Bioware: FF13 is not an RPG

[2fish]

As we will never agree on what makes a game a RPG or not I will simply list what I expect from my RPG games.
1. Choices that make a difference. If I tell the Princess to fuck off I expect an appropriate response
2. Character development, it could be the struggle to find yourself or even just trying to keep your humanity.
3. Story has to draw me in, a weak story really hurts RPG's
4. Combat must be functional
5. Character builds that actually seem to matter, if I make my mage a fire mage he had better damn well be better at fire magic than my jack of all trades mage.
6. Multiple ways to solve a problem, talk it out, stealth, or just bash in everyone?s head
7. Good NPC's and teammates see HK47, Garrus, Tali, Mad god from Oblivion, ect

Nice additions:
1. Character Customization, not needed but helps me feel closer to my character
2. Good Maps
3. The ability to be an evil bastard
4. Large amount of side quests
5. Enemies that level up with you so that the game never becomes too easy

Things to Avoid:
1. Lack of role playing aka no real power to the player to move events in the story, I hate being a pawn to the game gods in RPGs. If it doesn?t feel like I have a purpose why am I playing?
2. Life simulation, I am not playing the Sims
3. Annoying characters that you cannot avoid and have a grand total of 3 lines they say every 15 seconds.

I am sure I will think of more things later.

-2fish

 

[tycho0042]

Honestly the FF series has been slipping lately more and more with it's series. Somehow though erickson decided that customization is what makes an RPG? At least in my experience it's a true test of role playing when one can play ANOTHER character rather than play themselves and call it role playing. Rather than me being in yet another game making choices.
I'll admit that ME and DA games from them have been fun but god let's face it. ME I quite regularly call Gears of War the RPG. Dragon Age, well it's such a generic RPG as far as WRPG's are concerned I wonder why bother? Seriously, we've all played it before in various formats be it baldur's gate or whatever. Even those could be considered linear if you wanted to be so inclined. Travel to point A do as many side quests as you feel inclined to do, travel to point B rinse and repeat until at climax C.
I will admit that FF XIII is distressingly linear and it's customization is...limited but it still follows all the elements that make JRPG's what they are.
At least nobody's called the LoZ games RPG's yet...

 

[Baconmonster723]

However, one lacks the core element of an RPG. The player, assuming the role of a character in that universe. In Mass Effect you ASSUME CONTROL (sorry I had to at some point), of the Commander Shepard in that universe. You ARE Commander Shepard.

In FF XIII, however, you don't play the role of Lightning, Sazh, Snow, Vanille, Hope, or Fang (I don't think I forgot any :/ ). You are simply a puppeteer pulling strings. Their characters are set in stone as stock characters with zero control over any actions that the character performs throughout the story. Nothing the player does has any effect on the story beyond Game Over or Ultimately Victory.

Again, I apologize if I appeared to be flaming earlier. Not my intention.

But that is only the requirement for a PnP RPG. Video game RPGs are a different beast all together. Video game RPGs do not require this limitation. If it is adopted (as it has in say, Fallout 3, then good for them. If the devs prefer to tell the story through a fleshed out protagonist, like FFXIII, then that's another route that is available.

This is a really old and tiresome debate, but JRPGs (like FFXIII) are indeed RPGs. WRPGs like ME2 are also RPGs. Fuck this debate is annoying. Thank you douchebag Erickson for opening up a can of worms.

Respect for Bioware: -10 pts.

Agree to disagree. Like I said if that doesn't convince people I'm not gonna press the issue anymore. But I agree with rsacks the most right now. Honestly there are no RPGs in gaming right now. Simply because no game is capable of actually being a true RPG at this current point in time. Honestly, all "RPGs" are simply adventure games with true RPG elements. Without complete freedom in a video game there will be no True RPGs.

 

[Legion IV]

Bioware and Bethesda have greatly changed what I and many others expect from RPG's. I enjoy the fact that my choices affect the world around me and the fact that I can choose the path the story takes. The combat I expect to be involving and engaging and instantaneous. FF13 feels confusing, oblique, unintuitive and basically feels like it's telling to fuck off I can handle this at many points.

Its a diffrent style of RPG thats all. Also what are you saying? Oblivion and Fallout all have the same path to the end of the game. You never choose the path the story takes. Never.

 

[Rayansaki]

Saying FFXIII isn't an RPG because it lacks one of the popular features in RECENT RPG's is like saying Mass Effect is an interactive graphic novel because it features one of the genre's defining features. Good going Erickson.

