Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid 4
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
Recommended Videos
I am into the story line, that shouldn't however suggest, that I'll suck up all the juices leaking from the bloated game. Here's an example from the game: S.O.P (the system of nanomachines that effectively monitor the physical / mental well being of every soldier.) I understand what SOP is in a nutshell, but the game decides to spend 10 minutes filling me in with a bunch of pseudoscience nonsense about the system. I don't care, that what the processing speed is, I don't care what neurons it suppresses, all I need to know are mini robots in the blood control soldiers thats it. That is just unnecessary exposition, it doesn't make the game more believable for me. Hell it's a work of fiction, I understand that it isn't real, the game doesn't need to fill me up with some bs explanation so that I'll accept it.TerraMGP said:
The actual storyline is moderately interesting, they just tack so much extra crap to it, that makes it feel so damn heavy, things constantly get explained that have no reason to, it's just cluttered, and it gets so complex that the only way they can get all the details out are too having drawn out cutscenes that just ramble on about all the background of the actual story. MGS gives everything away, there are no mysteries or shrouded myths, because the game addresses everything, and beats you over the head with pointless exposition.
TerraMGP said:
lol@ the first part but anyway.
Cutscenes aren't BAD when used properly but Metal Gear 4 uses them as a way to string the game together instead of balancing them at all. Your running along and then bam cutscene, and not just a quick one but a LONG ONE and sometimes they serve no point. Some cutscenes don't even need to be cutscenes, the dialogue could have just been included in the action or in part of the game but no. They want to stop the game play, remove you and go back to story telling which in all accounts is a good story but it's kinda like taking a really good book then adding another 15 chapters that are only there to REMIND you of previous chapters in case you had forgot them. The problem i have with cutscenes in MG4 is they are very intrusive at times, they completely take away the game aspect and turn it into a an interactive story book which I would totally be fine with if the game was called METAL GEAR FOUR: INTERACTIVE STORY SPY ADVENTURE BOOK.
The "Extra crap" as you call it is the detail that makes it so interesting. It feels alot more like playing a tabletop that way, or reading a book. Thats what I don't get about people why all this extra data is not lifted up as one of the high points of the game. Its like back when the original "Star wars guide to ____" books came out and you got to read up on details about all the diffrent droids/ships/ext.
Also Mister Moran, I mean no disrespect its just, well to be frank everything seemed kinda forced so far, like rushing though all the old jokes instead of starting fresh.
Also Mister Moran, I mean no disrespect its just, well to be frank everything seemed kinda forced so far, like rushing though all the old jokes instead of starting fresh.
Exactly. Like in the first game when Otacon decides to go in to a long speech about his nickname, or you learn Sniper Wolfs entire backstory just in time for her to die. It really adds nothing to the game or the story, it's just inane details.Groovewood said:
You actually think I care? This is just like SSBB, sony fanboys are leaping into the flames to defend themselves against... well as far as I am concerned, the truth. I am a Microsoft fanboy, and frankly I am flattered that Yahtzee thinks Microsoft is sadistic enough to have a built in obsoleteness filter. I took his review of Halo3 with a 20 pound grain of salt because he never cuts anyone, especially popular games, a break; besides, halo is much like MGS in that if you havent seen the backstory you won't like it.
Welcome to analogy time children. If games can be brilliant but afflicted with a crippling flaw so bad that it whites-out all the good parts of it and leaves you solely focussed upon the aforementioned weakness, then Zero Punctuation is directly comparable.
It doesn't matter how gut-wrenchingly funny it is (and it is), nor how accurate the reviews are (and they are), all you are left with is a feeling of spleen-exploding annoyance at the commercials that have been welded on to the end.
A piece written by Yahtzee, no matter how tangential it is, is witty and in keeping with the reason we're here. A commercial for the rest of this website is tenuous, but not overly cringesome because you're the hosts.
This has got beyond ridiculous. 7 minutes of Yahtzee (lovely), oh. Sorry. That's 4 minutes of Yahtzee and 3 minutes of completely inconsequential toss.
To paraphrase Bill Hicks, "if you're in advertising, kill yourself. No joke. Quit putting a god damn dollar sign on every fucking thing on this planet!"
Thank you.
It doesn't matter how gut-wrenchingly funny it is (and it is), nor how accurate the reviews are (and they are), all you are left with is a feeling of spleen-exploding annoyance at the commercials that have been welded on to the end.
A piece written by Yahtzee, no matter how tangential it is, is witty and in keeping with the reason we're here. A commercial for the rest of this website is tenuous, but not overly cringesome because you're the hosts.
This has got beyond ridiculous. 7 minutes of Yahtzee (lovely), oh. Sorry. That's 4 minutes of Yahtzee and 3 minutes of completely inconsequential toss.
To paraphrase Bill Hicks, "if you're in advertising, kill yourself. No joke. Quit putting a god damn dollar sign on every fucking thing on this planet!"
