I don't know his skin colour but your point is valid and yet another obvious twisted section of the bible.Spleeni said:
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If you want to find the Antichrist in the Bible, you have to bring him with you.Sensenmann said:
You can read Revelation cover-to-cover and you will never see "antichrist." The word "antichrist" only appears in John's Epistles, not John's Apocalypse(*).
To whit, every use of "antichrist" is presented below (New King James quotes):
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
1 John 4:3
And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
2 John 1:7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Note the use of "antichrists" as a plural. Note the description of any denier of Christ or any deceiver of Christians as an "antichrist."
Many people choose to read "antichrist" and "son of perdition" and Revelation's "beast" as all referring to the same singular individual. That's a very common approach, sure. But it's one that requires a particular -- well, I'm going to be charitable and call it a "hermeneutic."
Taken to extremes (in Left Behind books, History Channel "end times" specials, or Falwell's sermons), this crap is absolutely hilarious. With lots of elbow-grease and pretzel-logic, almost every passage of the Bible is marshalled into the the service of piss-crazy (and completely extra-biblical) prophecy. Every single reference to any liar, any non-Christian, any form of evil is thrown onto the Antichrist checklist. Why, the Antichrist is "the king of the south [http://garvanellison.blogspot.com/2008/11/call-to-prayer-resist-antichrist.html]" and "the king of the north [http://www.raptureready.com/featured/gillette/ac2.html]"!
-- Alex
__________
* - Traditionally, John the Evangelist and John of Patmos are the same John (who is also John the Apostle). Scholars point out that the texts are written quite differently, however: not just in style but in linguistic proficiency.
Okay how did my verses not prove anything? It wasn't quoting the bible against itself (at least from my view)jordan. said:
[jordan]Your verses proved nothing too.
Watch this.
"Whoever believes in me will have eternal life" - John 3
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" - John 6[jordan]
Again taking meaning from one verse and applying to another
Let me break romans 8:29 down. bit by bit
For those God foreknew(alright God is everywhere all knowing all powerful and not bound by time(ie He is both here and 20 years from now at the same time) So He knows those that will choose to serve Him) He also predestined (okay since He foreknew who would be saved it is fair to say that He pre-destined them)( In the way that if I knew Barry Bonds was going to hit 73 home runs I would as owner of the giant sign him to a contract) To me that is what this idea of predestination is That God KNOWS who will serve Him and as such lays out their life so they come to Christ)
So in a way we agree ! All i'm saying is God did not just say I want you to be saved and not you. He knows who will accept him and as such leads them in His will
I have no issue with God being in complete control. But man does have the choice to follow God
God just knows what man will choose.
Also we really don't have to sort out interpretation differences.
Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way (14)I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Basicly saying we don't need to critique others interpretation, just be sure we don't throw stumbling blocks in each others way.
Either way whether you believe in predestination and I believe in free will(we wont change i'm sure
). End result is that the people that are going to be saved will get saved and we just need to spread the gospel.FenrirsWilly said:
I speaking in terms of belief in General, not in Religion in particular. However given the history of Marxism being turned into a dogmatic and rigid doctrine under the Soviet union, it did come to share many of the same attributes as organized religion. Lets not also forget that to a degree Marx's philosophy was influenced by Feurbach and Saint Simone, both of who dealt with the concerns of religion in terms of alienation and man's relation to God.
lmao, im not going to try and poke to tons of obvious holes in christianity that others might be quick to exploit but really think about this.
people consider scientology completely insane (in general). Doesnt seem too different from christianity...both written by men...and is some alien dude name like xanthar or something coming to pick u up in his space ship any more crazy than the whole great rapture prophecy-thing from christianity?
people consider scientology completely insane (in general). Doesnt seem too different from christianity...both written by men...and is some alien dude name like xanthar or something coming to pick u up in his space ship any more crazy than the whole great rapture prophecy-thing from christianity?
Ok Perfectomo, I'll give it a go.
Just to clarify some of my credentials as Max did in his opening post. I myself became a Christian at around the age of 15, so nearly 15 years of faith for me.
