Bioware: FF13 is not an RPG

[Rayansaki]

Tell me the name of an RPG where you have more influence in the outcome of game as in Fallout 3.

Since there are only two possible outcomes in Fallout 3 I'm going to say many. Specifically, Star Ocean 2 has what, 50 endings, various choices in recruitable characters, a choice for which main character to follow and choices as in which Private Actions to participate, as well as the choices you make within them (as they affect the outcome of the game)...

Star Ocean 2 wins.

But don't get me wrong, I've played and love Fallout 3(logged hundreds of hours in that game and could have obtained two Platinum trophies if that was possible).

Actually there are over 200 endings for Fallout 3

?
Be a douche and poison the water, or don't. That's the only two I know of.

Having different endings is kind of pointless when you had no affect in the world and progress. On Fallout 3 you see action->consequence the whole game. You blow up a town and there's a major change in the world geography and people's reaction to you.

And Star Ocean 2 endings only depend on the emotion level between characters. So if you consider 50 endings for the 50 cinematics you get in the end of the game, then you must also consider Fallout 3 to have over 100 endings because of the video segments being different depending on the effect you had on the world.

 

[Sporky111]

I tend to classify Role-Playing Games as 'any game in which I have stats which increase through experience, granting me more power/speed/etc'

Thus Halo is not an RPG, since all of my stats remain exactly the same throughout, but Final Fantasy (I'm not going to be playing XIII, but VI, VII, VIII, IX and XII) are RPGs.

I know my definition won't exactly be universal, but really, Bioware's games don't let me fully roleplay either. If I wanted to fully roleplay in any game I'd be a lovable rogue, ostensibly out for himself but getting into scrapes to help people he's met, and getting paid wouldn't lose me experience points. (Now I'm looking squarely at you Bioware. Who decided that nice guys never get paid huh?)

In Bioware games you play as a True Neutral, a Chaotic Evil, or a Lawful Good, there are no other options, so where exactly is my role-playing choice for Chaotic Good? And why couldn't I join the Blue Sun mercenaries if I wanted to?

Harp on about character creation all you like Bioware, but Fallout 3 has let me in three days get closer to the sort of character I want than your games did in several weeks of playthroughs.

Have you played Dragon Age, by any chance? Or are you just generalizing based on Mass Effect like all the other popular kids seem to be doing?

In my opinion, Dragon Age is one of the best modern examples of a "Role Playing Game" that is true to its name. You get to choose an origin story, and build a character from there. There is no morality bar or points, just choices. Usually you can pick to be selfish, helpful, humorous, apathetic, etc from dialogue choices. You can be a rogue, mage or warrior; elf, human or dwarf. The character doesn't talk in the dialogue sections, but you're still choosing what to say, so it feels more like you're actually playing that character.

I do see your point, in the future RPGs need to be less about "this option leads to this outcome, but so does this one, unless you did that thing and said those words four hours ago" and be literally open to make your own character. That's why I enjoyed Fable 2, you could make a fat decadent noble, or a brutal assassin, or a bartender supporting his family, etc.

 

[tycho0042]

Ever heard of the expression "the journey is more important than the destination"? A game might have a fixed destination, but in an RPG's case the more freedom you have on your journey to that destination, the better. Otherwise, you're just watching a movie intersected by interactive combat bits. Being free to make your own choices is one of the main things that define an RPG. Even a tabletop RPG is typically considered a horrible game if the GM forces all the characters down one linear road on the way to their objective.

I counter that with my own: "Your mileage may vary." Some of us hold preference to games that tell a story as though you were reading a novel, other fancy a sense of freedom. This is not instantaneously discredit JRPGs as RPGs simply because they use a different avenue to accomplish the identical result. Furthermore, the aspect of choice, even in games such as Mass Effect, is an illusion. You can establish Shepard as the honorable soldier, the jerk or something in between however your decisions ultimately have no basis on the plot, nor how the game will progress. I can punch the reporter in the Presidium in one file and politely nod the next, the game is in no way altered, Shepard is not loathed by reporters for years to come. It is simply implicated for amusement.

Another more serious example, kill Wrex or not. The game does not change with any significance if you decide to do this and in Mass Effect 2, he is regulated to a pathetic cameo, further diminishing any potential development of choice it could have possessed.

You may be allotted choice and therefore availability to scenes you would not otherwise have access to, however the journey is still ultimately following a predetermine course. I will cede for the average gamer, Mass Effect has significantly higher replay value because of choice than a Final Fantasy game. That, however does not alter either as a Role-playing game. You still play a role, you still develop your character(s), you have a preset purpose, you discover the story through progression, you interact with your party. It all amounts to the same, albeit with a different route.

