BioWare Co-Founder Accuses JRPGs of Stagnation

[boholikeu]

I miss my old turnbased JRPG's. They were always about the STORY, not the gameplay. Where's my Legend of Dragoon and Skies of Arcadias? They're all action-rpg's now. No more turn based, and the characters are lumped together from the stereotype bin.

I tried playing Rogue Galaxy, and while there were bits that drew me in, it was mostly just "generic action rpg title 48." We need a return to the old turn based style, but a reinvention of it as well. Legend of Dragoon made some interesting changes to the old "select attack, press X, wait" system.

Friend, grab yourself a copy of:

Xenosaga

Valkyrie Profile

Ar Tonelico

Cross Edge

FFXI


You'll thank me.

Why is Cross Edge on that list? I never played it personally, but it was pretty much universally panned by reviewers.

 

[spartan773]

Now i agree with what he says about JRPGs falling behind their western cousins.

now this part is probably stupid... but what RPGs did BioWare create?

 

[More Fun To Compute]

what RPGs did BioWare create?

Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood.

 

[Dommyboy]

Valkyria Chronicles was pretty inventive.

Still, JRPG's could use more evolution.

I would barely find Valkyria Chronicles to be a JRPG. More of a turn based strategy game.


Gonna agree with Greg Zeschuk on this, JRPGs, particularly like FF, have become very stagnant. Though, while the plot becomes see through, I've never played FF much so I would still enjoy it.

Basically, every company if a one trick pony now. BioWare makes RPGs, Valve makes FPSs, Square Enix makes RPGs.

Though, disagreeing with people that find BioWare hypocritical in this. BioWare helped spur forth morale based systems, choices and sexual options in game. Also, is everybody just completely forgetting the new MMORPG they are creating, The Old Republic?

 

[Gindil]

If we step back far enough, we'll see that there's no huge difference between WRPGs and JRPGs. They cater mostly to a specific audience. JRPGs are lauded for the story involved with characters. Almost as if they're a part of the book or movie medium (Xenosaga, MGS, I'm LOOKING AT YOU TWO!) Sometimes they get it right. But more than likely most RPGs won't be seen outside of their home country and meet with success. See other games such as GTA III in Japan or the D3 videogames of Japan fame.

WRPGs are usually lauded for the stories they create for the people involved. This has been fairly new. But I believe it's safe to say that with the choices they give consumers, it'll be different from what JRPGs are. But so help me, if I'm only given a cookie cutter ending again (Jade Empire) after 40 hours of work, there will be a reckonin a comin!

 

[Sevre]

Alright quit bashing the JRPGs. What the hell is it with this industry these days, every company whinges about every other company? Goddamnit there's people out there who enjoy these games as they are and that's why they keep making them. Since when do you buy Final Fantasy for the exhilarating gameplay? Since when do you buy Oblivion for the memorable characters and storyline?

 

[DRTJR]

JRPGs started a little ahead of their western counterparts
now they have little ground to cover to get to it's zenith
but hey i'm still playing chrono trigger

 

[Crazy_Bird]

Well he got a point concerning the dialog system.

Yet I don't see how Bioware games were the best thing
in the RPG landscape. Dragon Age is mainly the same standard
game they made again and again. It stays enjoyable but it is not nearly
as innovative as BioWare wants it to be.

The dialog menu in Dragon Age and Mass Effect etc. can be accused of the same sins.
I don't think it is possible to say no to something in Dragon Age and I tried it.
So I guess a little humility would be a good thing for Bioware employees.

 

[spartan773]

anything else?

 

[spartan773]

what RPGs did BioWare create?

Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood.

anything else?

 

[GeneralGrant]

Mmmm

There's some truth to his accusation. It'd be nice if JRPGs could progress beyond having the main character be a young teenager in ridiculous clothing for once. The dialogue in JRPGs is usually horrendous as well, at least the characters in bioware RPGs usually have something interesting to say, even if they may take too long to say it.

On the other hand, the JRPG formula is fun, if a bit stale.

 

[GestaltEsper]

...Alright I'll bite, can someone tell me the great differences in this generation's wrpgs?

