Bioware...*sigh*

[4173]

Forgot to add this before, but when I chose a speech option in Baldur's Gate, that's what I fucking said. No guessing games, no random sarcasm or subservience.

 

[dolgion]

@Dexter111

Thanks for the suggestions! The article you included speaks to me a lot. That's one thing that I wanted to voice in this post. So Piranha Bytes have been working on games since Gothic 3? I loved the first two, not so much the third one. I'll look into these alternatives then.

 

[Rayansaki]

I don't know what you guys are talking about, Dragon Age 2 was the best game by bioware in recent years.

 

[w00tage]

Do me a favour..

Go back and play Baldurs Gate, KotOR and the original Neverwinter Nights.

Everyone fantasizes about things they played when they were younger and turns them into monolithic epic things which can never be superceded, but in my experience that's generally because were more easily impressed, not because the games were better.

In fact, go back and play a fighter in the original Baldur's Gate. Note how deep and tactical the combat is, certainly nothing like the action RPGs of today where you have to select abilities and click more than once in an entire fight.

I get what you're saying and I sort of agree with it at a basic level, but I think your analogy leaves a lot to be desired. A single fighter in Baldur's gate is just part of the 6 part team, plus there is the entire meta game of choosing the appropriate equipment, appropriate classes and level ups in different classes and spells. It's actually quite deep in terms of the amount of thinking and planning that goes into the game before you even begin a combat encounter.

The same is not true for Mass Effect 2, and certainly not for Dragon Age 2, which I actually find more disappointing since it's "supposed" to be more of a traditional RPG. Really, they have massively regressed from DA:O to DA:2, for example take character attributes:

In DA:2 you get 3 attribute points at each level up that you should be able to spread across something like 6 attributes, each attribute having a different derived outcome for your character. Sounds great, but in practice, each character class has to use equipment, which (surprisingly enough) is usually restricted to either a character class, or requires 2 out of those 6 attribute points in order to use. So, if you are a warrior, well I hope you enjoy putting all your points into STR and CON until you're almost done with the game, otherwise you will never be able to use most of the loot you find. Same goes for the other classes as well and their respective "class attributes". (Here's a fun idea - try building a blood mage in DA:2 and using HP as your mana pool - you can do it, so long as you're willing to restrict yourself to equipment with laughably low willpower requirements to use, which means generally stuff far below your level and taking half of the fun, ergo loot acquisition, out of the game)

This is just poor game design and I'm more than willing to bet it came about by a desire to cater for the lowest common denominator and the end result is a shallow system that is actually easier for a novice gamer to screw up if they aren't paying attention - for example, a younger friend of mine got almost to the end of the first act before he realized his warrior would never be able to dual wield in DA:2 because the appropriate weapons were restricted to an ability that he'll never posses, regardless of if his attributes met the requirements for the equipment.

Frankly, I'm not a fan of this at all. Bethesda/Obsidian managed to do a far better job with the SPECIAL system from Fallout in terms of making it more accessible yet still providing depth and while I don't know if we can compare sales across titles here as easily (ergo: I don't have the numbers in front of me), you'd be hard pressed to argue that FO:3 and FO:NV were anything but huge commercial successes.

Wow that sounds just like Dark Messiah. Never played but I watched the Let's Play on Chocolate Hammer and noted the same thing - the necessity for a certain number of skill points in an attribute before you could use a piece of gear essentially adds up to a level requirement for gear. Only you're making the player implement the level system by their choices (which can be wrong) instead of just putting it in the game and letting them play.

Disclaimer - I hate the very notion of leveling systems as implemented in today's MMOs, I think they've become poison to the games.

 

[mireko]

While I don't agree with your take on ME2, I do agree with you that Dragon Age 2 is superior to Origins.

I still liked the parts of the story that weren't Cerberus or Collectors (I even liked Miranda), most of the game is sidequests and loyalty missions which are still top-notch for the most part. I don't know if it was just hard to follow up ME1, but I didn't think anything in the main plot measured up to the awesomely Lovecraftian reveal of the Reapers.

Still a great game, mind you. I wouldn't have bothered playing through it three times otherwise.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Remember Bioware? Those guys made some of the modern classics of the RPG genre. Baldur's Gate, KotoR, Neverwinter Nights etc. What happened to them?

In another thread I read that people bitched about DA:O's old school combat approach, so logically they had to make the combat more action oriented. And people still *****, even more so. It's not that gamers are whiny primadonnas that can't be pleased.

Oh wait, yes they are. Exhibit A: You.

You know what? You're right, I'm whining. I'm demanding. I want games that really move things forward. In the very least, I expected Bioware to keep their promise of making an RPG that is in spirit the successor of BG2, but with the second game of the series, they pulled out of that promise instead of actually addressing the issues of DA:O. What I meant in the paragraph you quoted was that simply making the combat action-oriented didn't fix anything. They just thought "oh shit they don't like the old-school style. okay, we'll just make it anime" instead of thinking WHY the old-school combat wasn't well-received. That's why I'm doubting that Bioware has any real vision for the Dragon Age series that they work towards.

