BioWare Co-Founder Accuses JRPGs of Stagnation

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matrix3509

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boholikeu said:
Actually the most common complaint from Japanese consumers isn't that WRPGs are all the same, it's that they are too open. Japanese players don't know where to go or what choice to make, and so they get bored because they don't think anything meaningful is happening.
That may be, but thats all the more reason why this dude shouldn't be dissing an entire genre like he his. What this guy doesn't like about JRPGs is actually a big selling point for the "core" gamer in Japan. There is nothing really "wrong" with JRPGs. Its the difference in perspective thats the problem.

Like I said, Regionalism at its best(worst).
 
Aug 30, 2009
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All I can say, is that me and JRPG'S never see eye-to-eye.
However, I just can't stop thinking that 2010 will be the year of the RPG.

look at all the titles coming out the beginning 2010.
 

theSovietConnection

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Hiroshi Mishima said:
*Snipped for room*
I think the big difference between the "stangnation" (if that's what you wish to call it) of the JRPG, and Bioware having very similar storylines, is that Bioware is one company, while the JRPG is an entire genre/sub-genre. Bioware's storylines all being quite similar is thus a little more understandable. The fact that an entire genre has begun to stagnate is a little worrying. However, in response to both Bioware and JRPGs remaining unchanging, I prefer the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy.If Bioware games and JRPGs are selling well, there is no need to change them. Is it a good thing? Not always. A lack of innovation will lead to the stagnation and eventual fall of either division here.
 

boholikeu

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slopeslider said:
They're two different things. It's like comparing the 'choose your own adventure' books with normal ones. two different things for two different demographics expecting two different experiences out of it. If you were asked to use a DVORAK keyboard instead of QWERTY I bet you wouldn't like it as much as the qwerty, as you're not used to it and it takes longer to get anywhere. And vice versa. The same goes for rpg's; just because they have the same name doesn't mean they are for the same demographic. If it weren't for jrpg's then there would be a void among the infinite sea of choose your own adventure (within limits of course) wrpgs.
Of course I get sick of some of jrpg's cliches but if I want something different I go back and play fallout and ME.
matrix3509 said:
That may be, but thats all the more reason why this dude shouldn't be dissing an entire genre like he his. What this guy doesn't like about JRPGs is actually a big selling point for the "core" gamer in Japan. There is nothing really "wrong" with JRPGs. Its the difference in perspective thats the problem.

Like I said, Regionalism at its best(worst).
Hm, not sure if you guys read the top part of my post or just the part addressed to Matrix3509, but I didn't mean to imply that JRPGs (or any linear RPG for that matter) shouldn't exist. I like linear stories just as much as open-ended ones, so long as the gameplay reflects the main ideas of a narrative. JRPGs generally don't do the latter. They still generally rely on non-interactive sequences to further the plot, whereas Western RPGs (and even FPS games and action games) have evolved a lot of new storytelling techniques over the last 10 years. I think this is generally what developers are referring to when they say JRPGs are "stagnant" because if you are only talking about plot cliches Western RPGs don't fare much better.
 

CK76

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The biggest issue I've seen for JRPGs (as a PS3 owner) is hardly any out. The PS2 was flat out awesome, had all sort of flavors of JRPGs. I love the battle systems (for me Grandia 2 for Dreamcast and PS2 is the most enjoyable battle system I have ever enjoyed, 1 and 3 in the series are also good) of JRPGs. The stories are...okay, frankly I've never tried to compare games to literature or film in this regard. If character designs are interesting and world is fun, then I'm good.

WRPGs tend to appeal to western sensibilities of having battles in dungeon (instead of magical transport "battle area") and take place in real time. In Dragon Age (a game I really like) this meant pause, action, pause, action, pause, action, pause, action, or else it seemed my characters let leave of their senses and I'd die. It's not bad, but honestly, it's not the high point of it to me. That'd be characters, dialog trees and character customization.

Happy with Dragon Age, now I'd like Grandia 4 to enjoy battling away. Some experiences are fine with new coats of paint. Now, I'm off to play yet another Zelda with set dungeons and puzzles which I will enjoy very much.
 

Gindil

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See, this is the problem with generic statements. They don't cut to the heart of what's at stake. "Oh, JRPGs are stagnating" But then, what is so stagnating about them? Where are the examples? "I love Demon Souls because it is unique" So are the myriad of Atlus games, buddy!

