the last thing I want to hear while gaming is a reminder that I don't have a girlfriend (lol)

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Now, I know you all know this, but very few people seem to remember it lately. What happens when someone makes a thread and wants to talk about how many names they were called in the latest Call of Duty? "You need thick skin to be on the internet." "Toughen up." "Get over it." I agree. People on the net can suck and the best thing to do is ignore them and take their words with a grain of salt. Is it nice that they are raging assholes? No. Should they be forced to stop? Not legally, no. But the game's owners can ban them. Point being, "It's the internet. What do you expect?" It's a well known and sad fact that people treat each other like crap online.

I'm not gonna accept someone being an ass just because it's the internet, I expect minors in all form of communication. So if a person is a dick to a women, a homosexual, a child or anyone then rage on my friend.

I think it's better to tell them once to be quite. If that fails, it's best to mute them and report their behavior to an admin or moderator. Raging at them usually just makes it worse and you can end up being more annoying than them.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I've been called names I didn't even know existed. My nickname for an entire round of TF2 was ****** after I lightly flirted with my boyfriend whom I was playing with.

While you certainly didn't deserve to be called such an offensive slur, or any name at all, because of your sexual orientation (I'm assuming you're a man, can't be sure) you really shouldn't be "flirting" on any level with a boyfriend/girlfriend over a public chat in game. It can be awkward for other people in the chat, similar to PDA in real social situations.

OT: I think you make some good points, though I don't think anything can really be done about, some men have a natural urge to defend a woman if they see them become subject to insults. Is this sexist? yes, But I don't really see it as much of a problem, The real problem at hand, I think, is men who still treat women like lesser beings. Eventually that may not be a problem, then would be the time to tackle men treating women to protectively.

That's just my two cents.

Don't worry, it wasn't anything close to gross, lol. It was basically "Oh you *****, you stole that kill form me." "You still love me." "Maaaaaybe." That might not be the exact words, but that's the idea.

I'm sure what you said wasn't vulgar, but it's still not something that had to be said over a public chat... I know I'm coming off as a prude but I know the last thing I want to hear while gaming is a reminder that I don't have a girlfriend (lol)

Lolol. I feel you; I'm flying solo lately, too.

*lonely hug*

 

[SpectacularWebHead]

Actually, chronologically some women are babies. Mainly the newborn ones.

As much as I jest, You have a great point, Buuut... If we took away the mornonic white knight threads, How would we get little chunks of dynamite like this:

Examples From "Women don't like assholes"

I am quite surprised by the lack of anus jokes in this thread.

Surprised and disappointed.

And this:

The summary:

Girls date guys for different reasons. Stop lumping us together like some horrible mass of tits, ass, mysteries and judgement. Seriously, that seems more unattractive than not being confident.

If we remove These threads, when else will there be oppurtunities for such mass hilarity?

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Actually, chronologically some women are babies. Mainly the newborn ones.

As much as I jest, You have a great point, Buuut... If we took away the mornonic white knight threads, How would we get little chunks of dynamite like this:

Examples From "Women don't like assholes"

I am quite surprised by the lack of anus jokes in this thread.

Surprised and disappointed.

And this:

The summary:

Girls date guys for different reasons. Stop lumping us together like some horrible mass of tits, ass, mysteries and judgement. Seriously, that seems more unattractive than not being confident.

If we remove These threads, when else will there be oppurtunities for such mass hilarity?

Don't worry, we would still have the friendzone threads and the foaming rage of whatever game ending people don't like next, lol.

 

[lord.jeff]

Now, I know you all know this, but very few people seem to remember it lately. What happens when someone makes a thread and wants to talk about how many names they were called in the latest Call of Duty? "You need thick skin to be on the internet." "Toughen up." "Get over it." I agree. People on the net can suck and the best thing to do is ignore them and take their words with a grain of salt. Is it nice that they are raging assholes? No. Should they be forced to stop? Not legally, no. But the game's owners can ban them. Point being, "It's the internet. What do you expect?" It's a well known and sad fact that people treat each other like crap online.

I'm not gonna accept someone being an ass just because it's the internet, I expect minors in all form of communication. So if a person is a dick to a women, a homosexual, a child or anyone then rage on my friend.

I think it's better to tell them once to be quite. If that fails, it's best to mute them and report their behavior to an admin or moderator. Raging at them usually just makes it worse and you can end up being more annoying than them.

Fair point, that is probably the best course of action. I just hate the idea that it's the victim's fault for not being able to take it.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Now, I know you all know this, but very few people seem to remember it lately. What happens when someone makes a thread and wants to talk about how many names they were called in the latest Call of Duty? "You need thick skin to be on the internet." "Toughen up." "Get over it." I agree. People on the net can suck and the best thing to do is ignore them and take their words with a grain of salt. Is it nice that they are raging assholes? No. Should they be forced to stop? Not legally, no. But the game's owners can ban them. Point being, "It's the internet. What do you expect?" It's a well known and sad fact that people treat each other like crap online.

