BioWare Co-Founder Accuses JRPGs of Stagnation

[Frank_Sinatra_]

God, like BioWare has any room to talk. Sure, each of their games has its own unique features, but one could make a very convincing argument that Mass Effect and Dragon Age are basically just reskinned versions of KOTOR. Compare that with, say, the differences present in some Square Enix RPGS (Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, and The World Ends With You all have incredibly different playstyles), and Zeschuk's statement just seems to make a little less impact.

Damn it, you took what I was going to say.

I could see his argument working for the stagnation of FF, but JRPG's as a whole? No.

 

[boholikeu]

I couldn't put my finger on it as a child, but looking back now, I see what it was... Western games in those days hyper focused on dungeon crawling, I personally dislike First Person View and, especially in Ultima's case, I had the same problems as I did with Oblivion, enemies that level with the player, making levels moot.

Talk about lack of innovation for "WRPG" when their games are built in about the same way as they were 25 years ago... I guess "JRPG" is not alone in stagnation.

Aside from Oblivion I can't think of another recent WRPG that does those things you mentioned. Looks like you just picked the wrong game.

 

[Legion]

I guess he has a problem with Coca-Cola as well. Same stagnating, unchanging formula. People who love it for that very -reason be DAMNED.

Fail in logic there.

I buy a coke for a small amount of money and drink it, it tastes good, but sadly runs out pretty soon and I want another one, I pay the same small price and get the same drink I like.

I buy a game for a fair amount of cash, it's fun to play, but here's the thing: It won't run out. I have paid for this game and can keep playing it because I like it. When I spend another hefty sum on a different game I expect something different.

If I wanted the formula/characters that I liked from the other game then I'd stick with it.

 

[JonahHex]

I enjoy WRPGs and JRPGs both (although I admit I do like WRPGs more) for different reasons, and different games. I pick and choose games out of both styles, in fact, I do this for every genre and style of game. Dragon Age didn't really appeal to me that much in the end, so I uninstalled it. No fuss, no muss, no hard feelings. It doesn't matter where it comes from, how it is styled and what design philosophy drives it, a good game is a good game.

By the same token I figure that if some game develeopers wanted to go back to old school type play with new technology/graphics, say someone deciding to resurrect "Wizardry", singe player "Ultima", or "Might and Magic" (prior to that "Heroes Of Might And Magic" series) they would find a dedicated, consistant, audience. However it would not be the kind of success big game producers are aiming for. The idea being that the lower the common human denominator you can aim at, the more money you can potentially make.

I think it's pretty funny that these types of games - old school Western RPG dungeon crawlers - were and continue to be massively popular in Japan. Wizardry was so popular that there are a bunch of Japanese only sequels, and there was even a (terrible) anime series. The Etrian Odyssey games are a modern take on this.

Of course, these games have become somewhat unpopular in the West now, leading people to believe that Japanese people just hate Western RPGs completely.

Okay, I'm not trying to be mean to you here at all, because I liked your post. Just want to mention though that, being an older gamer that has loved RPGs for a LONG time, I never liked Wizardry, Ultima or Might & Magic. I couldn't put my finger on it as a child, but looking back now, I see what it was... Western games in those days hyper focused on dungeon crawling, I personally dislike First Person View and, especially in Ultima's case, I had the same problems as I did with Oblivion, enemies that level with the player, making levels moot.

This is an example of what I'm talking about, I guess. Also, to be pedantic, Ultima didn't have this feature, not sure what you're talking about? Ultima 7 and Serpent Isle had very simplified combat though, because they were styled more as adventure games. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?

Anyway, the guy's point is still accurate. There is a strong, or at least vocal, contingent of Western RPG fans that hate the post Baldur's Gate period. Check out http://www.heroicfantasygames.com/ The game that guy made, Knights of the Chalice, is a love letter to early 90s PC RPGs.

No matter what you do, no matter what you're into, someone is going to ***** and complain, but who cares? No big deal. I love Dungeon Crawl games, but I accept that a lot of people don't. I have a lot of other hobbies and interests, so as long as I get a new one every couple of years - The Devil Whiskey and Etrian Odyssey fit nicely for me, so I'm satisfied. (anyone know of any other recent ones?)

These comments from this BioWare exec do strike me as a little entitled, though...

 

[kelsyk]

I think that both WRPGs and JRPGs have stagnated somewhat. Both are using basically the same story telling style and techniques as 20 years ago. For example compare how the plot is told in Fallout 1 to how it is told in Mass Effect. Both use dialogue trees and text to give out the plot before sending you on a mission.

Neither has really evolved, beyond utlizing new technology to imrpove what they already have.

 

[Katana314]

Well, this is awkward.

I kinda hate most JRPGs for falling into a lot of boring cliches. Emo/perky (Nothing inbetween) main character using sword(s), prophetic woman involved, no women are ever evil/will betray you, etc. etc.
And yet I couldn't disagree more with this guy. I don't think western RPGs are boring, but there are PLENTY of problems in a game riddled with choice. Fallout 3 example; only one of the multiple endings really felt "right". The others were just your character smirking at being a jerkass. It even had the indignity to label your helping the President with his virus an "evil action". What if I agreed with his principles and thought he was doing the right thing?

