Bullying - how far can you go to defend from it?

[Octorok]

Don't think so, No biggie though. It's good discussion.

Er... yes it can.

Did he act right? Fuck yes.
Bunch of wannabe gang members on Mopeds..
Also, what exactly does this have to do with Games...?

Oh crap! Posted in the wrong forum! sorry...any way I can get it moved?

PM a moderator to shift it for you.

OT : His house was under attack from numerous armed and violent youths who presented an immediate threat to him, his family and his property, this following a long-term harassment and minor violence campaign against him and his family specifically.

Not only was he within his rights, I'm sad he didn't shoot some more of the little pricks.

NOTE : Not kill, that would be too far. I agree that the second shot was unnecessary and even these bastards don't deserve death, however I heartily support scaring them shitless with a little buckshot.

Plus - HE HAD TO FUCKING PAY THE FAMILIES??!! Are you fucking kidding me? His house was under attack from a group of armed and violent people who had spent a long time "bullying" him. That's a bullshit decision right there. None of the kids should have died, however there is no way in hell that their families deserve any compensation for this. He was defending his property and family, and if anybody should be fined it should be their families for doing sweet fuck all to stop these little shits.

 

[G-Force]

When it comes to the father's actions you have to think about the acts committed against his family.

1. His son was pushed off the road while riding his moped
2. The father's car door was opened while he was driving

These acts yielded very high risks of sever injury so when these same people arrive on the family's property wielding weapons then the father had every right to assume that they were hostile. The family has been assaulted multiple times so for all the father could assume was that the kids were running away to get more weapons or more help.

 

[Cyanin]

The thing is though, it may be seen as alright to shoot once, but this isn't an action hero, he's a father with a mental condition and a group of assholes.
His reaction wasn't right but it should've been expected. Like kicking a sleeping bear, understandably, it's probably going to attack, but it's not right for it do so. Those kids should've realised that when people are put under that pressure they will explode, and it's their own stupidity that put them in that situation.

 

[Leifur]

No problem, and sorry for being picky. Not realy one that reads very thuroughly myself but something about that one dragged my attention towards it.

 

[Kasawd]

Although I think the killshot was a tad unnecessary, I can, honestly, condone it. This had gone beyond bullying and became something extremely serious. It was the culminating result of a problem that needed to be dealt with(Like a bunch of people with obscured identites fucking these shits up with crowbars and beating their mopeds into dust) and wasn't.

This was an inevitability, I believe. These kids were obviously going to become a serious threat to the society and needed to be removed before they could fulfill it.

I may just be pre-disposed against these gang types, though. I have a close-knit family and would personally be the one to commit grievous bodily harm to anyone who constantly harassed my family. People have to be ready to accept the consequences.

That being said, I'm unsure about the actual concrete circumstances and can't really pass any legal opinion here.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Let's make the victim pay! That's the way to do it! Who cares that those assholes organized a fucking campaign against his family which almost ended up in them being potentially badly hurt! All that matters is that he killed one of the little shits who was not even a productive member of society.

 

[Nouw]

What gun was this?

Eh hm. Wait till they find out they play GTA4. Hopefully they don't.

 

[JoonaspEST]

Was it justified: Yes. If some guy is assaulted by some self-righteous dumbfucks(sorry for the usage of words) then when it gets extreme yes.

On the other hand if it's mild and im not refering to the current case. Then it's just wise to stay quiet and not say anything untactful.

My classmates either forgot my differences or got busied by other problems. For example the usual bullytypes here would seize to bully around 8-9.grade since they understand they have wasted their provious years to useless stuff. Either they fail at exams or they get at least some sensibility.

This is what happened here. I was lot bullied in school. But I sustained cool attitude, ignored the usual sayings etc. One thing to advise to people who suffer from bullying: don't self righteous yourself or you will be smacked by the other ones also.

 

[IxionIndustries]

God damn.. If they went *that* far, then they aren't bullies, they, in my eyes, would be considered a gang. And if they were terrorizing the WHOLE town, they're a public menace, and need to be dealt with.

I think the father was in the right.

 

[DarkJester]

Just my opinion, of course... but I see nothing wrong with unloading a few shells into these teens.
They wanted to be tough, they wanted to intimidate and then it seems that they wanted to cause physical harm. You don't show up on someone's property brandishing weapons and threats and NOT expect some recompense.
The father should have taken them all out one by one from the second-story window. After warning the kids of his ownership of a firearm and intent to use it, of course.
No mercy when it comes to defending home and hearth. You endanger my family and their safety, you had better bring more than idle threats to the party; because I sure will.

 

[Jenova65]

That father did the right thing. Perhaps those idiots have learned a life lesson for once.

Lesson for life? How, when one of them is dead? That isn't teaching a life lesson, that is executing someone for bullying!

Though I don't believe he should have hunted down the teen he killed, they were way past the point of bullying when they were on his property with weapons. That is intent to do harm.

Dead! A 15/16 year old is dead! He was already avenged when he shot the child in the arm, surely? That is my point.

