BioWare Co-Founder Accuses JRPGs of Stagnation

[elricik]

While I do enjoy my Final fantasy and Persona, I have to admit he's largely correct.

The reason why Bioware is doing so great, is because of how great and different their games are. And I hate to say it, but when it comes to game play with Bioware's games, I wouldn't mind if it was the same thing over and over again, as long as they gave me choice in the game. I can get over crappy game play (not that Bioware has ever made a game with crappy game play) as long as the story is good, in fact that's why I stuck with so many JRPGs. But when you add the ability to make major story changing decisions in the game, the story gets really good, because you feel like its your own personal experience, and sometimes it is. I guess what I'm saying is, I love choice in games, that's why I love all of Bioware's games (even the Sonic RPG on the DS, although that one didn't have much choice).

 

[Byers]

Six threads of "I agree" and Final Fantasy fans patting each other on the back for enjoying interactive anime games.
Most pointless thread so far.

 

[Jenx]

While this is, intentionally or not, hilarious WHO said it....the not so funny part is that it's true.

 

[boholikeu]

I start to warm up to western developers until they start spewing hate-speech like this.

They have their own conventions to rely on, and frankly I'm just fine with JRPGs repackaging the same thing if IT WORKS.

I'll play a western RPG if I want zero narrative and way too many distractions with no depth.

I'll play a JRPG if I want a fucking coherent narrative that someone put some thought into more than "elves don't like dwarves, and make that lady not wear clothes."

Western RPG narratives are just as deep as JRPG narratives, if not more so. The difference is that JRPGs typically "tell" you their stories whereas Western RPGs will make you uncover the story for yourself.

 

[Doug]

Six threads of "I agree" and Final Fantasy fans patting each other on the back for enjoying interactive anime games.
Most pointless thread so far.

You also forgot the JRPG fanboys going "So?! WE LIKE IT LIKE THIS!" Though interactive anime does sound about right, especially as it seems to share the creepy obsession with young children.

 

[Chesterfield Snapdragon McFisticuffs]

Didn't Final Fantasy XII have some kind of innovative feature and there was huge fan backlash? It's not so much that they don't want to innovate as the fans wouldn't want them to, and it's not like they're trying to market as much to the western audience as the native audience. If Bioware suddenly went all JRPG on us everyone would rage, so why should JRPG's have to morph to suit our tastes?

 

[JediMB]

Didn't Final Fantasy XII have some kind of innovative feature and there was huge fan backlash? It's not so much that they don't want to innovate as the fans wouldn't want them to, and it's not like they're trying to market as much to the western audience as the native audience. If Bioware suddenly went all JRPG on us everyone would rage, so why should JRPG's have to morph to suit our tastes?

Personally I think Square Enix did a lot of things right with Final Fantasy XII, but they also did a lot of things wrong. The biggest problem with the game, to me, was that it seemed to lack focus, and was just... boring.

The characters were uninteresting, I didn't care much for the story, and the combat system was horrifically mind-numbing. I really liked the customization options, but the game pretty much played itself in battle. If they'd made the battle system more like (the PC version of) Dragon Age's, it might have kept my interest for longer.

Innovative doesn't equal good. Sometimes it's the opposite.

EDIT:
Note that I've absolutely loved Final Fantasy games in the past. Heck, I even enjoyed Final Fantasy III for the DS more than I enjoyed FFXII, despite that I'm usually not much for the truly old-school jRPGs. (And Chrono Trigger was magnificent.)

It's only in the past year and a half that I've drifted towards western RPGs, with KotOR being the only one I'd really played before, and that was because it was Star Wars.

 

[Vohn_exel]

I miss my old turnbased JRPG's. They were always about the STORY, not the gameplay. Where's my Legend of Dragoon and Skies of Arcadias? They're all action-rpg's now. No more turn based, and the characters are lumped together from the stereotype bin.

I tried playing Rogue Galaxy, and while there were bits that drew me in, it was mostly just "generic action rpg title 48." We need a return to the old turn based style, but a reinvention of it as well. Legend of Dragoon made some interesting changes to the old "select attack, press X, wait" system.

 

[crypt-creature]

He's certainly on to something, jrpgs used to be my favourite genre, but they just seem to same-y and use the old tropes and cliches a little to much.

Every genre has that problem to some extent, and they each break that cycle at different paces.

Still, a genre needs a basic formula otherwise there'd be no such thing as a genre. The ideas for said genre and bending the formula is where people need to experiment and take chances.