In ME, I can romance Ashley or Liara as a male Shepard, however the romance is weak. In FFX, I have Tidus and Yuna, however the romance is focused upon heavily and developed thoroughly. Perhaps choice is not always a benefit, however this is strictly opinion based on my part.

the question here is the ROLE-element. do you actually feel that youre tidus while playing the game? cause thats the point of the rpg, getting to feel youre the characters. now, if you got no way to sway tidus towards YOUR decisions (even if it doesnt make a difference in the end, cause tidus wouldve still loved yuna), youre not playing a role, youre watching a play. and thats what FF games have been reduced to: watching a play. is this bad? no, cause its a hell of a good play, but its no rpg.

take FF7: you could do lots of clouds dialogue choices, you could decide which 2 party members you wanted to bring (which gave unique dialogue), you could move wherever you wanted in a free roaming world. here your choices made slight changes in the outcome of the game, though it all ended with a fight with "you know who" anyway. THIS was an RPG.

walking down a beautiful looking path with preset dialogue, is not an rpg. it may be good and fun to watch, but its not an rpg.

Hurr's point wasn't that FF VII wasn't an RPG but that XIII wasn't one. precisely because there's so few choices. edit; dammit nevermind Misread your post

 

[Lamppenkeyboard]

Yeah they definitely aren't RPGs. I like final fantasy though.

 

[ObsessiveSketch]

-snip-

Rude comments aside the tabletop RPG games I've played the writers even say that the point of role playing is to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Role playing is about not what I think "I" would do but what I think my character would do. I never said that playing any role makes it an RPG but you're too stuck in your jackassery to see that

Right, but FF doesn't offer you that, so...
I just think that 'adventure game' is more suitable for 'JRPGs' because there isn't any difference between them and generic Western adventure game. Just different stylistic choices. I think inherently, we have the same opinion. Just focused on different polarizations XD;

 

[Painted Battleship]

We've always been able to create a character and send him or her on fantastic adventures, but until some beardy men put some rules to paper it was known as 'playing pretend'. So, you know, statistics 'n stuff are important.

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

Ever heard of the expression "the journey is more important than the destination"? A game might have a fixed destination, but in an RPG's case the more freedom you have on your journey to that destination, the better. Otherwise, you're just watching a movie intersected by interactive combat bits. Being free to make your own choices is one of the main things that define an RPG. Even a tabletop RPG is typically considered a horrible game if the GM forces all the characters down one linear road on the way to their objective.

I counter that with my own: "Your mileage may vary." Some of us hold preference to games that tell a story as though you were reading a novel, other fancy a sense of freedom. This is not instantaneously discredit JRPGs as RPGs simply because they use a different avenue to accomplish the identical result. Furthermore, the aspect of choice, even in games such as Mass Effect, is an illusion. You can establish Shepard as the honorable soldier, the jerk or something in between however your decisions ultimately have no basis on the plot, nor how the game will progress. I can punch the reporter in the Presidium in one file and politely nod the next, the game is in no way altered, Shepard is not loathed by reporters for years to come. It is simply implicated for amusement.

Another more serious example, kill Wrex or not. The game does not change with any significance if you decide to do this and in Mass Effect 2, he is regulated to a pathetic cameo, further diminishing any potential development of choice it could have possessed.

You may be allotted choice and therefore availability to scenes you would not otherwise have access to, however the journey is still ultimately following a predetermine course. I will cede for the average gamer, Mass Effect has significantly higher replay value because of choice than a Final Fantasy game. That, however does not alter either as a Role-playing game. You still play a role, you still develop your character(s), you have a preset purpose, you discover the story through progression, you interact with your party. It all amounts to the same, albeit with a different route.

In ME, I can romance Ashley or Liara as a male Shepard, however the romance is weak. In FFX, I have Tidus and Yuna, however the romance is focused upon heavily and developed thoroughly. Perhaps choice is not always a benefit, however this is strictly opinion based on my part.

Ah, but the choices you make in Mass Effect do change the story. Sure, most choices do so in utterly insignificant ways, but they most certainly do have a noticeable effect. As I mentioned in another post, CRPGs aren't anywhere near the level of choice and freedom that traditional RPGs have, but at least they're making an effort, which is more than can be said about Final Fantasy 13.

For the rest of your argument, I get the feeling you're misreading my intention. I don't mean to say that ME2 is a better game than FF13 in any way. Sure, I enjoyed it more, but that's just my opinion. I'm not trying to make a judgment of value here, either way. I'm merely supporting the statement that FF13 isn't a proper RPG. Even if FF13 was the best game in the world with the greatest writing ever (and, let's be honest, it's far from that), it still wouldn't be an RPG. In Final Fantasy you don't play a role, you're merely along for the ride while the characters play out their own roles. That doesn't mean that Me2 is an inferior game, just like choose-your-own-adventure books aren't automatically superior to traditional books just because they have more choice.