Thank you.
I think those details added ALOT ot the game. I think more games should add in that kind of thing. Its much more interesting when the good guys and bad guys feel human as opposed to when they just seem like, well MGS3 is a good example. I WANTED to hear long backstories about them, I wanted to know what the hell was up with the pain or what the fear did that made him the way he is... those would have been NICE to know. It would have added alot to the setting and the story as a whole. Its that content that is just the most interesting and adds the rich detail that makes the game worth playing.
As for you Bibbles I am out. Frankly I think people like you are the reason the world is in the state it is in. So go ahead and act like a jerk, and when some selfish moron gets us all killed remember your just like him.
As for you Bibbles I am out. Frankly I think people like you are the reason the world is in the state it is in. So go ahead and act like a jerk, and when some selfish moron gets us all killed remember your just like him.
TerraMGP said:
Sorry but you can't call some one an asshole then say "No Disrespect". My series is my series and "Fans" like you obviously don't know a lot about it you don't even understand the reasons for not restarting fresh. For every one of you there would have been ten people crying that I did things differently so rather then start fresh I would rather transition from the old style to the new style but this isn't the place to start a new topic so keep to the point at hand.
The MG4 doesn't FEEL like a MG game. Hows that? If it's suppose to be your little story book then fine ignore everything I said but I bought it buying "Metal Gear Four" not "Metal Gear: The Personal Pop up Book Experience".
You think I am a jerk because our views are different, if you were looking at this with the perspective of someone who is by far and large not concerned then you would see the hilarity of the situation. But thank you for the mood booster.TerraMGP said:
Well, using MGS4 as an example, there are several good reasons why having a small game:cut scene ratio in a video game is not recommendable. Like I said, you paid good money for the game, so you're bound to watch the cutscenes first time around. And in MGS4's case, that works to its disadvantage as they are:TerraMGP said:
(a) usually very long. Which adds greatly to the story, yes, but detracts enormously from the game and makes the players feel increasingly less involved with the story - you become something of an outsider to it, and as a result gradually start to care less. Luckily, Kojima added interactive moments in case you're falling asleep. But, they also grow tiresome/old after a while (and, waiting 10-20 minutes to rapidly press X for a single flashback in the entire scene is not that great). By the way, even patient people without ADD might object to 23 minutes of WAITING (or playing CAMERA (WO)MAN if you prefer) before they can dig into the GAME they just bought.
The Elf in Warcraft 2 said it best I think: "Even the Elder Races get tired of waiting".
(b) feature such cool moves/acrobatics that Snake's in-game moves begin to feel tame by comparison. You get to see all these awesome stunts, but don't get to do them for yourself. A big disappointment for me, since I love games a la Devil may Cry which allow just that. Also, the locales depicted in the cut scenes are usually so brilliant that I can't help myself but wonder how great it would have been if you could actually play in them. Maybe Kojima wanted you to feel that Snake wasn't the absolute badass in the game anymore, but to me it feels like a missed opportunity.
(c) are utterly embarassing on multiple occasions. There are multiple scenes in there which are okay for a kid's game, but for a mature audience? No no no no. I can't go into details here as I don't want to spoil the game for others, but there are multiple sequences in there where you can't help but think what Kojima was smoking while putting them in a game for, ahem, **18+** gamers.
I sat through all the cutscenes and Codec conversations (which are surprisingly limited this time around) and after watching them all, I agree with Yahtzee that MGS4 really needed some trimming/editing there. Most of them were awesome and all, but I can't help but feel that some professional "house cleaning" would have greatly increased the experience for the average gamer and even the average MGS fan.
This is the main difference of opinions, I think. I personally don't think details like this make a character seem more human. If a character has a backstory and a motivation, they can be very lifelike in my book. You don't need to know everything about them to know who they are and what drives them.TerraMGP said:
Guys - just because you or someone else finds a game enjoyable doesn't mean that it's e.g. well written. Distinguish between subjective FEELINGS, as in "I like the game", and objective judgment like "the game is badly written". These two things are not mutually exclusive.
Don't give me any of the "everything is subjective" crap that is ever so popular nowadays because clearly it ISN'T. Believe it or not but there are some universal RULES to writing and anybody who attacks you with a wall of text without having the stylistic prowess (like e.g. Thomas Mann) to make it worthwhile commits a writer's primary sin.
Let me give you an analogy. "Trash films" (like low-budget horrors) aren't good films, by ANY standards - no, not even in "their genre" because this particular genre was invented only so that people don't feel bad about liking bad movies.