 

[Helba1984]

I miss my old turnbased JRPG's. They were always about the STORY, not the gameplay. Where's my Legend of Dragoon and Skies of Arcadias? They're all action-rpg's now. No more turn based, and the characters are lumped together from the stereotype bin.

I tried playing Rogue Galaxy, and while there were bits that drew me in, it was mostly just "generic action rpg title 48." We need a return to the old turn based style, but a reinvention of it as well. Legend of Dragoon made some interesting changes to the old "select attack, press X, wait" system.

Friend, grab yourself a copy of:

Xenosaga

Valkyrie Profile

Ar Tonelico

Cross Edge

FFXI


You'll thank me.

 

[Helba1984]

Six threads of "I agree" and Final Fantasy fans patting each other on the back for enjoying interactive anime games.
Most pointless thread so far.

You also forgot the JRPG fanboys going "So?! WE LIKE IT LIKE THIS!" Though interactive anime does sound about right, especially as it seems to share the creepy obsession with young children.

I won't even begin to delve into how associating an affinity with cartoons not aimed at children and games with deeper narratives being somehow linked to pedophilia is somehow logically or morally sound.

I will simply *headdesk* and pray to the gods for your swift and timely death.

 

[Helba1984]

Chrono Trigger had, what, 15 different endings? Yeah, no choice at all for the player. Just like the two fully optional party members in FFVII, with their respective side quests.

And it's not like WRPGs are so much better as far as dialogue or open-endedness are concerned. Yahtzee touched on both of those issues - in the end, Fallout 3 or Mass Effect (brilliant though they are) are just as linear, you just have a choice of 2-3 "good" and 2-3 "bad" endings, which are all totally exaggerated. You're either Saint Francis or Ghengis Khan. And yes, I know that Fallout 3 has a neutral karma level, but still.

There are a crapload of JRPG tropes that need to fucking go, that is true. Interaction with the environment is minimal, items have no physical manifestation, seven party members of which only three can fight, potion duty etc. But non-linearity just for non-linearity's sake is fairly retarded; Uncharted 2 is as linear as it gets, and if memory serves, it just won GOTY at the VGA's.

Let me put it like this. For all the linearity, you know what motivates Sephiroth. With Tenpenny... ehh, not so much (as Shamus Young pointed out). Also, I care more about Persona 4's characters than I do about Fallout 3's, with the possible exception of Reilly's Rangers. Seriously, for every tired, over-used JRPG trope, I can find an equivalent which has been used in WRPG's since the day of Wizardry and Ultima. I mean, come on, we're still running around with Elf Rangers in 2009, just saying.

Thank you. You have restored my faith in Western gamers.

 

[Helba1984]

Thank you. You have restored my faith in Western gamers.

Well, sorry to disappoint you, but I AM half Asian...

I don't mean it like that. I mean in the style of games some seem to prefer and the attitude that most of the time (you being my first exception) seems to come with it.

Also, Laughing Man FTW.

 

[FROGGEman2]

Fhhh, the fall of JRPGs? Yeah, and Square buying Eidos is just more proof that they're failing, right? JRPGs are stronger than ever, and I see nothing new in Dragon Age: Origins, anyway.

 

[Firia]

Having read most of Page 1 (and nothing between there and now), I suspect Biowares man was speaking generally. Not targeting Square-Enix specificly, in comparison to its own company. I suspect, he was refering to japans more successful jrpg formula (and lets face it; japan sees many more JRPGs than America).

Final Fantasy has always been kind of a benchmark game that inspired playstyles for games. For a long while, there were nothing by turn based rpgs. Then 3D models used in FF7, and suddenly the JRPG market was flooded with that form of RPG. Now Kingdom Hearts has inspired a more direct 3rd person real-time combat that's beginning to be seen in many a jrpg (White Knight, FF13+, uh, KH2. ;3).

Compare that to Biowares topdown rpgs, Oblivion/Fallout- hell, even Boarderlands (voice acting... ugh). JRPGs down evolve very much as a concept, and there are plenty of imitators that want to cash in on those that have succeeded. There are a few risk takers, but there are many more ready to take what has been successful and expand on that model.

Still though, someone said on pg1;

As long as the target audience of the JRPG is happy with the formula, why change it?

Which is a good point too. If something really works well for you, are you going to be very quick to change it? People do enjoy all models of JRPG that have come to pass. They have merit.