JRPGs have a linear path for the same reason books and TV shows do. The writers are working towards some very specific ending in which everything ties together in a completely sober way. Everyone has some firm character definition, including the protagonist. When a scene ends a certain way, the main character decides to do something, there's a reason for that.

Believe it or not, I feel there's even a reason behind that "But thou must" decision prompt that comes up. Allowing for an alternate continuation of the story in which the main character decides not to go on an adventure would A. Ruin the plot, and B. require an absurd amount of extra content. But that decision needs to be there so the player feels like they're there. It's about the illusion of choice. If they answer no, then yeah, it's undeniably immersion-breaking to be asked again and again. But it also probably means, if the writer has been doing their job right, that the player just doesn't care about the characters and their situation. When you answer yes of your own will, it does sort of feel like it's you agreeing to help rather than being forced into a situation.

 

[Gindil]

I guess he has a problem with Coca-Cola as well. Same stagnating, unchanging formula. People who love it for that very -reason be DAMNED.

Fail in logic there.

I buy a coke for a small amount of money and drink it, it tastes good, but sadly runs out pretty soon and I want another one, I pay the same small price and get the same drink I like.

I buy a game for a fair amount of cash, it's fun to play, but here's the thing: It won't run out. I have paid for this game and can keep playing it because I like it. When I spend another hefty sum on a different game I expect something different.

If I wanted the formula/characters that I liked from the other game then I'd stick with it.

I'm not sure about the analogy used in this regard. The formula can be tweaked. Hence, why a series can have a few gameplay options that may make or break them. Ex: Parasite Eve. The first one was a tactical RPG/horror game. The second is more and action RPG game. Both are changing things up and creating new scenarios but they still belong under the same mythos. Same as RE. There will be a few things different but so long as you're hooked on that particular brand of storytelling, I believe it's done its job.

*opens up a Barq's*

 

[Woodsey]

With the stuff Bioware has put out, they have the right to say this.

They have to be careful though, another slip up or two, and they won't anymore.

What slip-ups?

 

[Bluttaube]

Skimmed through this thread but didn´t really find this mentioned:
I think with "stagnation" he didn´t mean technic, presentation, the type of combat, but rather how the actual storytelling is done. There is a huge gap between the actual gameplay including it´s game mechanic and the storytelling. Why, for example, have i blasted every enemy i can find (including bosses) to oblivion with my best spells in record time, when in the next cutscene the same character gets beaten up by the schoolyard bully and runs away crying?
That´s where they haven´t really involved.

 

[Grayjack]

Long post is long

You deserve a cookie.

Spoiler: Big cookie is big

 

[Fulbert]

"The fall of the JRPG in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a lack of progression. They kept delivering the same thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier, but it's still the same experience."

And this says the co-founder of a company that has been re-releasing Neverwinter Nights with new graphics and slightly different storylines for bloody years now.

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

At least you know what you're getting. There might be problems with derivative and generic games, and only buying games of this sort is a constant problem, but every so often you want something comfortable and relaxing, where you know how things work.

Also, innovation is experimentation, and experimentation ends in disaster the first few times. Sticking with the formula that works is more likely to result in profit over loss, so you stick with it.

 

[tom919]

It's fine that bioware have a few "touchstones" it's one company. JRPGs are made by loads of companies and their all the same. No new combat system, no new style, no going five minutes with out some japanese teen with a structually unsound hair cut popping up. It's one vs one hundred and the one is clearly alot more original. Essentially all and I mean all JRPGs are the illigitimate child of Final Fantasy.

 

[SilentHunter7]

WRPG's on the other hand are radically different as can be seen by contrasting Mass effect, Fable 2 and Fallout 3.

Really, because the three Western made games that your stating are not really all that different from each other. There about as different in relation to each other as say, FFXII, FFX, FFIV and they're from the same series of games!

*sigh*

Fine. I'll bite.

Are you seriously telling me that Mass Effect, Fable 2, and Fallout 3 are the same game?

A Sci-Fi Third Person Shooter, a casual high-fantasy hack-and-slash, and a post-apocalyptic survival FPS? The only similarity between them is that they have loot.

 

[GenHellspawn]

Hang on. An employee of Bioware accusing JRPG's of a lack of originality?

I am reminded of a certain quote regarding pots and kettles.

 

[sanzo]

Six threads of "I agree" and Final Fantasy fans patting each other on the back for enjoying interactive anime games.
Most pointless thread so far.

You also forgot the JRPG fanboys going "So?! WE LIKE IT LIKE THIS!" Though interactive anime does sound about right, especially as it seems to share the creepy obsession with young children.

Uhm... you do know most games are made for kids, right? that's why a majority of JRPGs have a Teen rating. Just because they're also enjoyed by adults doesn't mean there's anything pedophilic(sp?) about it

 

[Danpascooch]

With the stuff Bioware has put out, they have the right to say this.

They have to be careful though, another slip up or two, and they won't anymore.

What slip-ups?

I already answered this exact question, scroll up

 

[Chunko]

I really hope that was a picture of a girl.