4 reasons why I thought Metal Gear Solid 4's story sucked...
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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
You make an excellent parallel here, and I appreciate that.
The fatal flaw in your assessment is that Hideo Kojima does have that depth, he does touch on ideas and concepts that Stan Lee would shy away from, and he does produce characters that are more then two-sided. Not all of them, mind you. And not all of his ideas hold much water, either.
What he lacks is the ability to produce them in a way that is decidedly precise, or greatly believable. The debate is over if this is his strength or weakness.
My opinion is that it is a strength in heart, but a weakness in execution. Translation aside (the man speaks poor English, lets be honest), he writes scripts like storyboards. Then does not cut them down. Or it seems that he does, anyway--I'd be sorta afraid to see what the really cut from the games.
I'm sure you agree with me now, so we can all go home and enjoy our victory on the internets.
'Cause these debates always prove fruitful.
I don't know... I kind of have issues with this.Jumplion said:
1) The Metal Gear plot is not confusing or complex. It's not. Maybe it is compared to some games where the plot is "Kill everyone", but that doesn't make it complex. I would be hard-pressed to name a decent book that had a less complex plotline.
2) The underlying messages about horrors of war, humanity being overcome by its technological advancements, and the nature of free will are in no way original on any media platform. Ever.
3) The delivery is so laughably bad that it actively hurts what good plotline there is. What was that thing Naomi said at the beginning? Something like, "If you won't be a prisoner to fate, then rise up and embrace your destiny." Am I the only one who caught that those are THE SAME THING? Who proofreads this stuff?
4) The biggest problem with MGS being hailed as "games as art" is that there isn't really all that much game there. The sneaking is fine, but really, you've basically got a shooter where you can also climb on stuff and the bad guys are way less perceptive than other games. That's the whole game. There's nothing innovative here by this fourth installment, which is a shame because innovative is kind of what Metal Gear was known for. Add in that this somewhat generic 7 hour game is dressed up in 10 hours of cutscenes, most of which are bad cutscenes, and you can kind of see the disappointment some people had.
I guess, in the end, the MGS series is like the opposite of Star Trek movies. The odd ones don't suck.
- J
You're a smart man j-e-f-f-e-r-s, I've got to respect that.j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
But onwards, the MGS storyline while being completely insane is without a doubt memorable. Wether that's a good ro bad thing is debatable by the persons opinion.
I personally think that Hideo Kojima is a Mad Genius, a fucking lunatic, yet the best god damn lunatic we have. I personally love the storylines in MGS and if anyone comes up and goes around saying "MGS has bad storyline and I'll tell you why!" is not stating facts and is just stating opinions, which is fine.
I've seen people (unfortunately on this forum, not you Doctorpus you're fine) stating their "facts" that the MGS storyline is bad writing when all they were doing was trying to enforce Yahtzee's opinion as fact (it was on the ZP:MGS4 review, if you're morbidly curious start at around page 20).
So you're right to assume that Hideo is the Stan Lee of gaming, the man has his flaws, but he has his fans that are loyal to him and love the way he tells us stories.
Also, I never really understood some of the complaints about MGS. I don't remember Snake repeating what everyone else said (though that could be in the previous ones) but I still love the game for its own merits.
I thought he (technically) has no gender, hence why he doesn't get all hot and bothered around women. Also, I don't think any of them wanted to do anything with snake since he's pretty much going to die in half a year.Bulletinmybrain said:
Technically no he doesn't because this new one will uproot the old and take him back to normalish. He won't die for awhile though thats a fact.Indigo_Dingo said:
1. I agree that the MGS storylines arn't complex, but I was going by waht everyone else was complaining about. I honestly had no problem with the story.tiredinnuendo said:
2. I suppose you are right, but it's definately "different" than most other "horrors of war" type games.
3. I thought the delivery of the games were great. You see, this is what I bumped into in the ZP:MGS4 thread, there were people who were saying "The game delivers the story so badly!" WEll, in YOUR opinion, I honestly loved how the story was told; through snake's eyes. It's his final battle, who better to tell it than the man who experienced it? But that could be different in the other games since I've only played the 4th one. And I'd suspect that the "If you won't be a prisoner to fate, then rise up and embrace your destiny." is sortof a, for lack of better word, oxymoron. Or if not that, they would be two different people. Prisinor of fate just lets fate happen to him, embracing your destiny lets you control it.
Of course, now I'm just making excuses for Kojima's writing.
4. I think the game was just as innovative as the previous ones (again, basically speculation because I havn't played the previous games before) because now you're sneaking in battle itself. Before you'd basically just try not to get spotted, but now you have to try and not get spotted with things happening all around you. THat may not sound like much, but I bet it changed the way some old MGS fans played
Though, I guess this is just my thinking, as me not playing the previous games makes my opinion/statement/whatever almost useless. But yeah, just wanted to put that in.