But it isn't. Dragon Warrior 1&2 allowed me to change the name of the hero I controlled. Therefore, with that simple step, I assumed control of that character and played the role of that character. That simple step made it an RPG. In an RPG you don't just play the role of a character, you ARE the character. In FF XIII you aren't the characters, you hardly control them outside of moving and fighting. FF XIII is not an RPG because of this. Just because a game has a level up system and an inventory system doesn't make it an RPG.

So, because you character is called Fagballs instead of Cloud, the game is suddenly an RPG?

First off, this isn't debating whether FF VII is an RPG. This is debating whether FF XIII is an RPG. So don't compare two subjects that don't apply.

To answer your question, not specifically. For example. In Mass Effect you are Commander Shepard. You may choose his/her name but that may not change the fact that you are Commander Shepard to everyone you meet. The fact of the matter is you ARE the character. You don't control the character. You ARE the character. All you do is control a character in FF XIII. You don't fill the character's role, you simply control them from point a to point b.

So because I say Cloud instead of Lightning my argument is false?
I can also argue that all you do in ME is control the character. Sure, you can bang a different alien this time around, or have someone else die in the end but it is false pretenses of choice, and the game is still going from A to B just as much as FFXIII (and flame me all you want but, it is JUST AS LINEAR)

If you feel I'm flaming you I apologize, it wasn't my intention. I'm just trying to prove a point. Let's just compare ME 2 and FF XIII, if this argument doesn't convince you, I'll leave it be, it's not my intention for us to walk away from this angry at each other.

ME 2
-LVL up system
-Limited, but existant inventory system.
-Party format for combat
-Skill to use in combat
-Ability to lvl up skills
-Stats are limited to damage, shields, and health.

FF XIII
- LVL up system
- Inventory System
- Party format for combat
- Skill use in combat
- Ability to lvl up skills
- Usual stats of magic, str, con, etc.

As you see both share these elements. Normally I would jump all over the fact that these games are RPGs.

However, one lacks the core element of an RPG. The player, assuming the role of a character in that universe. In Mass Effect you ASSUME CONTROL (sorry I had to at some point), of the Commander Shepard in that universe. You ARE Commander Shepard.

In FF XIII, however, you don't play the role of Lightning, Sazh, Snow, Vanille, Hope, or Fang (I don't think I forgot any :/ ). You are simply a puppeteer pulling strings. Their characters are set in stone as stock characters with zero control over any actions that the character performs throughout the story. Nothing the player does has any effect on the story beyond Game Over or Ultimately Victory.

Again, I apologize if I appeared to be flaming earlier. Not my intention.

No flaming, just thought you would flame me for saying Mass Effect is as linear as FFXIII (which in my opinion it is. Character progression isn't linear, the game is.)

But really, because out of several core elements of RPGs, one is missing, then it isn't an RPG anymore? It has linear character progression. 10 years ago, one would say turn based combat was a core element of RPG. JRPGs evolved with that premise, and FFXIII is a modern example, and WRPGs evolved differently, with Mass Effect being a modern example, but they all have the same roots.

And really, the branching character progression doesn't really mean you are the character. Say you are given a limited set of options, say 3: Kill, torture, leave. But if you were controlling the character on reality, you would chose "help". On FFXIII you have only 1 option: Kill. You would still chose "help", but in both cases you can't. Until you are given limitless choice in character progression, you can never say you really control the character.

 

[Conman94]

Damn straight those pieces of crap aren't RPGs. THIS: http://xbradtc.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/rpg7a6dm.jpg is an RPG.

On topic, Bioware should shut their mouths, because those who live in glass nerd houses are not to throw stones.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

*snip*

I have to agree with you Derp. The "You're playing a pre-built role" defense is bullshit.

But this does nothing to hurt my "It's about stats" stance.

Except for the name for the genre itself. Role Playing Game. Nowhere in that title does it refer to statistics, instead it refers to playing a role, probably of the main character. And by 'playing the role' it presumably means making choices outside of combat, something which FF 13 doesn't let you do.

You play the role in combat. They weren't talking about role playing in the sense that you are, but when RPGs started out, there weren't a lot of games like them, with deep combat mechanics. Most were one trick ponies, with one way to defeat enemies.

How precisely is this different from any other game then? In pretty much all genres you play the role in combat, be it athletic swordsman or space marine super-soldier. Why does it get called role-playing just because there are big numbers attached to the role you play in combat?