My mother is agnostic, my father is atheist but let us make up our own minds.
It's probably worth a mention that most of my career thus far has been working in
pubs. This has given me a good understanding of people who are not Christian, as well as those who are.
A few years back I obtained an BA (Theology) because I wanted to find out more about my faith. Those years shook my faith far more than anyone telling me I was wrong for reason X or Y. I don't think a second of it was wasted. I realised my faith needed a good shaking.
My church is a Charismatic Evangelical Free Church. Which means bible based with a bit of Pentecostal thrown in.
Intros done, here we go.
"perfectimo:
I have some follow up questions now, I think you may see what I'm doing.
1. If I wanted to stop some bad people from things considered wrong by the Bible and kill them as a solution to this problem would that be a sin?
2. Is judging people a sin?
3. So do you believe we descended from Adam and Eve directly?"
A1. As far as I can see in this example, the answer here would be yes. The feel of the Hebrew 'Thou Shalt not Murder' points towards a premeditated act. It does not say Thou Shalt not Kill', although some have translated it that way. Some think this distinction absolves those who chose the armed forces as a career, because killing someone is but an order, not you working out how to do it. Plus if you kill someone by accident, you'd be stuck. Of course, this opens up more questions.
A2. This question is more open than it looks. In Matthew 7 Jesus warns
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
This passage looks like it condemns judging but is less about judging but the hypocrisy of someone who says you are wrong whilst having visible flaws themselves. Some Christians forget verses 2 and 3. We are supposed to be loving people no matter what they have done or who they are, and leave the judgement stuff to God. So if a time-travelling Hitler came to my house for a cup of tea I'd best put the kettle on. So in short, judging in itself is not wrong- but because we are not perfect we have no right to point out other people, so as Christians we should defer judgement to someone we know who knows better, God.
A3 The answer to this depends on where you are on the Christian spectrum.
The more Conservative you go, the more the answer swings to 'Yes'.
The more Liberal you go, the more you get answers like 'It was just a myth to teach people the origins of the human race. it didn't happen as it was written but there's some truth in there somewhere.'
Personally I lean toward the myth, but I don't discount the fact that it might have happened that way. There's no point in believing in a God that's all powerful but can't just make stuff happen at a whim. I'll only know for sure when I meet God face to face and ask him. Scientific studies have backed up Adam and Eve in as much as we all came from one small tribe of folk in Africa somewhere, which would also help explain why so many cultures had a creation story similar to the one in Genesis.
Anyways, I hope that helped. Feel free to ask any other questions, I'll try and answer them as best as I can, I'll pop on here every now and then.
Just to clarify some of my credentials as Max did in his opening post. I myself became a Christian at around the age of 15, so nearly 15 years of faith for me.
My mother is agnostic, my father is atheist but let us make up our own minds.
It's probably worth a mention that most of my career thus far has been working in
pubs. This has given me a good understanding of people who are not Christian, as well as those who are.
A few years back I obtained an BA (Theology) because I wanted to find out more about my faith. Those years shook my faith far more than anyone telling me I was wrong for reason X or Y. I don't think a second of it was wasted. I realised my faith needed a good shaking.
My church is a Charismatic Evangelical Free Church. Which means bible based with a bit of Pentecostal thrown in.
Intros done, here we go.
"perfectimo:
I have some follow up questions now, I think you may see what I'm doing.
1. If I wanted to stop some bad people from things considered wrong by the Bible and kill them as a solution to this problem would that be a sin?
2. Is judging people a sin?
3. So do you believe we descended from Adam and Eve directly?"
A1. As far as I can see in this example, the answer here would be yes. The feel of the Hebrew 'Thou Shalt not Murder' points towards a premeditated act. It does not say Thou Shalt not Kill', although some have translated it that way. Some think this distinction absolves those who chose the armed forces as a career, because killing someone is but an order, not you working out how to do it. Plus if you kill someone by accident, you'd be stuck. Of course, this opens up more questions.
A2. This question is more open than it looks. In Matthew 7 Jesus warns
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
This passage looks like it condemns judging but is less about judging but the hypocrisy of someone who says you are wrong whilst having visible flaws themselves. Some Christians forget verses 2 and 3. We are supposed to be loving people no matter what they have done or who they are, and leave the judgement stuff to God. So if a time-travelling Hitler came to my house for a cup of tea I'd best put the kettle on. So in short, judging in itself is not wrong- but because we are not perfect we have no right to point out other people, so as Christians we should defer judgement to someone we know who knows better, God.
A3 The answer to this depends on where you are on the Christian spectrum.
The more Conservative you go, the more the answer swings to 'Yes'.
The more Liberal you go, the more you get answers like 'It was just a myth to teach people the origins of the human race. it didn't happen as it was written but there's some truth in there somewhere.'
Personally I lean toward the myth, but I don't discount the fact that it might have happened that way. There's no point in believing in a God that's all powerful but can't just make stuff happen at a whim. I'll only know for sure when I meet God face to face and ask him. Scientific studies have backed up Adam and Eve in as much as we all came from one small tribe of folk in Africa somewhere, which would also help explain why so many cultures had a creation story similar to the one in Genesis.
Anyways, I hope that helped. Feel free to ask any other questions, I'll try and answer them as best as I can, I'll pop on here every now and then.
Redlac can I say thank you?
You managed to answer questions in an affirming yet not condescending way, and seem to understand that your faith is just that, YOUR own.
<3
You managed to answer questions in an affirming yet not condescending way, and seem to understand that your faith is just that, YOUR own.
<3
I know there are many Cristian and pseudo Cristian schools of thought on cosmology, but tell me where you stand on the big question of;
What is the meaning of life, why are we here what is our purpose?
What is the meaning of life, why are we here what is our purpose?
I really don't get it...you've supposedly got a being that is, at best mildly indifferent, at worst chaotically destructive and spiteful. Countless stories of comic book villains 'playing god' or trying to obtain 'godlike power' and yet, you -willingly- accept, and put your faith in another being that has these abilities as a -good- thing?
To put it another way: Say Hitler turned up to you in a dream and said, believe in me and I will grant you eternal life! You, would I assume, be quite upset at this. People know, that he was an evil man, the death of millions on his hands, so, you wouldn't listen to him right? (Although I realise that Hitler was a real person, so, that throws the question of faith in his actual existence out, but, think more along the lines of his -deeds-.)
Yet, in the Bible, the Old Testament, God, has clearly committed genocide, if not mass murder on a grand scale. Now, we're told of course, that these were bad people, non-believers, sinners. And we're just supposed to accept, hey y'know, they deserved it! Every last one of em' including the children, they shouldn't have disrespected God!
Does it make it more right that they were supposedly his creations in the first place? What's that saying? The one about life once given can not be taken away lightly?
To put it another way: Say Hitler turned up to you in a dream and said, believe in me and I will grant you eternal life! You, would I assume, be quite upset at this. People know, that he was an evil man, the death of millions on his hands, so, you wouldn't listen to him right? (Although I realise that Hitler was a real person, so, that throws the question of faith in his actual existence out, but, think more along the lines of his -deeds-.)
Yet, in the Bible, the Old Testament, God, has clearly committed genocide, if not mass murder on a grand scale. Now, we're told of course, that these were bad people, non-believers, sinners. And we're just supposed to accept, hey y'know, they deserved it! Every last one of em' including the children, they shouldn't have disrespected God!
Does it make it more right that they were supposedly his creations in the first place? What's that saying? The one about life once given can not be taken away lightly?
I guess I'll chime in here with my own story. I felt the call to accept Christ when I was sixteen. I was baptized, and all was well...until I actually read the Bible. You see, I have a "trick memory". Not quite photographic, but it's close. On professionally-administered speed-reading tests (and I've had several of them) I don't recall ever getting a comprehension score of under 96%, where the average runs about 60%.
As for reading speed, well let's just say I read the Old Testament one night and the New the following night. And that was the beginning of the end of my faith. I talked with my Pastor, I talked with professors at the local divinity college, I researched on my own...and it just got worse and worse.
There are direct contradictions throughout the Bible. Not trivial, nit-picky things, but really HUGE things. Not just in the Old Testament, and not just differences between the Old and New, but everywhere. Just read the 3 different versions of how Jesus answered "When will you be back?" Now, quit playing mental games like a priest (God works in mysterious ways), and imagine you're a disciple standing there listening to Jesus saying he'd be back in their lifetimes. There are only a few choices: He intentionally deceived them by playing god-games with the definition of "lifetime"; it was recorded wrong; or it was made up.
Then I learned how much of Christianity was just invented by assorted Popes. I'm not talking Catholic rituals, I'm talking about vital matters like Mary being a virgin! (The word actually recorded, translated as "maiden", meant at the time, "young unmarried woman").
Finally, there were several intentional changes made in the revered King James edition, some for nothing better than political reasons. For example, King James was having trouble with the rural folk continuing to follow their pagan beliefs, so "Suffer not a poisoner to live", became about witches, and directly led to the deaths of thousands.
My favorite is the word "firmament". Want to know why that Hebrew word wasn't translated into English? Because the proper modern word would be "colander". God placed a metal bowl with holes in it over the (flat) Earth to separate it from heaven. Heaven is the lights shining through the holes. The "waters above" part is where rain comes from. It falls through the holes (conveniently blocking them so you can't see the stars when it's raining). The book of Enoch (commonly part of the Bible until the Council of Nicea, where they threw a lot of books out in political battles that are fascinating to read about) describes this in much more depth.
Six months of research at sixteen, and I've never again been able to believe in gods, devils, or an afterlife. And left with ZERO respect for those who claim it's the "literal word" of God. Sorry, that is demonstrably false in many ways. Try using the brains God gave you.
As for those who believe in a more symbolic interpretation, I not only respect you, but kinda envy you. I miss those few months of certainty about all this crap having a purpose. Just, if you're in the USA, stay out of my constitution, okay?
As for reading speed, well let's just say I read the Old Testament one night and the New the following night. And that was the beginning of the end of my faith. I talked with my Pastor, I talked with professors at the local divinity college, I researched on my own...and it just got worse and worse.
There are direct contradictions throughout the Bible. Not trivial, nit-picky things, but really HUGE things. Not just in the Old Testament, and not just differences between the Old and New, but everywhere. Just read the 3 different versions of how Jesus answered "When will you be back?" Now, quit playing mental games like a priest (God works in mysterious ways), and imagine you're a disciple standing there listening to Jesus saying he'd be back in their lifetimes. There are only a few choices: He intentionally deceived them by playing god-games with the definition of "lifetime"; it was recorded wrong; or it was made up.
Then I learned how much of Christianity was just invented by assorted Popes. I'm not talking Catholic rituals, I'm talking about vital matters like Mary being a virgin! (The word actually recorded, translated as "maiden", meant at the time, "young unmarried woman").
Finally, there were several intentional changes made in the revered King James edition, some for nothing better than political reasons. For example, King James was having trouble with the rural folk continuing to follow their pagan beliefs, so "Suffer not a poisoner to live", became about witches, and directly led to the deaths of thousands.
My favorite is the word "firmament". Want to know why that Hebrew word wasn't translated into English? Because the proper modern word would be "colander". God placed a metal bowl with holes in it over the (flat) Earth to separate it from heaven. Heaven is the lights shining through the holes. The "waters above" part is where rain comes from. It falls through the holes (conveniently blocking them so you can't see the stars when it's raining). The book of Enoch (commonly part of the Bible until the Council of Nicea, where they threw a lot of books out in political battles that are fascinating to read about) describes this in much more depth.
Six months of research at sixteen, and I've never again been able to believe in gods, devils, or an afterlife. And left with ZERO respect for those who claim it's the "literal word" of God. Sorry, that is demonstrably false in many ways. Try using the brains God gave you.