Here's where I see his reasoning:

Final Fantasy as a genre developer, has had us used to having to be shoehorned into a specific way of doing things. If the story is pretty good, then we finish the game for that. The gameplay on most RPGs can feel similar. Look at any Mons game, that really hasn't branched to anything TOO spectacular, or Dragon Quest that cater pretty specifically to the Japanese gamer.

Here's where his reasoning diverges:
The World Ends with You, which makes accessorizing unique.
Persona, which gets pretty heady sometimes.
His entire belief that JRPGs haven't evolved.

Yes, evolution takes time. But the Western RPGs aren't any better about giving players choices. They've just taken a little more time to hide them from the player.
 

boholikeu

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Gindil said:
Yes, evolution takes time. But the Western RPGs aren't any better about giving players choices. They've just taken a little more time to hide them from the player.
This actually takes more technique than you realize, and it's a big reason why I think Western RPGs are generally better designed than JRPGs.
 

Gindil

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boholikeu said:
This actually takes more technique than you realize, and it's a big reason why I think Western RPGs are generally better designed than JRPGs.
I'm aware that it takes some time. But Greg is dismissing an entire genre and not looking at games that truly innovate. There have been some games that were far better than what he is trying to allude to. But in this Politically Correct world, his entire comment reads more an attack on the genre of JRPG and less on what could be done to "fix" it. It's great he has an opinion. It would be even better if he'd just come out like Itagaki and say what could be done to improve them. Makes for a little bit of controversy, true. Otherwise, his comments are too generic to really be taken seriously.
 

Red_Bedlam

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Pot calling kettle.

Didn't they just spend billions marketing Dragons Age as a "spiritual sequel" to the Baldur's Gate franchise? A return to form and 'classic' play?

They did

But I guess it's different than a company like Square mining their own barrel for concepts and ideas they've used before. Somehow. Yeah.

When Bioware does it, it's a return to form. When a Japanese company does it, stagnation.

Word.
 

boholikeu

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Gindil said:
boholikeu said:
This actually takes more technique than you realize, and it's a big reason why I think Western RPGs are generally better designed than JRPGs.
I'm aware that it takes some time. But Greg is dismissing an entire genre and not looking at games that truly innovate. There have been some games that were far better than what he is trying to allude to. But in this Politically Correct world, his entire comment reads more an attack on the genre of JRPG and less on what could be done to "fix" it. It's great he has an opinion. It would be even better if he'd just come out like Itagaki and say what could be done to improve them. Makes for a little bit of controversy, true. Otherwise, his comments are too generic to really be taken seriously.
Good point, though in his defense the video game media might is just taking some off-hand comment he made and turning it into a story. No doubt he'd explain it in greater depth like Itagaki did if given the time.
 

HappyPillz

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I completely disagree with Bioware. Sure, JRPGs recycle alot, what genre doesn't? JRPG are usualy the only games with a storyline complex and original enough to keep me interested. And they are pretty much the only games that you can play for more than 10 hours, and still have stuff to do. I don't know, but with all the freedom you get in WRPGs, the stories can only be vague. I find that they just make me think I'm playing an elaborate Sims game.
 

sanzo

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Grayjack72 said:
sanzo said:
Pretty much this. Pick up any of the recent or, hell, even the old SMT games and try to tell me they aren't good. I heartily recommend Devil Survivor for the DS or Persona 4 for the ps2
I heartily recommend Nocturne.
Might have a bit of trouble finding it, but yeah.

Like I said, pretty much any of the SMT games are a good choice. In fact, almost anything localized by Atlus is pure gold
 

likalaruku

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"The fall of the JRPG in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a lack of progression. They kept delivering the same thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier, but it's still the same experience."

Anime is also guilty of that. They keep spewing out the same unoriginal plots & cliches & all this "moe" crap. That & the mainstreamness of anime taking away the secluded geeky feeling of being a fan have made anime really uncool these past 10 years, like Hot Topic.

As for JRPGs, they're eyecandy, but they're all the same story.
 

likalaruku

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quellan_thyde said:
This from the same BioWare that has essentially been making the same game since the days of Neverwinter? Pot = kettle \ black.
It's all Dungeons & Dragons based, the the games seem different enough to me. Hell, it's my main staple.
 