Nobody will ever be able to convince you to "not like" a game because this is emotional, highly subjective territory. You can, however, claim that some aspect of any given game is OBJECTIVELY bad by providing solid arguments (which Yahtzee always does to a certain extent) but that won't change a single thing about this whole situation. You are NOT automatically a moron for liking something deemed bad and it isn't a personal attack against you... Just live with it but don't try to roll out nonsensical fanboy arguments that are sent on a completely different non-factual wavelength - just don't be blinded by your emotions so much as to not see any flaws in your object of adoration. ;-)
P.S. It's funny - I had a similar discussion about ctf_2fort (Team Fortress 2) with a certain guy. I gave many quite solid arguments why the map is objectively bad from a map-design perspective and he only refuted with things like "but I like it", "it's fun to play it", "it is popular" and so forth. So what? Again, all these statements aren't mutually exclusive - in fact they don't even overlap in any way.
Don't give me any of the "everything is subjective" crap that is ever so popular nowadays because clearly it ISN'T. Believe it or not but there are some universal RULES to writing and anybody who attacks you with a wall of text without having the stylistic prowess (like e.g. Thomas Mann) to make it worthwhile commits a writer's primary sin.
Let me give you an analogy. "Trash films" (like low-budget horrors) aren't good films, by ANY standards - no, not even in "their genre" because this particular genre was invented only so that people don't feel bad about liking bad movies.
Nobody will ever be able to convince you to "not like" a game because this is emotional, highly subjective territory. You can, however, claim that some aspect of any given game is OBJECTIVELY bad by providing solid arguments (which Yahtzee always does to a certain extent) but that won't change a single thing about this whole situation. You are NOT automatically a moron for liking something deemed bad and it isn't a personal attack against you... Just live with it but don't try to roll out nonsensical fanboy arguments that are sent on a completely different non-factual wavelength - just don't be blinded by your emotions so much as to not see any flaws in your object of adoration. ;-)
P.S. It's funny - I had a similar discussion about ctf_2fort (Team Fortress 2) with a certain guy. I gave many quite solid arguments why the map is objectively bad from a map-design perspective and he only refuted with things like "but I like it", "it's fun to play it", "it is popular" and so forth. So what? Again, all these statements aren't mutually exclusive - in fact they don't even overlap in any way.
Remember children, when he points out genuine flaws and gives an honest review of what he liked and didn't like in a game YOU don't like, it's genuine reporting.
When he points out genuine flaws and gives an honest review of what he liked and didn't like in a game YOU like, it's selling out.
As TerraMGP has more than illustrated for us
When he points out genuine flaws and gives an honest review of what he liked and didn't like in a game YOU like, it's selling out.
As TerraMGP has more than illustrated for us
But thats not what it was supposed to be, it never was. This is Hideos last game of the series, it was going to be, and was, the thing that tied up all the loose ends. The man does not make games for people who don't get what hes doing, and still won't then I'm sorry you paid money for a game that anyone familiar with Hideos work could have told you was going to be a book more than anything. Just look at ZOE for crying out loud.
And yes I fully realize some fans would be upset, but you won't draw in any new fans if your not funny, and your not anymore. I was hoping to use a bit of diplomacy and make you think, but as you said not something to discuss here.
And yes I fully realize some fans would be upset, but you won't draw in any new fans if your not funny, and your not anymore. I was hoping to use a bit of diplomacy and make you think, but as you said not something to discuss here.
The first review I watched was Super Mario Galaxy and the entire tone of the article is very different. With reviews like SMG, Guitar Hero 3, Mass Effect, etc, he pointed out the obvious flaws in the games that mainstream critics left out, but still gave them their due at the end. However, the reviews lately have been falling into a definete pattern
JRPGs Suck
Dialogue Bad
Lots of Guns/Combat Good
Yahtzee has said many times he is a "Games are Art" guy yet almost every game that tries to trancend the genre and be something more (Mass Effect, The Witcher, Assassin's Creed) he bitches about them getting in the way of the player.
It seems that ZP has hit the crossroad every form of entertainment hits when it becomes mainstream, some people find that its lost what it got it there in the first place. Whatever, I'm sure The Escapist is paying you handsomely (if not you're getting screwed based on the amount of ads) and congratulations for that. I'll still tune in every Wednesday, but not with the same joy I used to.
JRPGs Suck
Dialogue Bad
Lots of Guns/Combat Good
Yahtzee has said many times he is a "Games are Art" guy yet almost every game that tries to trancend the genre and be something more (Mass Effect, The Witcher, Assassin's Creed) he bitches about them getting in the way of the player.
It seems that ZP has hit the crossroad every form of entertainment hits when it becomes mainstream, some people find that its lost what it got it there in the first place. Whatever, I'm sure The Escapist is paying you handsomely (if not you're getting screwed based on the amount of ads) and congratulations for that. I'll still tune in every Wednesday, but not with the same joy I used to.
Woah woah woah. This is where you need to take a moment and breathe. Nothing Bibbles there said was even remotely as offensive, and that was a little uncalled for. He supports something he loves, you support something you love, can you not see the parallel here? Methinks things are being taken a tad too personally ma'am.TerraMGP said: