Atheism/Depression/Meaning of Life/Nihilism

[Bagaloo]

What I'm interested in, is how she came to be in this state in the first place. Did she just wake up one morning and suddenly 'realise that life is meaningless so what's the point of going on'?

This is the type of situation I like to dub 'philosophy gone mad'. By over thinking everything you end up in a vicious circle which is incredibly difficult to get out of.

Descartes ends up in a similar situation in his Meditations; he reasons that because everything is open to doubt (are we stuck in a dream etc etc) then none of his beliefs can hold true and thus there's no point carrying on because nothing potentially matters.

My view is that whilst it can be fun and incredibly eye opening to go into these massive attempts at rationalising an entire universe, you should take it in an almost light-hearted sort of way, because at the end of the day you need to be able to switch off from these mind bogglingly complex opinions and instead just focus on day to day living for the sake of it, otherwise you end up in the afformentioned vicious circle of psychological doom.

 

[Random Argument Man]

You need to find some challenge in your life. You can do good actions and find a way to motivate yourselves even more.

 

[TerraMGP]

I'm going to quote a good friend of mine when I tell you that

"A Nihilist is just a lazy Existentialist".

In all honesty though I know what you are going though, and its something that I have always felt would result from pure atheism. After all if there is nothing after this what is the point right? That seems to be the Crux of your problem, that you realize if there is not an afterlife that the shrotness and finality of life are all you have to look forward to.

But I also think that you are being a bit closed minded about it.

I don't mean any offense, its simply that you are looking at things and saying 'there can be no god' or 'there can be no afterlife' But really who the hell says there is not? Shouldn't you know for sure before feeling bad all the time? People like Dawkins are quick to just say all faith based religions and spirituality is crap, but what does he know really? My advice to you is to start looking into faiths for yourself, figure out how they work and what they really believe. Read up on the History and culture and traditions of the people, especially Mythology. I mean what do you have to lose right? You either find out that you were wrong and that there is something beyond this narrow mortal coil or you just used up an already meaningless exsistance trying.

I am not trying to push you to Christianity, Hell I would even advise you to start with Druidism (I did when really looking at my spirituality). Granted that is not so much a faith as a philosophy on life for a specific kind of holyman/woman but its a start. Its better than spending all day feeling hopeless right?

 

[hellthins]

I'm going to quote a good friend of mine when I tell you that

"A Nihilist is just a lazy Existentialist".

In all honesty though I know what you are going though, and its something that I have always felt would result from pure atheism. After all if there is nothing after this what is the point right? That seems to be the Crux of your problem, that you realize if there is not an afterlife that the shrotness and finality of life are all you have to look forward to.

But I also think that you are being a bit closed minded about it.

I don't mean any offense, its simply that you are looking at things and saying 'there can be no god' or 'there can be no afterlife' But really who the hell says there is not? Shouldn't you know for sure before feeling bad all the time? People like Dawkins are quick to just say all faith based religions and spirituality is crap, but what does he know really? My advice to you is to start looking into faiths for yourself, figure out how they work and what they really believe. Read up on the History and culture and traditions of the people, especially Mythology. I mean what do you have to lose right? You either find out that you were wrong and that there is something beyond this narrow mortal coil or you just used up an already meaningless exsistance trying.

I am not trying to push you to Christianity, Hell I would even advise you to start with Druidism (I did when really looking at my spirituality). Granted that is not so much a faith as a philosophy on life for a specific kind of holyman/woman but its a start. Its better than spending all day feeling hopeless right?

It's not a result of pure atheism. It's a result of pure nihilism. Atheism isn't inherently nihilistic, but nihilism is inherently depressing because people are not pure nihilists. True nihilism would be closer to a machine, why get depressed? There's no reason to be depressed. Why get happy? There's no reason to be happy.

The problem is a problem of purpose. We just seem to naturally crave purpose. Having a meaningful life is just something we all strive for and desire.

Nor would I say religion would help, so don't push religion here. The issue is a case of depression and not seeing purpose, and try as you might religion isn't the cure for that. All it usually means is that there is something after, not that there's a great deal of purpose here. Especially a lot of Eastern religions which preach that reality is an illusion or a trap that we must disentangle ourselves from.

 

[Skarvey]

Its all about love. Thats life's purpose. I don't know anything that could be MORE clear. You can set about your life accumulating friends, money, piety, whatever, but the singular truth of it all is that love is the only thing that matters. I know this because my girlfriend is exactly the same way, and I mean exactly the same way. So the question you have to ask each other is; If I can only have one, would I be happier knowing all the secrets of the universe, or you?

 

[TerraMGP]

I'm going to quote a good friend of mine when I tell you that

"A Nihilist is just a lazy Existentialist".

In all honesty though I know what you are going though, and its something that I have always felt would result from pure atheism. After all if there is nothing after this what is the point right? That seems to be the Crux of your problem, that you realize if there is not an afterlife that the shrotness and finality of life are all you have to look forward to.

But I also think that you are being a bit closed minded about it.

I don't mean any offense, its simply that you are looking at things and saying 'there can be no god' or 'there can be no afterlife' But really who the hell says there is not? Shouldn't you know for sure before feeling bad all the time? People like Dawkins are quick to just say all faith based religions and spirituality is crap, but what does he know really? My advice to you is to start looking into faiths for yourself, figure out how they work and what they really believe. Read up on the History and culture and traditions of the people, especially Mythology. I mean what do you have to lose right? You either find out that you were wrong and that there is something beyond this narrow mortal coil or you just used up an already meaningless exsistance trying.

I am not trying to push you to Christianity, Hell I would even advise you to start with Druidism (I did when really looking at my spirituality). Granted that is not so much a faith as a philosophy on life for a specific kind of holyman/woman but its a start. Its better than spending all day feeling hopeless right?

It's not a result of pure atheism. It's a result of pure nihilism. Atheism isn't inherently nihilistic, but nihilism is inherently depressing because people are not pure nihilists. True nihilism would be closer to a machine, why get depressed? There's no reason to be depressed. Why get happy? There's no reason to be happy.

The problem is a problem of purpose. We just seem to naturally crave purpose. Having a meaningful life is just something we all strive for and desire.

My point is that it seems the Nhillism is a result of feeling that life is indeed pointless (as you said) because once you get though it your done. But while Anti-Christians like Dawkins profess that Faith is rediculous who the hell said they know what they are talking about? All I am saying is that instead of sitting around feeling lost and helpless because he and his girlfriend don't see anything but a dropoff at the end of the tunnel it may help to instead look around and make sure. Instead of trusting Dawkins and his Extremist Atheist view he should start reading and see for himself if he thinks all spirituality is bunk or if something is there.

I think people like Dawkins and Dobson do far more harm than good because they make just enough sense to get people to accept what they say without going into enough research to make them question it. You should always question everything in life, and question it, and question it, until you can't question anymore. Then take a five minute break, then back to more questioning. Even when you are sure you have things down pat you should question them too, otherwise your just taking what people say at face value and taking on their own views rather than refining yours.

 

[The Iron Ninja]

Might I wholeheartedly suggest she watches this?

 

[hellthins]

I'm going to quote a good friend of mine when I tell you that

"A Nihilist is just a lazy Existentialist".

In all honesty though I know what you are going though, and its something that I have always felt would result from pure atheism. After all if there is nothing after this what is the point right? That seems to be the Crux of your problem, that you realize if there is not an afterlife that the shrotness and finality of life are all you have to look forward to.

But I also think that you are being a bit closed minded about it.

I don't mean any offense, its simply that you are looking at things and saying 'there can be no god' or 'there can be no afterlife' But really who the hell says there is not? Shouldn't you know for sure before feeling bad all the time? People like Dawkins are quick to just say all faith based religions and spirituality is crap, but what does he know really? My advice to you is to start looking into faiths for yourself, figure out how they work and what they really believe. Read up on the History and culture and traditions of the people, especially Mythology. I mean what do you have to lose right? You either find out that you were wrong and that there is something beyond this narrow mortal coil or you just used up an already meaningless exsistance trying.

I am not trying to push you to Christianity, Hell I would even advise you to start with Druidism (I did when really looking at my spirituality). Granted that is not so much a faith as a philosophy on life for a specific kind of holyman/woman but its a start. Its better than spending all day feeling hopeless right?

It's not a result of pure atheism. It's a result of pure nihilism. Atheism isn't inherently nihilistic, but nihilism is inherently depressing because people are not pure nihilists. True nihilism would be closer to a machine, why get depressed? There's no reason to be depressed. Why get happy? There's no reason to be happy.

