A point of contraversy (part 1) - Buying a game used is as bad as pirating?

[DoctorFrankenStein]

Well, the whole logic fails hard. That would be my first point.
Same as selling/buying in a second hand shop, a used car, a used house (not building one your self), do you see any other industry QQ about the second hand market? I don't think so.

Also, buying used games does NOT hurt the gaming industry. Can you please explain me how it hurts? One of the many bad arguments is that the company has to "waste extra money for keeping servers". Well, look at the other side. If I sell my game, I stop playing. Someone other buys the game and starts playing. So that's (X-1)+1, which is still X. The number of players didn't change. They have no additional costs for "that extra players".

Also, the most obvious solution to this problem is really simple. Developers should stop making bad games and start making games that are worth keeping even if you stopped playing the game.
I still have all Zelda games and I wouldn't sell them for all the money on the world. Why you ask? Because the games are so damn good that I want to keep them. Same is for CoD 2, MoHAA and several other old school games which are worth keeping. But why should someone keep a game like CoD BO? Or any other shooter of today? Non of them are worth the space in my home.

If developers start making good games, people will be less likely to sell them, especially after just 3 days. They over hyped a game, make it look godly, but the game is shit and there is no demo to test the game out. And even if there is a demo, the demo is awful and they say the game has MUCH MORE, even though it does NOT. So yeah, people buying those games deserve a full money refund, but since that's not possible, they sell their used games.


tl.dr.

1. Every industry in the world has a second hand market. Why is the gaming industry the only one which is crying and making a big deal about it?
2. The whole logic is flawed. The number of gamers is still the same. The developers don't have any additional costs for those used copies. People who buy a used game most likely wouldn't buy a new game.
3. The developer should start fixing the problem on their side. Once the game is worth keeping, the number of resold games would fall drastically. Only then they can think about adding a coupon for multiplayer and request a payment if you don't have it.

Sasuke here has the right idea. The only thing fueling this 'controversy' is greed. Greed on the part of the publishers who want a cut of the second-hand market, and greed on part of companies like Gamestop that offer pennies for people's used games and then sell them at almost full price.
Second-hand markets provide things for people who couldn't afford them otherwise. And I would venture to say; also open up people to try new things simply because they are a good deal.
Personally I think Gamestop is a complete rip-off. If I had games I wanted to part with I'd sell them to another individual directly, not to a store. I'd use Ebay or Amazon. I think that with the economy the way it is in the USA right now, it's more important to support individuals and small businesses then 'pawnshops' like Gamestop.
I don't like this new trend of businesses trying to double-dip on profits and keep people from sharing and trading. This why I will not be getting a Kindle or any of that other E-reader garbage either. I like to buy a book, own it, share it, gift it, or maybe even donate it to the local library when I'm done.
I will not buy Rage. Nor will I buy any other game that with-holds content in any similar way.

 

[Sethzard]

Personally I think the way rage is going about me is pretty sensible, blocking off a part of the game makes sense, it's the same with EA's project 10 dollar, it makes sure that some money will often get back to the devs. I'll be honest, I wouldn't mind if they effectively turned their pre-owned games into frisbees unless a code was typed in, from a financial standpoint it makes sense, and it would ensure that the devs got a reasonable amount of money, it would also reduce the markup that game shops could charge.

I hate that all modern DRM is just a punishment against those without good internet. Seriously, why can't the developers just have a place in the game where you can enter your code and unlock it (like an old-fashioned cheat). Nope if you have no internet there's no point in buying it new, because you're not getting the incentive anyway. That's my problem.

Seriously, would a in-game entry option be so bad?

I agree, I think that DRM is fucking stupid, I prefer things like project 10 dollar I.E. things which you get for buying the game, as pirates can get past any DRM within a couple of days with no problem.

 

[EcoHulk]

I miss buying a game and knowing, "I'm done, I have the game." Now you have to wait for DLC of stuff that should already be in the game, get past copyrights, connect to the internet to verify your purchase.

Now I could handle all that, but now they are removing parts of the game to make people who don't pay $60 for a 6 hours game and instead buy used. If you need a new copy to access content, then what happens once after say, a few months and they don't make any new copies. I'm all for good copy protection, but this is just mean.

 

[KAPTAINmORGANnWo4life]

I love how some people are so used to getting fucked, they're letting the developers choose the positions now. This is the only medium where it's feasible to sell a product in an incomplete state, or block-off content in the final product, and it's no longer being opposed.

If used games are so bad, what about if you were to buy a game off of a friend? Or purchasing a copy off of EBay? Should we stop sharing games with each other because developers aren't being paid at a 1:1 ratio of people to games?