Low Key

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I thought Star Ocean: Till The End of Time was okay, but he's right. I understand there will always be some sort of repetition within companies, but the entire JRPG genre is almost exactly the same from one game to the next.
 

Helba1984

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I start to warm up to western developers until they start spewing hate-speech like this.

They have their own conventions to rely on, and frankly I'm just fine with JRPGs repackaging the same thing if IT WORKS.

I'll play a western RPG if I want zero narrative and way too many distractions with no depth.

I'll play a JRPG if I want a fucking coherent narrative that someone put some thought into more than "elves don't like dwarves, and make that lady not wear clothes."
 

Helba1984

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quellan_thyde said:
This from the same BioWare that has essentially been making the same game since the days of Neverwinter? Pot = kettle \ black.
You sir, speak more truth than the entire western development world ever has on this subject in one sentence.
 

Helba1984

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Therumancer said:
I have sort of the opposite opinion from Bioware's founders. I think that too much innovation is killing Western RPGs for a lot of RPG fans. Looking at my father for example who is the one who got ME into RPG video games, and the fact that he can't stand most modern RPGs with their obsession with real time, MAYBE a single customizable character that is "you" (as opposed to making your own party), and inserting action elements. My dad hates JRPGs with a passion (I play them however), he likes WRPGs, but in general feels that pretty much all of the current ones over the last decade or so have blown chips. Dragon Age: Origins (ironic since I'm responding to comments made by Bioware) being one of the rare exceptions, but honestly that interested him MORE by going back to the basics on a lot of things, than because of any of it's "innovations".


See, a lot of the appeal to RPGs has always been in the thinking that goes into them, mind before twitch so to speak. The various "innovations" we've seen have been successful in pulling a more "common" kind of player into the genere, with things like "action RPGs" that are twitch fests with minimal statistics, but some RPG-like customization (think Borderlands). When you get people saying "I hate turn based, and don't like too many numbers that are going to make my head hurt, but I like RPGs" I think it kind of shows that really RPGs are losing themselves rather than innovating so to speak.

I think JRPGs continue to have the audience they have always had, and probably a bigger one than ever before in absolute terms, but the number of customers reached has not been constantly expanding which to many seems like a failure where success is seen as growth and expansion as opposed to catering to the same, stable demographic which I think JRPGs do for the most part.

By the same token I figure that if some game develeopers wanted to go back to old school type play with new technology/graphics, say someone deciding to resurrect "Wizardry", singe player "Ultima", or "Might and Magic" (prior to that "Heroes Of Might And Magic" series) they would find a dedicated, consistant, audience. However it would not be the kind of success big game producers are aiming for. The idea being that the lower the common human denominator you can aim at, the more money you can potentially make.

So far Bioware has managed to put out a couple of games that seem to walk the fence between old school and new school fairly well, but I think they misunderstand some of their own success, while at the same time criticizing those who are content with a stable niche market and fanbase.


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As far as moral desicians go, well I will simply say that I don't think we're liable to see the kind of desician making and such people want to see in RPG games until society grows up a bit more, and can drop a lot of the political BS.

For example, a lot of very good points can be made in defense of taking slaves and such at a low tech level. The choice being in many cases between putting everyone to the sword, or enslavinng the survivors or whatever. However you start inserting that into a game in anything less than a modern, politically correct, entirely black and white fashion and people are going to freak out to a point that most game developers aren't willing to risk it no matter how many units they move.

Just imagine a reaction to a game based around say "Gor" with the player in an equivilent role to a Lord Of Ar (arguably the good guys). Even if you insert enough "earth mentality" into the game to cast doubts on the slave system, the idea of someone being able to rule/conquer that way and take slaves while still being good and honorable (as opposed to a demonic, puppy kicking jerk) is too much.

Thus moral desicians in games are going to remain totally good or totally evil. Not only is it easy to track, but the stereotypes also prevent "misunderstandings". We're a long way from a game that can properly allow one to portray some of the "anti-heroes" and "dark heroes" in fantasy properly in anything resembling a sandbox RPG format. I don't even know if something like that could be tracked, but even if it can it's not just a question of implementing it, but also reaction. When a game industry is unwilling to defend simple things like violent content in opposition to guys like Michael Atkinson, I can't see them developing things that are going to be just as touchy, if not more so.
Thank you for saving me the hassle of typing that up myself. You should forward that in an email reply to Mr Bioware and see what he says :p :)