The problem is a problem of purpose. We just seem to naturally crave purpose. Having a meaningful life is just something we all strive for and desire.

My point is that it seems the Nhillism is a result of feeling that life is indeed pointless (as you said) because once you get though it your done. But while Anti-Christians like Dawkins profess that Faith is rediculous who the hell said they know what they are talking about? All I am saying is that instead of sitting around feeling lost and helpless because he and his girlfriend don't see anything but a dropoff at the end of the tunnel it may help to instead look around and make sure. Instead of trusting Dawkins and his Extremist Atheist view he should start reading and see for himself if he thinks all spirituality is bunk or if something is there.

I think people like Dawkins and Dobson do far more harm than good because they make just enough sense to get people to accept what they say without going into enough research to make them question it. You should always question everything in life, and question it, and question it, until you can't question anymore. Then take a five minute break, then back to more questioning. Even when you are sure you have things down pat you should question them too, otherwise your just taking what people say at face value and taking on their own views rather than refining yours.

You know what, no. I'm not doing this. You're not going to get convinced of anything.

That being said, take this elsewhere. This seems to be a genuine topic and this is not about trying to convince people of spirituality of any sort. These are deep rooted problems that go beyond anything like atheism or Christianity or Hinduism or any of that. Religious or irreligious she sounds like she'd have the same problem, and that needs to actually be addressed and not just swept under the rug.

 

[TerraMGP]

I'm going to quote a good friend of mine when I tell you that

"A Nihilist is just a lazy Existentialist".

In all honesty though I know what you are going though, and its something that I have always felt would result from pure atheism. After all if there is nothing after this what is the point right? That seems to be the Crux of your problem, that you realize if there is not an afterlife that the shrotness and finality of life are all you have to look forward to.

But I also think that you are being a bit closed minded about it.

I don't mean any offense, its simply that you are looking at things and saying 'there can be no god' or 'there can be no afterlife' But really who the hell says there is not? Shouldn't you know for sure before feeling bad all the time? People like Dawkins are quick to just say all faith based religions and spirituality is crap, but what does he know really? My advice to you is to start looking into faiths for yourself, figure out how they work and what they really believe. Read up on the History and culture and traditions of the people, especially Mythology. I mean what do you have to lose right? You either find out that you were wrong and that there is something beyond this narrow mortal coil or you just used up an already meaningless exsistance trying.

I am not trying to push you to Christianity, Hell I would even advise you to start with Druidism (I did when really looking at my spirituality). Granted that is not so much a faith as a philosophy on life for a specific kind of holyman/woman but its a start. Its better than spending all day feeling hopeless right?

It's not a result of pure atheism. It's a result of pure nihilism. Atheism isn't inherently nihilistic, but nihilism is inherently depressing because people are not pure nihilists. True nihilism would be closer to a machine, why get depressed? There's no reason to be depressed. Why get happy? There's no reason to be happy.

The problem is a problem of purpose. We just seem to naturally crave purpose. Having a meaningful life is just something we all strive for and desire.

My point is that it seems the Nhillism is a result of feeling that life is indeed pointless (as you said) because once you get though it your done. But while Anti-Christians like Dawkins profess that Faith is rediculous who the hell said they know what they are talking about? All I am saying is that instead of sitting around feeling lost and helpless because he and his girlfriend don't see anything but a dropoff at the end of the tunnel it may help to instead look around and make sure. Instead of trusting Dawkins and his Extremist Atheist view he should start reading and see for himself if he thinks all spirituality is bunk or if something is there.

I think people like Dawkins and Dobson do far more harm than good because they make just enough sense to get people to accept what they say without going into enough research to make them question it. You should always question everything in life, and question it, and question it, until you can't question anymore. Then take a five minute break, then back to more questioning. Even when you are sure you have things down pat you should question them too, otherwise your just taking what people say at face value and taking on their own views rather than refining yours.

You know what, no. I'm not doing this. You're not going to get convinced of anything.

That being said, take this elsewhere. This seems to be a genuine topic and this is not about trying to convince people of spirituality of any sort. These are deep rooted problems that go beyond anything like atheism or Christianity or Hinduism or any of that. Religious or irreligious she sounds like she'd have the same problem, and that needs to actually be addressed and not just swept under the rug.