I'm not gonna accept someone being an ass just because it's the internet, I expect minors in all form of communication. So if a person is a dick to a women, a homosexual, a child or anyone then rage on my friend.

I think it's better to tell them once to be quite. If that fails, it's best to mute them and report their behavior to an admin or moderator. Raging at them usually just makes it worse and you can end up being more annoying than them.

Fair point, that is probably the best course of action. I just hate the idea that it's the victim's fault for not being able to take it.

It does suck that there is little more than shrugging it off to be done. But stopping people online from being assholes is one hell of a challenge, lol. We've been trying for the past twenty years or so. I think the message behind it is not to let douchebags who have nothing going for them in life to get to you.

 

[Cyfu]

I don't really know how bad women have it online, but saying it's more frequent is not fact,it can't be.(I don't really know though). I mean I've played quite a few Moba style games and I've played it a lot and in almost every match I've played there has been someone being flamed, being called all sorts of things. I've seen a shitload of comments on youtube that attack every person that they disagree with. and I have been called things on youtube for just trying to say they are wrong.

I think the only difference is that flaming against women are like "Get to the kitchen!" and other variables of such.

 

[Icehearted]

I do believe that men and women are not equal, and that neither side has one intrinsically superior position over another.

I don't understand. You believe men and women aren't equal, but that no side is superior? If it's unequal, there must be a dominant side and a lesser side.

It's not as complicated as it sounds. A relationship (just about any kind of relationship) is an organic and dynamic thing in constant flux and made of many parts. You can't look at it like a single piece of rope being pulled between two people, that oversimplifies things way too much. People change, positions change, things always change for better or worse. No one side dominates the other, but one side will always have more say or a stronger position than the other in aspects of the relationship dynamic.

Longer examples follow...

A woman put pregnancy into perspective for me not long ago. She said that during a relationship, no matter who's focused on whom, when a child comes into the dynamic attention will shift more to her. She's pregnant, people will be fawning over her, looking to take care of her, pampering her, while he is largely left out, or has to work harder to care for her during the pregnancy. This then moves the the child, once born, who will then receive most of the attention (in both cases inside and outside of the immediate relationship) where again he is more or less sidelined. This will at times be difficult (if only subconsciously) for her because she was receiving exceptional amounts of attention that has now shifted elsewhere. Through all of this, if she so decides, she could be doing her part to ensure that he does not feel left out, even though for the most part that is exactly what he is; merely a body to labor on behalf of her and their child. She can choose to do this or make it more about herself (which again a lot of women I've known have expressed disgust at this sort of behavior).

So during the relationship, prior to pregnancy, he could have been more dominant in the relationship in aspect such as receiving attention or affection, but that position changes dramatically from him to her during pregnancy, then slightly away from her to be shared with the child after birth.

Which reminds me, it's extremely rare that a man is given majority of guardianship of a child in the event of parental separation, generally this favors the mother, yet he is more financially liable either during the relationship (let's presume married for the sake of this example) and after the relationship, even though he has fewer rights with regard to the child.

 

[Mau95]

Everyone is just overconcerned with the whole feminism thing and women supposedly being delicate/PMS-ing.
Also this supposedly.
http://9gag.com/gag/4463388

 

[SpectacularWebHead]

Actually, chronologically some women are babies. Mainly the newborn ones.

As much as I jest, You have a great point, Buuut... If we took away the mornonic white knight threads, How would we get little chunks of dynamite like this:

Examples From "Women don't like assholes"

I am quite surprised by the lack of anus jokes in this thread.

Surprised and disappointed.

And this:

The summary:

Girls date guys for different reasons. Stop lumping us together like some horrible mass of tits, ass, mysteries and judgement. Seriously, that seems more unattractive than not being confident.

If we remove These threads, when else will there be oppurtunities for such mass hilarity?

Don't worry, we would still have the friendzone threads and the foaming rage of whatever game ending people don't like next, lol.

I am waiting on "Make Dead Space 3 whole" (Can't take credit for that, though I forget who made it up) or "Finish the fight...again".

 

[Treblaine]

Actually every connection on the internet is run by someone, and they have the right to put in any rules they like and anyone who breaks those rules they can block them and remove anything they added to the site. The Escapist in fact has rules. Most servers have rules and it shouldn't be hard to find a server with them and the admin need merely be informed of rule breaking like verbal abuse and they are out.

You may be fine with teasing but that doesn't mean women should have to tolerate misogyny, nor should in fact other people have to sit in silence and tolerate intolerance because they flirted with their boyfriend.

The important thing is these connections want people to connect to them, so server admin will enforce no verbal abuse rules to make sure people don't leave, ditto for websites and so on. The Boss enforces rules that protect as many people as possible.

Women aren't more emotional than men, they just take it differently. Where a man is MORE LIKELY (not speaking in absolutes here) to get angry and wrathful from abuse a woman is more likely to get depressed and passive.

I've notices something about internet abusive mic spam, how similar it is to this:


Hmm correlation between verbal abuse and negative reinforcement as a motivator?