That father did the right thing. Perhaps those idiots have learned a life lesson for once.

Lesson for life? How, when one of them is dead? That isn't teaching a life lesson, that is executing someone for bullying!

It's a guy that has terrorized your family for the longest time, and then he shows up at your house to take revenge on you. You think you might want to defend yourself?

He didn't need to execute the kid, he should have restrained him after the first shot and called the cops. But as a hunter and gun owner, if people show up on my property that I know are hostile to me, I would do just what this guy did.

That again is my point, the first shot was at the very least, enough. A child is dead. The child might have been an asshole, but death? Community service or boot camp would have been suitable, not death.

15 Year olds are still kids?
Teenagers are very different from Children, He was a teenager, He was a **** nugget, He got what he deserved.

He was a child, and you do not know what his background was maybe he went home after school and got beaten by his dad, maybe he didn't, however by your standards - Bullying = death sentence, I respectfully disagree with you! Many teens are assholes, and go on to be better adults and make right the things they did when they were young!

No, but approaching someone's home with intention to enter and cause potentially lethal harm to the occupants is more than just cause to defend with lethal force, especially considering it was 6 armed young men versus ONE.

I realise that, do you think they had murder on their minds? I don't, I think they thought they would rough them up as payback for what happened when one them got punched (not right, but not murder)
But everything else is conjecture anyway, THE point is, the first shot that hit the arm and caused the boy to attempt to flee was enough. Not (for the last time) DEATH! That boy is dead, how many people are really 'getting', this. And suppose, just for a minute that he was just off the rails and his parents are decent law abiding individuals, do they deserve a life sentence living without their child?

 

[Arcticflame]

It's a dog eat dog world.

I get that a lot of people say that it was wrong of him to kill that kid, but if I was in his shoes, I would kill him too.

It has nothing to do with justice. It is retribution.

I just cannot understand how this is acceptable in any way.

Your morals are yours, and my morals are mine. Who am I to question you, and who are you to question me?

I understand why people wouldn't want to kill him, I really do. But when someone comes to my house, armed with melee weapons, ready to beat my son, and my family, then they are a threat and I will hunt those fuckers down. I wouldn't kill him because he's an asshole, I would kill him because he is a threat to my family.

That's the point of a forum isn't it? If no challenging went on at all it would be utterly boring. And society doesn't work that way either, morals conflict all the time, it has to function in a way it works out for everyone. (Which in this case, the law obviously hasn't functioned).

My issue isn't the initial shooting, it's the fact the guy reloaded and chased him down.
The fact the police can't do anything (which sounds dodgy in the first place, source please OP), is not an excuse to be able to go further than the gang was in the first place.

A threat is one thing, so you shoot the guy, and he runs away. Fine, but then he chases him down after reloading and shoots him? That's not stopping a threat, that's murder.

For fuck sake.
He is not a kid, how many fucking times do I have to say it? 15+ Year olds are NOT kids.

It makes no difference to my point. I don't care if it was a 7 Foot giant. The guy was fleeing for his life, and the man reloaded and chased him, that's going past defending oneself and gone into plain murder.

Notice how when the gang leader was killed, the gang fled by the way? This kind of shows this wasn't a hardened gang at all, but a group of wankers egging each other on. Idiots and evil? Yeah, but hardly a gang that couldn't be dealt with without killing one of them.

I'd say if anything killing one of them would make it worse, shooting one of them in the arm and they run off = Well shit, a guy with a gun, I'm not going to mess with him. Fair enough.

But Killing one = Revenge. If this was a dangerous gang, you just declared war. If it's what it sounds like - a gang of idiots who think they're tough - you just went overboard, and basicaly killed a guy for naught.

I pretty much agree with you, although as I said, I doubt if he had time to consider his actions he would've killed them. It's just a danger reflex, and it doesn't mean he's a bad person or that he'd kill again.

Chasing someone down after you reloaded and they are running away is not a danger reflex.

At best it shows the guy is so severely mentally unstable he could get a lesser sentence. (Which is probably the case anyway).

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

Id have to say the man had a right to pull out a gun to defend his family but killing the kid was unnecessary but i can see why he would do it, If his family had been harrassed for a long by these kids then he may have been simply too overcome with rage by the fact that this time they were trying to hurt his family.
To you who say you wouldn't have done it, put yourself in the mans position, a gang of teens have been harrassing your family, and almost getting you killed, and then one day they try to attack you, you would probably be as pissed off as that guy was

 

[SkullCap]

Hey y'all, I just read an article in a magazine, and it made me think, especially since the subject was familiar, namely bullying. The article was written about a swedish small town called Rödeby, a place that's not realy rural nor urban. Long story short, the whole place had been constantly messed with by teens who went around on their mopeds and terrorized people for the lulz. Especially much had a family of four, a father, a mother, a daughter and a son, been subjected to harrassment by the same little "gang", mostly because the son, who was 18, was slightly mentally retarded. They had repeatedly driven up beside him while he was out driving his moped and tried to push him off the road, and did almost the same thing to his father, who suffers from ADHD, tourettes and a few other conditions, only they opened a door on his car while it was moving. On a crowded road.