Yes, she has genuine problems but as someone who has gone though all of this I will tell you that part of the way to fix it is going to be at least finding something to hold on to. Maybe its spirituality, maybe not, but living in a depression will only make it worse. Yes she should be going to get help somewhere, But that is another issue and one that i am pretty sure is being addressed on some level or she would not be getting any form of medication. I am simply stating as a person who once spent several years in a hopeless and suicidal state for similar reasons that you need something to hold on to. Maybe its not spirituality, maybe its just that savage feel that you will find some meaning to life. I don't care. But you need something or else the depression and the hopelessness and the despair will crush you under foot until you can't take it anymore.

I know this, I lived this, I have attempted to commit suicide on several occasions. The second you stop fighting to find something to hold onto in life the second you let that depression win. You have to fight it with every ounce of your strength and never give in. It knocks you down you have to come back twice as hard. Its like a cancer for the emotions and without a will to fight against it and something, anything to start pushing forward and make progress no amount of medication is going to help

 

[geizr]

I'm not going to pretend that I have a solution to your dilemma, because I don't. However, I will say that it sounds to me like both you and she ran into the "ultimately" problem; where are we ultimately going? What are we ultimately doing things for? What is the ultimate end and purpose of all things? When you try to put things into that context, you easily find everything to be useless and worthless. However, we come to that conclusion because we have no actual information upon which to base a true conclusion, and we have no ability to comprehend eternity(kinda hard to put that into a finite space like our brains).

What makes one think life has meaning? What makes one think life has no meaning? What irrefutable information do we really have that allows us to conclude, with absolute certainty, one way or the other? As best as I can tell, we have none. We are all asking questions, and as yet, we have no real answers. But we each do our small part to work toward finding that answer. We each travel a small way in the journey toward the ultimate answer, whatever it may be. We each contribute our small part toward finding that answer, toward making sense of the ultimate scheme of things. None of us can expect to know that complete answer within our lifetime, but the hope and faith is that our small part in it all will eventually lead to the finding of that answer.

As far as happiness is concerned, there need not be a reason to it. There only needs to be whether or not the action is enjoyed by the person engaging in that action. Your girlfriend says that she likes helping others. Does she not feel this is enough? What more is she looking for in that? If it is purpose that she is looking for in this, perhaps it is her purpose to build a great foundation that ends world poverty and hunger. Or perhaps, her purpose is to be the helping hand to the person who will eventually go on to such greatness. Even if her own name is not carved into eternity, her efforts are still part of the movement of the whole. Whatever purpose there is in it from the view of "ultimately" and eternity, would it not be sufficient to simply ask "what would you like to see done?" and then be the one that does it.

Now will her efforts be remembered for all eternity? Maybe, maybe not. The universe and existence is big and unknown enough that this question can't really be answered by us from the "ultimately" perspective, again because we just don't have any real information(and our little minds probably couldn't handle it anyway). The only thing any of us can do is choose our path and walk it. I know that sounds like a cop-out, but until we have a true way of observing and knowing "ultimately", that's about the best we can do. Maybe that could be a purpose for her, to find a way to truly observe and know "ultimately".

Hmm...now that I read through it, this all sounds pretty pompous, but take it however you will. Maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't. Like I said, I can't say that I really have an answer to your dilemma; this is just my own little take on these things.

I will say one other thing that someone else pointed out; sitting around thinking things by yourself all the time will twist you all kinds of ways into insanity. Thoughts echoing around inside only your own head have a strange tendency to turn toward negative energy(I have this demon-hole conjecture around this sort of thing; however I don't want to get into it here). It becomes too easy to presume that you have all the correct answers to everything when the opposite is true. Only way to fix that is to get out and get feedback from others. Even the most introverted person needs to get out once in a while and interact with other people.

(*groan*...I've created another wall-o-text that will just get ignored because it's a wall-o-text. I've really got to work on being more concise.)

 

[TerraMGP]

I'm going to quote a good friend of mine when I tell you that

"A Nihilist is just a lazy Existentialist".

In all honesty though I know what you are going though, and its something that I have always felt would result from pure atheism. After all if there is nothing after this what is the point right? That seems to be the Crux of your problem, that you realize if there is not an afterlife that the shrotness and finality of life are all you have to look forward to.

But I also think that you are being a bit closed minded about it.

I don't mean any offense, its simply that you are looking at things and saying 'there can be no god' or 'there can be no afterlife' But really who the hell says there is not? Shouldn't you know for sure before feeling bad all the time? People like Dawkins are quick to just say all faith based religions and spirituality is crap, but what does he know really? My advice to you is to start looking into faiths for yourself, figure out how they work and what they really believe. Read up on the History and culture and traditions of the people, especially Mythology. I mean what do you have to lose right? You either find out that you were wrong and that there is something beyond this narrow mortal coil or you just used up an already meaningless exsistance trying.

I am not trying to push you to Christianity, Hell I would even advise you to start with Druidism (I did when really looking at my spirituality). Granted that is not so much a faith as a philosophy on life for a specific kind of holyman/woman but its a start. Its better than spending all day feeling hopeless right?

yah, let's waste our only life pursuing bullshit instead of going out and actually doing things that matter. that's the best way to make the most of your precious few years.

Something that matters like what? you really don't seem to understand the mentality behind this. If everything is finite, fleeting, temporary, then doing anything other than washing away every speck of life on this world with a nuclear winter is pointless. The best you can hope for is having personal enjoyment because your not going to get a second chance at things and anyone you help is simply going to die anyways after suffering more highs and lows. Its prolonging the inevitable of a dying patient without being able to ease the suffering.

That is where these two seem to be, and its a horrible place to find yourself. Telling them to 'do something worthwhile' is pointless because nothing is worthwhile if it all stops in the end. Doing something 'because its right' becomes meaningless. You need something to fight for in life, some greater curiosity even if it is only to spend your life looking for answers to IF there is a beyond. I'm not saying don't help people, but without even a glimmer of hope, help and indeed life are pretty pointless.

 

[TerraMGP]

I'm going to quote a good friend of mine when I tell you that

"A Nihilist is just a lazy Existentialist".

In all honesty though I know what you are going though, and its something that I have always felt would result from pure atheism. After all if there is nothing after this what is the point right? That seems to be the Crux of your problem, that you realize if there is not an afterlife that the shrotness and finality of life are all you have to look forward to.

But I also think that you are being a bit closed minded about it.

I don't mean any offense, its simply that you are looking at things and saying 'there can be no god' or 'there can be no afterlife' But really who the hell says there is not? Shouldn't you know for sure before feeling bad all the time? People like Dawkins are quick to just say all faith based religions and spirituality is crap, but what does he know really? My advice to you is to start looking into faiths for yourself, figure out how they work and what they really believe. Read up on the History and culture and traditions of the people, especially Mythology. I mean what do you have to lose right? You either find out that you were wrong and that there is something beyond this narrow mortal coil or you just used up an already meaningless exsistance trying.

I am not trying to push you to Christianity, Hell I would even advise you to start with Druidism (I did when really looking at my spirituality). Granted that is not so much a faith as a philosophy on life for a specific kind of holyman/woman but its a start. Its better than spending all day feeling hopeless right?

yah, let's waste our only life pursuing bullshit instead of going out and actually doing things that matter. that's the best way to make the most of your precious few years.

Something that matters like what? you really don't seem to understand the mentality behind this. If everything is finite, fleeting, temporary, then doing anything other than washing away every speck of life on this world with a nuclear winter is pointless. The best you can hope for is having personal enjoyment because your not going to get a second chance at things and anyone you help is simply going to die anyways after suffering more highs and lows. Its prolonging the inevitable of a dying patient without being able to ease the suffering.

That is where these two seem to be, and its a horrible place to find yourself. Telling them to 'do something worthwhile' is pointless because nothing is worthwhile if it all stops in the end. Doing something 'because its right' becomes meaningless. You need something to fight for in life, some greater curiosity even if it is only to spend your life looking for answers to IF there is a beyond. I'm not saying don't help people, but without even a glimmer of hope, help and indeed life are pretty pointless.

of course your argument becomes moot when I mention that I am in the exact same position as them and thus able to offer advise one atheist to another. I chose to live my life without even the remote possibility of god. I chose to get a degree and a job and spend as much time as possible satisfying my whims, along with if at all possible helping my parents satisfy their whims. Life IS pointless, IF you make it pointless. otherwise the point of life is to be happy, do what you want, let others do what they want, and then bite the dust. basically; live on your terms, die on your terms, do not squander the one chance you get. Further your point of nothing short of a nuclear blast make any difference. What about, Einstein, newton, Galileo, even bush dumb ass Jr. are you saying there actions will not be remembered? but if their action aren't remembered, how have I heard of all three of the former? they didn't do anything memorable according to you.