Once someone has bought a game, or anything for that matter, they're the legal owner of that item. Not the copyright, not the trademark, not the rights to reproduce that product, that specific item. The game disc you bought is no longer Publisher X's property, and is no longer under Retailer Y's inventory, but is your property. You are allowed to buy or sell your property through legal avenues, and if you choose to sell your game for store currency, there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[sibrenfetter]

Then you're an idiot. No used books are not the same, no it's not a good analogy, no you are wrong.

If you say this but you cannot give any argument why then it is you who is the idiot. Why is this person wrong? Why should game developers receive money for resells whereas there is no other product making such a claim? Books are an excellent example, by the way as they are quite comparable in many ways.

 

[mirasiel]

Then you're an idiot. No used books are not the same, no it's not a good analogy, no you are wrong.

Also socially acceptable things can be fucking retarded.

Ok, how are games inherently different from any other good upon the face of the earth??

And as such deserving of special treatment from the rest of everything else, to the point where their specialness trumps consumers rights and law in most western nations?

 

[krazykidd]

Help me understand this:

The publisher of the game has sold X copies to Retailer Y for price Z. Retailer Y sells the games, and gets a certain amount of those traded back because they didn't like it or whatever. After that, they prop it up in the used games section for resale at a lesser price.

Retailer Y will get a little more money out of the purchase because they don't have to throw out a game. But the amount of X copies sold, and with that the Z Price, isn't changed is it? It's not that with every single purchase a little of that money has to be put into an envelope and sent to the publisher, right? So how does selling used games hurt the publisher like piracy does?

This is not me trolling or whatever, I'm just curious if my train of logic works or not.

THIS. DEAR GOD, THIS.

Once the game is on the store shelves, the devs and pubs have their moolah. The only reason used games piss developers off is because they don't get EVEN MOAR monies unless the distributor sells out and has to buy more. They see money that second hand games places are making and want it. Plain and simple.

Piracy, however, is just as immoral as the greed of some devs.

This , plus piracy is illegal , PAYING for a used game is NOT, i have a question , and i will make a thread about this . How many people buy a newly released game used ? You know when a game comes out for 59 $ or 69$ and the used copy is 54$ or 64 $ ? I'm willing to bet not alot of people do this. My guess is people ( for the most part anyways ) buy a game used that is under 20$.

 

[mirasiel]

Help me understand this:

The publisher of the game has sold X copies to Retailer Y for price Z. Retailer Y sells the games, and gets a certain amount of those traded back because they didn't like it or whatever. After that, they prop it up in the used games section for resale at a lesser price.

Retailer Y will get a little more money out of the purchase because they don't have to throw out a game. But the amount of X copies sold, and with that the Z Price, isn't changed is it? It's not that with every single purchase a little of that money has to be put into an envelope and sent to the publisher, right? So how does selling used games hurt the publisher like piracy does?

This is not me trolling or whatever, I'm just curious if my train of logic works or not.

THIS. DEAR GOD, THIS.

Once the game is on the store shelves, the devs and pubs have their moolah. The only reason used games piss developers off is because they don't get EVEN MOAR monies unless the distributor sells out and has to buy more. They see money that second hand games places are making and want it. Plain and simple.

Piracy, however, is just as immoral as the greed of some devs.

This , plus piracy is illegal , PAYING for a used game is NOT, i have a question , and i will make a thread about this . How many people buy a newly released game used ? You know when a game comes out for 59 $ or 69$ and the used copy is 54$ or 64 $ ? I'm willing to bet not alot of people do this. My guess is people ( for the most part anyways ) buy a game used that is under 20$.

Or how many wait until it gets price reduced new in a sale offer?


Are you still stealing when you buy 2 new games that are on a bogof offer? hell you didnt even pay for one of them!!!!123!!

 

[WaruTaru]

I love how some people are so used to getting fucked, they're letting the developers choose the positions now. This is the only medium where it's feasible to sell a product in an incomplete state, or block-off content in the final product, and it's no longer being opposed.

If used games are so bad, what about if you were to buy a game off of a friend? Or purchasing a copy off of EBay? Should we stop sharing games with each other because developers aren't being paid at a 1:1 ratio of people to games?

Once someone has bought a game, or anything for that matter, they're the legal owner of that item. Not the copyright, not the trademark, not the rights to reproduce that product, that specific item. The game disc you bought is no longer Publisher X's property, and is no longer under Retailer Y's inventory, but is your property. You are allowed to buy or sell your property through legal avenues, and if you choose to sell your game for store currency, there is nothing wrong with that.