 

[A random person]

Six threads of "I agree" and Final Fantasy fans patting each other on the back for enjoying interactive anime games.
Most pointless thread so far.

You also forgot the JRPG fanboys going "So?! WE LIKE IT LIKE THIS!" Though interactive anime does sound about right, especially as it seems to share the creepy obsession with young children.

I won't even begin to delve into how associating an affinity with cartoons not aimed at children and games with deeper narratives being somehow linked to pedophilia is somehow logically or morally sound.

I will simply *headdesk* and pray to the gods for your swift and timely death.

I would ask to join you, but I've been doing what you're doing with him for a while now, so you're joining me.

Also, I take back my praise for this JRPG thread not being horrible, it really is going through the motions that all the other JRPG threads do. Hell, threads about Japanese things period seem to do this (i.e people throwing pedophilia around, extolling western supremacy, other things you'll know if you spend time here).

 

[More Fun To Compute]

what RPGs did BioWare create?

Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood.

anything else?

They also made MDK2.

 

[Gindil]

...Alright I'll bite, can someone tell me the great differences in this generation's wrpgs?

You get three endings instead of one. The good ending is if you're morally right, there's the neutral ending of indifference, then there's the final ending where you're basically an A-hole to everyone.

If you mean from each other... Setting. I can't think of anything else. At least Dragon Age gave you a different origin. But I don't know how the ending went.

 

[spartan773]

what RPGs did BioWare create?

Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood.

anything else?

They also made MDK2.

ah... they also made KoTOR and Jade Empire.
they also made mass effect and baulder's gate... Now i know them.

 

[boholikeu]

...Alright I'll bite, can someone tell me the great differences in this generation's wrpgs?

Most of the changes between this generation's WRPGs and the last have to do with the move into 3D. Studios have developed techniques to make a game feel more cinematic without actually using cut scenes. They've also started borrowing FPS elements like aiming and physics, and have often taken a second look at "traditional" RPG mechanics in order to make them more accessible to the common gamer.

So while the basic structure and stories of WRPGs might be pretty similar (perhaps even more than JRPGs) through a game designer's eye there has been a clear progression over the years. If you look at the quotes in the article it's pretty clear that this is what he's referring to, too. Most JRPGs just haven't developed new storytelling techniques since the PS1 era, and they still make bad design decisions like random battles, forced grinding, or pointless dialogue questions like the one example given in the quote.

Now before you jump on me I do realize there are exceptions to this generalization (heck, I'd be happy to list some myself), but as long as the majority of JRPGs are made with the akiba gamer in mind we'll continue to see people complaining about the genre being stagnant.

 

[Azazcyh]

While i adore Bioware and could say that i am a fanboy of them, it seems wrong of them to say this.

Mass Effect - Dark beings never seen before come about to destroy all organic life in the galaxy and only 1 man can stop them. (Spectre's as a special class)

Dragon Age - Dark beings from underneath the earth come to destroy the world. Only one type of hero can stop them, Grey Wardens.

Don't get me wrong, i love both games and Bioware so MUCH and can't wait for Mass Effect 2 but they seem a little like hypocrites.

I would point out that the Geth/{Other bad guys I don't want to spoil} behave very differently to the Darkspawn of Dragon Age. Though I do know what you mean, the Bioware games do seem to have a similar 'framework' if you will for the gameplay. But at least that framework includes choices about where you want to take your {insert main character here} throughout their world/story.

Oh, and all the JRPGs I've seen/tried seem to have an almost pedophilic interest in having party characters under the age of consent... I mean, is it just because Japan seems to have that as a cultural thing or what?

Don't know if this has been said already, but I'll give it shot anyway.

I always thought the reason most of the characters were young in JRPGs was because, and this is just a guess because there's no way for me to be sure, that most JRPG fans tend to be of a younger group, therefore making the characters easier to relate too. Then again, this is japan. So who knows?

As for the original post, it always bugs me when people want to change a current genre just to cater to what they want, even though there is already a genre that does what there asking for.

I love Bioware, and if I want to play a game where, I shape what happens, I'll play one of Bioware's games or possibly a different WRPG, but if I want to play a game where I'm told an epic story through a game, I'll play a JRPG. Let's keep verity, by keeping linearity.