First, I'm not talking about finding god specifically, just looking for deeper meaning and something beyond what we know. Second, Good for you, I am glad. Not everyone can get by though on 'you have to make the best of the time you have now' because your going to have that nagging 'Guess what, it doesn't matter what you do because its all going to end'. Its true too, if the world for you ends when you die then why the hell should it matter who remembers you? Its all well and good if they are remembered but they are Dead. They don't give a damn. Anyways the human race will die out eventually anyways and then it wouldn't matter even if it mattered before.

This kind of depression is not something all atheists feel, I am not saying that, but shutting out a huge batch of potential 'what if' scenarios and ideas beyond what we understand now is not going to help with a depression that STEMS from feeling that everything is useless and pointless no matter what you do. Its all the dance of the dead, where all are equal. My argument is not that All atheists end up this way, but rather it is an outlook that shuts out the 'what could be' that may come after which seems to be common among atheists, in part because most would equate any idea of an afterlife or reincarnation of any sort with a supreme being and thus its shut out by atheism regardless of the idea behind it.

You are happy, well adjusted and content with your lot in life, great. These people are not and from the sounds of it the reasons are the same that I and many others have suffered though over the years, that at some point you realize that without even the chance of something more everything is finite and pointless. The only way to combat that is to fight it head on.

 

[TerraMGP]

Sorry for any misunderstanding, also in regards to the OP while I realize that its more his girlfriend having the problem I kind of felt that he was saying they both had a bit of a problem moving along according to what he said. I could be wrong though and if so I'm sorry.

I'm running on 28 hours thus far with no sleep, or more. lost count.

 

[geizr]

This may be an ignorant question on my part(and someone may have already answered it), but does atheism necessarily exclude the possibility of any sort of afterlife or conception of anything beyond the current mortal, observable life? Granted it's not the same as that conceived by the various religions, but does it by necessity exclude any possibility of eternity? Does it by necessity exclude any sense of purpose, meaning, or hope in the future?

 

[TerraMGP]

This may be an ignorant question on my part(and someone may have already answered it), but does atheism necessarily exclude the possibility of any sort of afterlife or conception of anything beyond the current mortal, observable life? Granted it's not the same as that conceived by the various religions, but does it by necessity exclude any possibility of eternity? Does it by necessity exclude any sense of purpose, meaning, or hope in the future?

Technically no according to my understanding/dictionary definition. However it excludes the beleife in any sort of higher or 'supreme being' as such. So for example greater spirits who could interact with this world might be considered 'godlike' enough that if you believe in them, you cross over to agnostic but technically simply thinking that your soul hangs around when you die or something else happens is still in the realm of atheism. Usually though, at least to my understanding, Atheism excludes an afterlife as most every theory on the afterlife deals with things most Atheists might consider deific.

Then again I think an atheist might be a better person to answer, just my observation.

 

[Break]

Erm... To be honest, this is kind of eery. I know someone who's in... A very similar situation. Strong depression, found nihilism and took it badly, feels largely numb, only does anything so that people don't worry about him, finds it difficult to think of real reasons against suicide, only really enjoys helping people, but finds interacting with others exhausting, overthinks things, but loathes deliberately avoiding issues... It's not the nihilism that's made him depressed, as he grew to see it more like you do, and he's only had neutral experiences with medication in the past, but he still feels very hopeless, and finds it difficult to do things. I personally find the coincidence somewhat jarring.

I don't have any real advice to give, I'm afraid. I do think that this isn't something you can't push along with inspirational quotes, though. It may be something she needs to find her own answer to, and that would need a lot of time. It may even be that she's not depressed solely due to taking the negative side of nihilism, and that there are other issues that she finds it hard to come to terms with. Sorry I couldn't be of any real help, even in terms of whatever help an internet stranger can offer.

 

[FarleShadow]

ah fuck it, its a three page thread and its prolly already been said