Then tell me why is it illegal to share games and music. For free. Its my game/music. If I choose to share it with the world, its my right to do so, no? Moreover I am not even profiting from it. What is wrong with that scenario?

 

[Nobby]

snip

Perhaps rather than insulting me you should provide examples of just how used books are different to used games.

If I buy a used book I expect its condition to probably be worse than that of a new copy as long as it is readable. I expect the same from a used game.

I expect all the content to be there. I expect the same from a used game.

You didn't actually provide any reasons as to why my opinion was wrong. Next time maybe you should try not being an asshole and write a response.

 

[debossman21]

piracy happens when u did not pay for it. by paying for it, u have not commited piracy. end of story.

 

[BelfastSpartan]

I see why they do it and understand why they want to do it but I still think it's complete horseshit.

As said above a retailer buys X copies off the dev/producers or whatever so they have their big lump sum straight up. Now they want more money off people who want to buy it 2nd hand. On top of them already charging for DLC that in some cases is already on the disc, you a merely paying for access to that content you have already paid for!

(can't remember off the top of my head but I'm near certain CoD has maps on their discs that aren't accessible until they decide to release it to the public as DLC but it's merely just a code that activates it on the disc)

I don't see how this is any different to any product ever produced that is bought 2nd hand. People buy cars new, money goes to ford or whatever, buy it 2nd hand a few years later and it goes to the dealer, does ford then come in and say oh you bought that 2nd hand you can only have 3 wheels unless you buy the 4th one off us? No

They do however make money back when you 'fix' the car and buy replacment parts through ford, same as paying for DLC....this I have no problem with. I'd happily buy new maps or whatever to extend my games but to simply say you bought it 2nd hand and didn't give us moeny so you can't fully play our game is complete horseshit and I'll keep my money! Probably won't affect the developer but I couldn't really give a toss.

Is my way of thinking right or am I missing something here?

 

[mirasiel]

Then tell me why is it illegal to share games and music. For free. Its my game/music. If I choose to share it with the world, its my right to do so, no? Moreover I am not even profiting from it. What is wrong with that scenario?

I dont think it is, if I give you my copy of Ricky Martin - Ricky Martin (I may be a bad friend) and say 'nah, its cool bro, you can keep it' that (I think) is legal

Now if I rip it to MP3 format and upload it on the internet for torrenting (I may be a horrible human being) then we are in a totally different legal situation.

But copyright law is so anti-consumer rights its kind of insane.

 

[sibrenfetter]

Is my way of thinking right or am I missing something here?

You dear sir/madam are absolutely correct, it is that simple.

 

[Anah'ya]

Do you buy a book for any other reason than the story contained within the pages? So by the same logic you presented above a used book is identical to a new one. Sure the pages may rip over time and the jacket might get lost but the words within will still be the same. Heck an even closer example could be made about used DvDs. The difference between books/DVDs and games is you simply don't hear the book or dvd industry crying like spoiled children about how buying and selling goods has worked for hundreds upon hundred of years.

To you personally the game may just be about the data. However, to some people, the game is an overall package. Some people like having the original case and book. Some people don't care how readable the disc may be they still do not want any scratches on their discs. These are things that do get often lost or ripped or scratched on used games. This does decrease how desirable a game is to a large number of people. Even though it may not change how you feel about the over all product it doesn't change the fact that a game that is just a lightly scratched disc in some generic case with no book or box art is viewed much differently than a new copy by many.

As I said previously this campaign against used games is nothing more than a smear campaign put forth by greedy publishers. They get their money for the game when they sell the new copies to Gamestop or Walmart or whoever buys it from them originally. They are no more entitled to further profits than any other maker and seller of goods is past the initial purchase. Games are not special. Let me repeat that. Games are NOT special. They are a good that is bought and sold, nothing more, and as such deserve to be treated just like every other product that is bought and sold.

You cannot use the book vs. game argument. I do not quite understand how you can compare a book, which is a physical object, with data. Words on a page are not data contained in a digital manner. A page can burn, a well backed up data storage will remain as is.

All hail digital distribution.

I'll touch upon the whole "I like the whole package thing" in a moment, but before we go anywhere else I want to try and understand something here. A campaign against used games is a campaign led by greed publishers, and games are not special.

No. Games are special. They are the only digital entertainment of their type that is sold used. A game is not a movie, and a game is not a book. A game is a piece of software, and as is should be treated like any other software out there. Do you see stores selling used copies of Microsoft Office? Photoshop? Windows Server 2008? Used copy of Nero? Maybe a used copy of a SAP installation? Hell, if anyone tried to sell a used copy of the software I support, our legal department would tear them a new one.