 

[tycho0042]

-snip-

Rude comments aside the tabletop RPG games I've played the writers even say that the point of role playing is to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Role playing is about not what I think "I" would do but what I think my character would do. I never said that playing any role makes it an RPG but you're too stuck in your jackassery to see that

Right, but FF doesn't offer you that, so...
I just think that 'adventure game' is more suitable for 'JRPGs' because there isn't any difference between them and generic Western adventure game. Just different stylistic choices. I think inherently, we have the same opinion. Just focused on different polarizations XD;

I still think of them as RPG's but probably FF games have more in common with graphic novels with mini games than bioware's rpg's. When I think of Adventure games I think of Zelda

 

[Stabby Joe]

I personally feel Zelda is more of an RPG than FF13 even though it's not.

Whether or not you agree with Bioware, the fact of the matter is FF13 is less of an RPG than prior FF games.

 

[Iron Lightning]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Yeah, FFXIII has more in common with adventure games than RPGs. Therefore its proper genre is adventure rather then RPG, and that's fine, honestly the world could use a few more half-decent adventure games.

 

[Omnific One]

I never thought I'd say it, but I love Bioware even more now. No, FF13 is in no way an RPG. Far Cry 2 is more of an RPG.

 

[ObsessiveSketch]

-snip-

Rude comments aside the tabletop RPG games I've played the writers even say that the point of role playing is to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Role playing is about not what I think "I" would do but what I think my character would do. I never said that playing any role makes it an RPG but you're too stuck in your jackassery to see that

Right, but FF doesn't offer you that, so...
I just think that 'adventure game' is more suitable for 'JRPGs' because there isn't any difference between them and generic Western adventure game. Just different stylistic choices. I think inherently, we have the same opinion. Just focused on different polarizations XD;

I still think of them as RPG's but probably FF games have more in common with graphic novels with mini games than bioware's rpg's. When I think of Adventure games I think of Zelda

Ohhh, so single player, real-time combat, and equipment based as opposed to stats? I could see that. Hmmm, but I still qualify RPGs as games that you can change based on, well, role-based decisions.

No matter how I look at it, T.B.A.G is the best label (and most epic idea EVAR) presented in this thread. XD

 

[cornmancer]

In an RPG you create a character and absorb yourself in them. In a JRPG you wheel them from one place to another and make a few little upgrade choices.

 

[cornmancer]

In an RPG you create a character and absorb yourself in them. In a JRPG you wheel them from one place to another and make a few little upgrade choices.

Not played Star Ocean have you.

No, no I have not. I was referring to more the general JRPG, FF and such, and the general WRPG, DA and FO3.

 

[Rayansaki]

Hm.. that's not quite correct. As stated your choices not only affect the outcome, but things like party member recruitment and the BIGGIE that no other RPG has done, to my knowledge: The way your party members react to each other in battle. Yes, it's that in depth.

Star Ocean 2 still wins.

Your choices also affect party member recruitment in Fallout 3, and I have no idea what you are talking about on the party member reaction in battle. (Admittedly, it's been a while)

 

[Doug]

Isn't it the same case with Diablo? All the characters you can play with are already created and there are no choices to be made by the players. But it's still considered an RPG. Same with Zelda.

I'm not sure about Diablo as I never played it - is there any character customization? Even levelling up control?

I don't know... I always considered a game an RPG as long as you can level up at your own pace, have an inventory stuffed full of objects, and a reasonably open world to explore. And maybe armor you can switch around that changes the way you look.

From what I've seen of JRPGs, you level up automatically without any control over how that occurs. Hence, I would still class them as adventure games myself - because your playing an adventure, your not playing a role in the adventure itself.

 

[Rayansaki]

Isn't it the same case with Diablo? All the characters you can play with are already created and there are no choices to be made by the players. But it's still considered an RPG. Same with Zelda.

I'm not sure about Diablo as I never played it - is there any character customization? Even levelling up control?

I don't know... I always considered a game an RPG as long as you can level up at your own pace, have an inventory stuffed full of objects, and a reasonably open world to explore. And maybe armor you can switch around that changes the way you look.

From what I've seen of JRPGs, you level up automatically without any control over how that occurs. Hence, I would still class them as adventure games myself - because your playing an adventure, your not playing a role in the adventure itself.

You don't level up automatically in FFXIII. Actually you don't level up at all, you just get experience points from combat and spend them levling up a specific role (or more)