Then perhaps you should get on the Bioware forums and offer them some actual constructive criticism and perhaps some suggestions as to how they could improve the combat instead of unhelpful and rather childish whining.

I did offer suggestions, though they are unfortunately buried in the discussion here. Also, I am working on my own RPG.

For combat it would've been enough to just lift the complexity of DA:O's combat to the level of around BG2. Complexity not meaning that everything should be super hard to grasp, but to offer for a wider range of combat tactics, thus allowing more classes. BG2 obviously had a solid foundation in the D&D ruleset. It's not perfect, and Bioware should've IMO looked into taking its complexity/depth while removing all the stuff that just doesn't work well in CRPGs (like the one-spell per day thing. I didn't like that myself). The last thing they should've done was to make it all even simpler like they did. (If their goal truly was to create a spiritual successor for BG2)

Why are you telling me all this? I'm not Bioware. As I said, you'll want to get on Bioware's forums, not the Escapist, and voice all this. [sub]...in a mature and constructive manner I hope.[/sub]

 

[TilMorrow]

I thought there was a agreed concensus somewhere that said BioWare's DA2 IS NOT DA:O but mearly a side story that introduces a character that is to play an important role in DA's finale (as bioware are unlikely to make more than three games in a series... except for KOTOR 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 which is supposedly packed together as KOTORO and 8, 9 and 10 as potential expansions). Which kinda of explains why it wasn't as great as the first aside from the obvious money-grabbers explanation but is all the same not an excuse.

I should just say, BioWare makes good games, but they are human and humans are prone to f*** ups. Give them constructive critism and a good shoving and that'll get them back on the right path.

Kotor isn't a deep, hardcore RPG.

No its not a hardcore RPG, but it can be agrued it was deep in certain aspects of storytelling as well as a fun game.

It's morality/implications system became Mass Effect.

What morality system? It was more like do you want be a Sith or Jedi.

It's all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

When did they become Creepers- Oh I just realised they were dollar signs...

 

[Korten12]

They were forced by their Publisher JoWooD to "make Gothic 3 more like Oblivion/Morrowind" to appeal to the Mass crowd, they were also forced to Release it before it was done and when it was very buggy... I still haven't played it really xD

Actually, I did a review on the 3rd (never beat it but put a lot of time into it) and it was quite good. The community has released patches like it did for the 2nd game that fixes the bugs.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.205690-My-First-Review-Gothic-3-Possible-Spoilers

 

[Dragunai]

They all sell heroin to schoolchildren and kick beggars to death. I know this for a fact.

They make good games though.

Haha, high fives.

On Topic:

Bioware havent lost any edges. Dragon Age Origins was a work of Art and when they made DA2 they revamped the skills system (making it more fluid and easier to grasp whilst providing more options) before they revamped the combat engine to, again, make it more fluid and immersive over the 1st games, click a, watch fight, approach.

Mass Effect 1 was an ... OK game (I found it to be very cluttered and awkward compared to 2 but it was a launch title and so obviously 2 is gonna supercede it) and when I played Mass Effect 2 I loved it even more because again they looked at the players discomfort with the old "find a thousand guns / equipment units, use 3" and instead just went, Heres a set number of guns and armour, upgrade as you sit fit. Which again streamlined a decent game and made it a lot easier to enjoy.

I wouldnt call Bioware submissive. I would praise them and worship them as a company who actually hears the voices of their disgruntled fanbase and does what it can to appease them as opposed to Bethseda who drops half finished games in our laps and says, go nuts... once you find the fan made patches.... and you know.... fix it yourself...

Or EA who just drop half finished buggy games that have a 50% chance of working (Much like activisons Black ops on PC) and ignore your objections to paying £40 for something that doesnt work.

I love bioware, I think they are probably THE best gaming company around and Yes I would say that on TV if asked. They make deep, well writen games with excellent characterisation and each time they sequel a series they improve on it based on fan opinion.

Roll on Mass effect 3 / Dragon Age 3
(and there is going to be a DA3 because the last time they introduced a character with one name its sequel showed up with an "Important save" option... just like Dragon age 2 did ^_^. Hooray for importing my lesbian hawk into DA3 haha)

 

[TikiShades]

You guys think Baulder's Gate was great? Try remembering Pong. Top-notch gameplay, thrilling musical score, immersive story... I mean, the characters felt so real, it was like I knew them personally; like they were sitting right next to me or something.[/nostalgia] ;3

On a less sarcastic note, what's wrong with finding the common denominator? They want as many people to enjoy the game as they can. Sure, chest-high walls and a basic RPG-element system are upsetting, but it's what more people want. Even if there's a lot of people who are more of a simplefolk who don't like to deeply-consider their characters and team on the other side of the argument, catering to us would mean a bigger loss of profit. And while you can say they're money-grubbing pigs, money is actually a necessity to making more of the games. Go figure, right?