So. Do you? No?

Thought so.

Because data does not lose its value over time, chipping away from the game in order to force a "used" buyer to shell out a few extra dollars, is perfectly fair and should be encouraged. While you may call this "greedy" I call this "making a profit and ensuring future employment for people."

And now lets move on to the "But I want the whole package" argument.

I am a collector. The only physical copies that I purchase are collectors editions. Artbooks, figurines, cards, dice--- you name it. If a game comes in a shiny box and has something I can put on a shelf, then this is what I get.

I also buy used.

Though unlike other people I do not buy used for the game. I walk into GameStop or Game once a week (whenever possible) and grab the shiny collectors boxes of games that I might have missed years ago, or games that I already have in a digital copy but haven't had the chance to get a collectors edition of. They might lack the extras, and I couldn't give a toss over the actual game disc since I already own it anyway, but the shiny metal casing is too hard to resists.

So. Yeah. Games are definitely all about the 0s and 1s on the disc for me.

 

[Paularius]

A few years ago you used to be able to rent the games for 3 days, ususally from video stores.
Now days devs/pubs just seem to be overly self intitled with what they think they should be owed and are having a hissy fit over it.

If i buy a loaf of bread and my friend comes over and i make him a sandwich does that mean he's robbing profits from baker? No it does not.
There are so many differnt examples of this you could use. Most people use the car example so i thought i'd use a new one.
Games do not get some special exeption from this rule no matter how much the devs wish they deserve it.

 

[mirasiel]

A few years ago you used to be able to rent the games for 3 days, ususally from video stores.

You still can, which is another oddity in this debate...I dont see devs/pubs bitching about the rental market....

Is it maybe because its not as massively profitable...hmmmmm


/edit in fact my local Blockbuster just started renting out their pre-owned games this week ...

 

[Xanthious]

I love how some people are so used to getting fucked, they're letting the developers choose the positions now. This is the only medium where it's feasible to sell a product in an incomplete state, or block-off content in the final product, and it's no longer being opposed.

If used games are so bad, what about if you were to buy a game off of a friend? Or purchasing a copy off of EBay? Should we stop sharing games with each other because developers aren't being paid at a 1:1 ratio of people to games?

Once someone has bought a game, or anything for that matter, they're the legal owner of that item. Not the copyright, not the trademark, not the rights to reproduce that product, that specific item. The game disc you bought is no longer Publisher X's property, and is no longer under Retailer Y's inventory, but is your property. You are allowed to buy or sell your property through legal avenues, and if you choose to sell your game for store currency, there is nothing wrong with that.

I'd be very curious to know how many of these people coming out against used sales either work within the gaming industry or are going to school to do so. Every argument made by these sorts breaks down to nothing more than "Video games deserve special treatment that no other good in the history of goods being bought and sold has ever received just because we say they do". Games aren't special. They are property and once you (or Gamestop) buys it off the original owner it's their property to do with what they wish.

Honestly, Im so fucking sick of hearing the greedy whining of the developers, publishers, etc that comes from the gaming industry I refuse to support it unless I have no other choice. For all I care they could all end up in the unemployment line tomorrow and the video game industry could come crashing down and I wouldn't be able to cheer hard enough. Sure there are some out there doing it right but the vast majority do nothing more than treat gamers as criminals all while scheming to get every last penny of theirs they can.

***Two minutes later***

No. Games are special. They are the only digital entertainment of their type that is sold used. A game is not a movie, and a game is not a book. A game is a piece of software, and as is should be treated like any other software out there. Do you see stores selling used copies of Microsoft Office? Photoshop? Windows Server 2008? Used copy of Nero? Maybe a used copy of a SAP installation? Hell, if anyone tried to sell a used copy of the software I support, our legal department would tear them a new one.

Look what we have here kids. Someone working in the software industry (unless I totally missed my mark and the legal department comment misled me) trying to convince us used software sales are the devil and we are less than human because we would be so selfish as to not send the publishers an envelope full of money for our crimes against them every time we buy a used product. . . imagine that! I am shocked I say! Words cannot express the sheer disbelief I am feeling right now. My world has been torn asunder. Black is white, up is down, dogs and cats living together and such

 

[Fanfic_warper]

this issue has no doubt argued before and will continue to be done so, but so long as the option is around, people will get games for free if they can, or cheaper than a new price if they can and will resort to purchasing new if no other options are available or if you are that rare breed that thinks long term about your investment into the game and publishers and want to support them.

I'll admit, most of my games were bought new, but I sold some of them and got quite a few that are used and WAY cheaper than when they first came out.