As we will never agree on what makes a game a RPG or not I will simply list what I expect from my RPG games.
1. Choices that make a difference. If I tell the Princess to fuck off I expect an appropriate response
2. Character development, it could be the struggle to find yourself or even just trying to keep your humanity.
3. Story has to draw me in, a weak story really hurts RPG's
4. Combat must be functional
5. Character builds that actually seem to matter, if I make my mage a fire mage he had better damn well be better at fire magic than my jack of all trades mage.
6. Multiple ways to solve a problem, talk it out, stealth, or just bash in everyone?s head
7. Good NPC's and teammates see HK47, Garrus, Tali, Mad god from Oblivion, ect

Nice additions:
1. Character Customization, not needed but helps me feel closer to my character
2. Good Maps
3. The ability to be an evil bastard
4. Large amount of side quests
5. Enemies that level up with you so that the game never becomes too easy

Things to Avoid:
1. Lack of role playing aka no real power to the player to move events in the story, I hate being a pawn to the game gods in RPGs. If it doesn?t feel like I have a purpose why am I playing?
2. Life simulation, I am not playing the Sims
3. Annoying characters that you cannot avoid and have a grand total of 3 lines they say every 15 seconds.

I am sure I will think of more things later.

-2fish

I think this is a good description for RPGs to work by.

 

[Fritzvalt]

http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/8006/bioware-you-can-put-a-j-in-front-of-it-but-final-fantasy-13-isnt-an-rpg

Bioware's Daniel Erickson:
Well, before I address the main point I just want to take a slightly more controversial route: You can put a 'J' in front of it, but it's not an RPG. You don't make any choices, you don't create a character, you don't live your character... I don't know what those are - adventure games maybe? But they're not RPG's."

I tend to agree but that's my opinion.

Wasn't it the Japanese who came UP with the first RPG's? (video game wise)

Rogue, Ultima, Akalabeth. The Japanese did not invent the genre, but they did go a long way in popularizing it. Especially on the consoles.

 

[MatParker116]

Bioware and Bethesda have greatly changed what I and many others expect from RPG's. I enjoy the fact that my choices affect the world around me and the fact that I can choose the path the story takes. The combat I expect to be involving and engaging and instantaneous. FF13 feels confusing, oblique, unintuitive and basically feels like it's telling to fuck off I can handle this at many points.

Its a diffrent style of RPG thats all. Also what are you saying? Oblivion and Fallout all have the same path to the end of the game. You never choose the path the story takes. Never.

there are ways trust me for example I've never been to GNR.

 

[Abedeus]

Isn't it the same case with Diablo? All the characters you can play with are already created and there are no choices to be made by the players. But it's still considered an RPG. Same with Zelda.

I don't know... I always considered a game an RPG as long as you can level up at your own pace, have an inventory stuffed full of objects, and a reasonably open world to explore. And maybe armor you can switch around that changes the way you look.

Hell no. Neither Diablo nor Zelda are actually role playing games. Especially not Zelda, who the hell thinks Zelda is an RPG? When did I miss a Zelda with 99 levels of experience, loot and hundreds of enemies you beat with magic, in teams of 4 or more, fighting in turns?

To be fair neither is Mass Effect. Mass Effect 2 is a JRPG in disguise.

What's not an RPG about Mass Effect (bar the combat)?

It's a controversial statement, right? I knew that. Especially with the amount of Bioware fans on these forums. But if anyone from Bioware can trash another game to promote their own (game style) than i can say something too and perhaps make people think about what the hell both of us are talking about. Since when is Bioware's definition of choice and creating a character a hallmark of RPG's anyway? And what's this nonsense about living your characters?

I wanted Shepard to have a gay romance with that Jacob guy. But no. Bioware decided that it doesn't fit into their vision of Shepard. So there's your choice. In the end its all about Bioware and not player choice. So it's really unfair to trash another game on that basis.

Mass Effect is an RPG/TPS (Third Person Shooter) hybrid. It has about as much RPG as TPS.

Also, for a gay relationship, there has to be at least a pair of gay characters. Jacob is not gay. Neither is any of the aliens. Hard to expect that anyone will turn homosexual just for Shepard.

Then again, some of the good jRPGs allow you to roleplay a character. For instance, in most of the Persona games, YOU make the choice. In Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor, you even get 4 different choices as how to handle

Spoiler

God's ordeal upon mankind

You can either be the "good" guy and defeat evil demons, you can join demons against the person in spoilers, you can stay neutral and just eliminate all demons and banish them from Earth... or you could be a coward and just run for it. And everyone dies, just like in every Persona if you make the wrong choice at the wrong time.

 

[OmegaXzors]

As a fan of RPG's in general, I think all of your brains are linear. Final Fantasy XIII is an RPG. You can sit here and complain and all that, but it doesn't change a fact.