Understand the ending of MGS2, and then, my son, may you say that the plot is simple and not confusing.Jumplion said:
1) Hm... I haven't read it, so I can't judge. Does the plot have more than two points? (kidding, kidding)Indigo_Dingo said:
2) My statement was in direct response to Jump, who said "original" five times in his post. It's *not*.
3) Protip: Fate and destiny are both defined as "the things that will happen to and through a person". Embracing one's destiny is the exact same thing as letting fate happen. Remember: "Letting" fate happen doesn't mean sitting around doing nothing. That's often going against it. Furthermore, that is one line I noted. There are tons of others. The fact is that this story has an okay plot, but is delivered badly. The writing is bad and the dialogue is "plot dump". Plot dump is bad writing, and that's not an opinion, that's a fact of writing technique. When I say, "The delivery is bad," I don't mean that telling it as Snake is bad, I mean that giving us a Powerpoint presentation about SOP or the Patriots every time you introduce another character is a bad means to communicate the plot to the player.
4) I thought I was clear enough, but as you wish, I'll detail my point. Metal Gear was revolutionary. It was one of the first games where killing people was a bad idea. Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake taxed the NES to its limits, and had the best story ever in a video game up to that point. Metal Gear Solid gave us our first glimpse of a real interactive movie. We're not going to talk about MGS2. MGS3 reeled in the stupid from MGS2, but gave us the camo system and had it actively impact your stealth. MGS4.... is a shooter where you can crawl and climb and the enemies are less perceptive than other shooters. There is camo, but it's done for you. There is stealth, but the tranq gun, the Mark 2, and the ability to buy more ammo any time you want make the whole game too easy. The only arguably new thing was the psyche meter, and I found that you could almost entirely ignore that if you were in any way passable at playing the game.
- J
Yeah, if you missed the first MGS, you really missed out.
MGS2 wasn't terrible, it just wasn't good. Here's the breakdown, ready?
MGS: You play Snake and raid a facility. The plot dumping isn't opressively overbearing and the plot is, if somewhat standard, very passable. All the characters are at least decent if not grand, your character is grizzled enough to feel tough but still someone you can relate to.... it was just grand.
MGS2: The plot is presented in plot dumps that keep contradicting themselves. "IT WAS THE PATRIOTS!" was the big reveal a bajillion times. The enemies were stupid (see: Vamp). Raiden and Rose felt like Brand X Snake and Meryl, but suckier. Almost like a way to gratify the fans who wanted Snake and Meryl together without actually having to do it. The whole thing was a big Thirty Xanatos Pileup.
See the difference? MGS2 might have been a better game if it had been called something else, but as a followup to MGS, it disappointed. This is made worse by MGS3 being so much better, and then the huge backslide they did for MGS4.
- J
MGS2 wasn't terrible, it just wasn't good. Here's the breakdown, ready?
MGS: You play Snake and raid a facility. The plot dumping isn't opressively overbearing and the plot is, if somewhat standard, very passable. All the characters are at least decent if not grand, your character is grizzled enough to feel tough but still someone you can relate to.... it was just grand.
MGS2: The plot is presented in plot dumps that keep contradicting themselves. "IT WAS THE PATRIOTS!" was the big reveal a bajillion times. The enemies were stupid (see: Vamp). Raiden and Rose felt like Brand X Snake and Meryl, but suckier. Almost like a way to gratify the fans who wanted Snake and Meryl together without actually having to do it. The whole thing was a big Thirty Xanatos Pileup.
See the difference? MGS2 might have been a better game if it had been called something else, but as a followup to MGS, it disappointed. This is made worse by MGS3 being so much better, and then the huge backslide they did for MGS4.
- J
"Kind of like playing through Wolfenstein 3d only to find once you've killed Hitler you have to listen to him tell you about how he 'only wanted to be loved'"
Best quote I think I have ever heard in my life, I dont think I could find fault in anything you said simply for that. But, since the sarcasm is right up my alley, I think the whole thing was pretty funny, I loved metal gear solid 1 and 3, refuse to play 2 or 4 because the sotry goes haywire
Best quote I think I have ever heard in my life, I dont think I could find fault in anything you said simply for that. But, since the sarcasm is right up my alley, I think the whole thing was pretty funny, I loved metal gear solid 1 and 3, refuse to play 2 or 4 because the sotry goes haywire
How would you know if the story goes haywire if you never play them?meone007 said:
PAY ATTENTION, and the story makes perfect sense.