When he heard of this, the daughter's boyfriend got mighty pissed about this and hit the leader of the gang in the head, then left before he did something drastic. The leader brought his little "gang" to the family's farm, because he didn't know who had hit him, and now they gathered outside the house, improvising striking tools they found in the family's garage, in the middle of the night. They harrassed the son on the phone and said "we're outside now", and the father woke up, and being a experienced and skilled hunter, took a shotgun with him to defend himself if necessary. A "gang"-member approached their main door. They were distracted a moment by the mother of the house pulling up into the driveway, and the father then stepped outside on the stairs. The 15-16 year old kids (all about 6 of them) turned back to face the house. The father instinctively shot the closest one in the arm, and followed up in less than a second by shooting the leader, who turned to run away in the back. He crawls to under a tree to try and hide and gather himself again. The boy who was shot in the arm attempted to run away, but the father loaded the shotgun again and chased him down and shot him dead, before breaking down in a fit of angst while the rest of the "gang" fled.

Huge discussions rose up after this, and the father admitted that he was genuinely sorry, but that he did it in self-defense. Due to his conditions, he was let go in court, although he had to pay both of the boys he shot's families.

This gang, and especially the leader, had been a special problem a very very long time and continually harrassed the family especially, but also the community as a whole. Due to being under 18 though, the police could do very little about them.

So discuss: did the father act right? How far can you go to defend yourself and your family?

That father should have shot the boy's parents for raising their son so poorly.

 

[Chairehead]

I'm going to say, if you are going to harrass a family, do a bit of research about their association with firearms, i think we have a darwin award nominee.

And secondly, murder in any circumstance is a negative thing, i believe that temporarily hospitalizing someone is the limit to retaliation

 

[Mr.Squishy]

It's a dog eat dog world.

I get that a lot of people say that it was wrong of him to kill that kid, but if I was in his shoes, I would kill him too.

It has nothing to do with justice. It is retribution.

I just cannot understand how this is acceptable in any way.

Your morals are yours, and my morals are mine. Who am I to question you, and who are you to question me?

I understand why people wouldn't want to kill him, I really do. But when someone comes to my house, armed with melee weapons, ready to beat my son, and my family, then they are a threat and I will hunt those fuckers down. I wouldn't kill him because he's an asshole, I would kill him because he is a threat to my family.

That's the point of a forum isn't it? If no challenging went on at all it would be utterly boring. And society doesn't work that way either, morals conflict all the time, it has to function in a way it works out for everyone. (Which in this case, the law obviously hasn't functioned).

My issue isn't the initial shooting, it's the fact the guy reloaded and chased him down.
The fact the police can't do anything (which sounds dodgy in the first place, source please OP), is not an excuse to be able to go further than the gang was in the first place.

A threat is one thing, so you shoot the guy, and he runs away. Fine, but then he chases him down after reloading and shoots him? That's not stopping a threat, that's murder.

For fuck sake.
He is not a kid, how many fucking times do I have to say it? 15+ Year olds are NOT kids.

It makes no difference to my point. I don't care if it was a 7 Foot giant. The guy was fleeing for his life, and the man reloaded and chased him, that's going past defending oneself and gone into plain murder.

Notice how when the gang leader was killed, the gang fled by the way? This kind of shows this wasn't a hardened gang at all, but a group of wankers egging each other on. Idiots and evil? Yeah, but hardly a gang that couldn't be dealt with without killing one of them.

I'd say if anything killing one of them would make it worse, shooting one of them in the arm and they run off = Well shit, a guy with a gun, I'm not going to mess with him. Fair enough.

But Killing one = Revenge. If this was a dangerous gang, you just declared war. If it's what it sounds like - a gang of idiots who think they're tough - you just went overboard, and basicaly killed a guy for naught.

I pretty much agree with you, although as I said, I doubt if he had time to consider his actions he would've killed them. It's just a danger reflex, and it doesn't mean he's a bad person or that he'd kill again.

Chasing someone down after you reloaded and they are running away is not a danger reflex.

At best it shows the guy is so severely mentally unstable he could get a lesser sentence. (Which is probably the case anyway).

One: The guy had several mental problems, as mentioned a few times through the thread and I do believe in the original post too.
Two: I read the article in an issue of Aftenposten (a norwegian newspaper), or to be more precise, one of their spin-off magazines. Leifur actually read the article too from what I gathered and either corrected or filled out a couple of things I missed.

 

[IronicBeet]

They're bullies. Serves 'em right.

 

[likalaruku]

I live in a country where if you boobytrap your own car or house to prevent thieves from breaking in, the thief can sue you & win. If I want to avoid jail or lawsuits, all I can do to defend myself is hope that the police do their jobs.

 

[slipknot4]

Self defence?
He reloaded twice and shot to kill... that's mental sickness.
They are just justifying murder.