Two of my biggest RPG-playing friends are actually more on their side of the argument. They'd continually get annoyed at me when we'd play Tales of Symphonia because I'd obsess on optimizing the party. I'd never have the required character in the party before the boss battle simply because by not doing so, the menu would open so I could change my team with the required character. By opening the menu, however, I could rearrange my equipment and Ex-Gems and stuff. I also did the same thing when we reached a new vendor with equipment; making sure to ration my money.

My friends, however, didn't seem to see the logic in optimizing the party. They just wanted to get back to playing. They didn't feel like going through all of the tactical thinking. And I know that I'm kind of alone on that issue with my friends; I'm the only one who tends to overanalyze.

I've never played Bauldur's Gate, but it sounds like there's a bit of analysis to do. Menu-diving isn't something that people want to do. Anything more than 4 levels of a skill is excessive. Sure, they might be angering their fans, but it's also intimidating to the non-fans who might have been interested if it weren't so complicated. Heck, I haven't touched Civilization since 3, because after seeing the gigantic poster for the sciences in the Civ 4 box, with a whole new list of terms and keywords, I don't feel like learning a whole new system for a game that might not end up appealing me. I would have wasted my time.

Those are my thoughts on the subject.

 

[SageRuffin]

correcct me if im wrong, but i swear new people that were hired by bioweare were making da2 for the most part, if not then i am wrong but i thought a semi different team was making it, yes they are part of bioware but that doesn't mean they have the same goals or anything, which yes that is semi heartbreaking/gamebreaking hwen teams don't have the same goals, but overall i do enjoy their most recent of games and i do think they are still semi strong, but i wiouldn't put it past the, even as a bioware semi fanboy, as for them to turn more towards the cod crowd more than anything, if i was a business man i would go where the money is, and with being how stingy and whatnot the elitist crowd is, that is nowhere near where the money is. so yeah, i can't really blame most companies that face that direction they are heading for.

I'm not 100% on this, but I think the same team who worked on ME2 also did the core development of DA2.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Imagine procedurally generated quests and entire game worlds.

I think Bethesda are going towards this with part of the quest system in Skyrim. There are the proper story quests and side quests but it also literally creates quests for you and checks where you have been before and sends you to a new place if it can result: neverending game lol

I'm kind of tired of the Dragon Age 2 hate its a slighlty above average game I keep feeling that it doesnt really deserve the attention although negative. It feels like a completely different type of game to origins maybe thats just me.

You guys think Baulder's Gate was great? Try remembering Pong. Top-notch gameplay, thrilling musical score, immersive story... I mean, the characters felt so real, it was like I knew them personally; like they were sitting right next to me or something.[/nostalgia] ;3

Baldur's Gate is an awesome game. I would play it over Dragon Age 2 anyday. I still have it on my pc so nostalgia doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

[Shadowfaze]

Bioware do seem to be deviating more to 'action rpg' than the classic style we know and love, but i really enjoyed ME2, and after getting used to fighting changes in DA2 (I replayed DAO to have an importable save, plus to get the platinum trophy) im thoroughly enjoying it so far.

 

[CleverCover]

Everyone knows LucasArts forced them to put out an unfinished game around when Episode Two game out to maximize profit. Obsidian makes buggy games, I don't argue that, but KoTOR2's bugs are more on LucasArts than them. The PC version has a Restoration Patch that includes most of the content that was cut out to meet the time demands.

Personally I enjoyed the game even without it, but I also don't see bugs as deal breakers. If I did I'd miss out on plenty of excellent games, for example the entire Bethesda catalog.

I have no idea what you mean by nine different people in ME2, I assume you're referring to the different squaddies? The characters in Mass Effect don't have half the depth as any of the main characters in KoTOR2, and the story in Mass Effect 2 is largely nonexistent.

I'm not going to get into a huge, nitpicky debate over it though. If it's not your thing, I'm not going to be able to change your mind. For me though, Obsidian are the only major developers still making excellent RPGs without dumbing them down to appeal to the mass market, and it's a damn shame they don't get more recognition.

Well, I meant you could have at least nine different Sheps, since I like to make up new stories for them and base their decisions in game on that. It actually does get confusing with all those people in their making up rules. Like My Spacer WarHero deleted the files on the Alliance Kasumi had while my Colonial Sole Survivor kept it.

Well, here's to being able to agree to disagree. I will swear up and down ME's characters were more interesting than KotOR2's until the cows come home, but I'm too lazy and I don't think either of us will care two days from now.

I do wonder about the OP's thoughts on the constant "do this and you get this in game" thing Bioware was pulling though....maybe that's where this distrust truly started.

 

[Togs]

The only thing wrong with DA2 was how rushed it was- in places its like what ME2 would of been if more of the RPG element had been kept (i.e. close to the best game ever) but most of time it falls flat on its face- that ending feels like it was cobbled together in less then a week.

Also I was genuinely shocked by how bad the writing is in places, especially with the character of Merrill who has such a critical lack of verisimillitude.