Not to mention, Square was making RPG's since Bioware had their thumbs up their ass. I don't know about you all, but I think Mass Effect 1 was boring. Mass Effect 2 was hardly any better.

EDIT: to add above,

I'm sure most people would agree that Diablo is a dungeon crawler and Zelda is an adventure game.

 

[Rayansaki]

Bioware and Bethesda have greatly changed what I and many others expect from RPG's. I enjoy the fact that my choices affect the world around me and the fact that I can choose the path the story takes. The combat I expect to be involving and engaging and instantaneous. FF13 feels confusing, oblique, unintuitive and basically feels like it's telling to fuck off I can handle this at many points.

Its a diffrent style of RPG thats all. Also what are you saying? Oblivion and Fallout all have the same path to the end of the game. You never choose the path the story takes. Never.

Yes you can.

Fallout 3 has 5 keypoints in the story where you have to go to progress. The vault where you meet your father, rivet city where you meet your father for the 2nd time, the vault where the geck is, the enclave base, and the final moment at the rotunda. How you get to either point and the outcome are chosen by you (within a limited number of options, like every game).

Tell me the name of an RPG where you have more influence in the outcome of game as in Fallout 3.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

*snip*

I have to agree with you Derp. The "You're playing a pre-built role" defense is bullshit.

But this does nothing to hurt my "It's about stats" stance.

Except for the name for the genre itself. Role Playing Game. Nowhere in that title does it refer to statistics, instead it refers to playing a role, probably of the main character. And by 'playing the role' it presumably means making choices outside of combat, something which FF 13 doesn't let you do.

You play the role in combat. They weren't talking about role playing in the sense that you are, but when RPGs started out, there weren't a lot of games like them, with deep combat mechanics. Most were one trick ponies, with one way to defeat enemies.

How precisely is this different from any other game then? In pretty much all genres you play the role in combat, be it athletic swordsman or space marine super-soldier. Why does it get called role-playing just because there are big numbers attached to the role you play in combat?

I SAID WHEN THEY STARTED OUT! This was before the FPS existed. This was before Wolfenstein. This is when games were pretty much...well. Arcade-y. They didn't really have many genres, then. And you made the CHOICES in combat. You had yer precious CHOICES in the combat. Most games then gave you one way to defeat each enemy. You role played in combat.

 

[Ralen-Sharr]

When I read the title of this thread, I knew there would be the FF fans and bioware fans screaming at each other. I didn't expect it to go quite as far as some posts have.

For the record, I really don't like FF games. I don't want to get into the specifics because it always ends with some FF fan telling me that I don't really dislike the game for whatever reason and that I should try them again. Not happening.

I think the JRPG title and WRPG title do a good job of separating them and letting people know what to expect. Mass Effect 2 didn't have a whole lot of RPG elements IMO, but it was still a good game. Mass Effect 1 was more RPG than the second. Dragon Age is an RPG game, but not quite as open as Oblivion and Fallout 3. The ability to ignore the world and play the role of some guy that gets his kicks collecting rusty cans scattered across the landscape or an elf that likes to put on a mask and murder town guards for fun. Those kind of things are what make a true RPG to me.

 

[Devour]

Neither Dragon Age Origins nor Mass Effect are RPGs. They're merely stat up games with "moral choices".

What a twattish statement.

Note that I hated FF13, but Bioware games are just as non-RPG as FF ones are.

 

[wolf thing]

Saying FFXIII isn't an RPG because it lacks one of the popular features in RECENT RPG's is like saying Mass Effect is an interactive graphic novel because it features one of the genre's defining features. Good going Erickson.

it laks any form of role playing. you play as a pesific character and have no input in what happen

 

[Zero=Interrupt]

Erickson's pubicly trash-talking another game in hopes of driving traffic to his own product, and that's it. He has no idea of what makes a good RPG or even a good game, and his products are evidence of that. He probably doesn't even own a 20-sided die.

Square-Enix is laughing at him and his poorly art-directed, sloppily designed, badly-written linear game plots all the way to the freaking bank.

 

[tycho0042]

Hell no. Neither Diablo nor Zelda are actually role playing games. Especially not Zelda, who the hell thinks Zelda is an RPG? When did I miss a Zelda with 99 levels of experience, loot and hundreds of enemies you beat with magic, in teams of 4 or more, fighting in turns?

I think that was my fault with the LoZ remark, but I disagree that diablo isn't an RPG just because you use a mouse to move instead of a D-pad dosen't make it less of an RPG. It's got most of the same elements that most RPG's have. Just because you play a single character in diablo dosen't detract from it being an RPG or does the first Dragon Quest/Warrior not count as an RPG?