As for those who believe in a more symbolic interpretation, I not only respect you, but kinda envy you. I miss those few months of certainty about all this crap having a purpose. Just, if you're in the USA, stay out of my constitution, okay?
Thank you for implying that Anglicans and Episcopalians are not devout. Not all of us want to be in the John Nelson Darby fanclub.perfectimo said:
I ask again, as I did in the last Religion-based thread, what the hell is a religious Q&A thread doing in a VIDEO GAME forum?!?!?! I haven't been through all 16 pages of this confusion, but aside from the topic of Assassins Creed apologizing for something I haven't seen yet what is there to talk about here that couldn't be taken elsewhere. Find a Prop 8 site to hash out my future in the afterlife for goodness sake!
First off, thanks Aries_Split.
2. Why were humans created? Well according to scripture for a few reasons.
Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 2:15 state that God created man in order to tend a garden he had created, and to look after all the animals too. We were given full reign to do this however we pleased.
God gave mankind some simple commands to obey whilst in the garden.
Genesis 1:28-29 in a nutshell boils down to- 'Have sex a lot and make babies.' 'Everything that grows here is yours' 'You are boss over the animals too.'
In Genesis 2 15-17 we see a continuation of the conversation. 'Oh yeah you two, there's just one proviso- Don't eat anything off this tree or you'll die.'
It's implied in Genesis 3:8 that God enjoyed afternoon walks in this little garden, so it's reasonable to assume that he talked with Adam and Eve and gave them some gardening tips. God was actually looking for them in this verse it seems, as in verse 9 he asks why they were hiding from him.
Anywhoo, that was our ORIGINAL purpose. To have babies, look after the Garden and the animals and to enjoy the company of our creator.
For some crazy reason human beings listened to a talking serpent and got ourselves kicked out of the garden and fell under the curse of going our own way. In a lot of ways, it didn't turn out too good, as the first ever couple's son killed his brother. We can still see our original commands being worked out though if we look hard enough. We certainly have had lots of sex and babies, we've no doubt subdued the planet.
However, we Christians see that although we've tried to stick to the original plan, we lost the gardening tips and relationship with our creator. So since that time God has tried to renew the relationship he once had with his wayward creations. This eventually ended in God's ultimate rescue package, Jesus Christ. But yeah, that's why we're here in a small Christian theological nutshell.
1. The meaning of it all? I have no idea. Scripture doesn't deal with why exactly God made the cosmos except that it pleased him to do so. Even though I know he did it, I'd like to ask him myself.Endlessorrow said:
2. Why were humans created? Well according to scripture for a few reasons.
Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 2:15 state that God created man in order to tend a garden he had created, and to look after all the animals too. We were given full reign to do this however we pleased.
God gave mankind some simple commands to obey whilst in the garden.
Genesis 1:28-29 in a nutshell boils down to- 'Have sex a lot and make babies.' 'Everything that grows here is yours' 'You are boss over the animals too.'
In Genesis 2 15-17 we see a continuation of the conversation. 'Oh yeah you two, there's just one proviso- Don't eat anything off this tree or you'll die.'
It's implied in Genesis 3:8 that God enjoyed afternoon walks in this little garden, so it's reasonable to assume that he talked with Adam and Eve and gave them some gardening tips. God was actually looking for them in this verse it seems, as in verse 9 he asks why they were hiding from him.
Anywhoo, that was our ORIGINAL purpose. To have babies, look after the Garden and the animals and to enjoy the company of our creator.
For some crazy reason human beings listened to a talking serpent and got ourselves kicked out of the garden and fell under the curse of going our own way. In a lot of ways, it didn't turn out too good, as the first ever couple's son killed his brother. We can still see our original commands being worked out though if we look hard enough. We certainly have had lots of sex and babies, we've no doubt subdued the planet.
However, we Christians see that although we've tried to stick to the original plan, we lost the gardening tips and relationship with our creator. So since that time God has tried to renew the relationship he once had with his wayward creations. This eventually ended in God's ultimate rescue package, Jesus Christ. But yeah, that's why we're here in a small Christian theological nutshell.