Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

[Alexander Bonney]

Since this is a predominantly male community, I figured talking about this here would result in the most interesting feedback. And I suppose I'm in the mood for a little controversy.

So you become friends with a female, and you really like her in that way. You spend time with her, you're kind to her, and you're always doing her favors. Eventually you pluck up the courage to confess your attraction and then GASP! she doesn't like you that way, and wants to stay friends! So now you go to all your buddies and cry that you were "friend zoned". Oh my goodness how dare that biotch not have any romantic feelings towards you!! You weren't a jerk to her so you were entitled to a relationship with her! And since your plans to get a little action were in vain, you cease being friends with the girl. And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants.

Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?

Also, when a girl says "I wish I could find a guy like you" but they don't want you, think of it this way: (stealing the metaphor from a friend of mine) Say you are out shopping and you want to buy a red pair of shoes. You get to the shoe store and find a nice pair of red shoes, but that particular pair of shoes isn't exactly suited to your taste so you continue looking and maybe you end up getting a pair of shoes completely different to what you were originally looking for. So when a girl says, "I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you. This does not make her a hypocrite, or a *****. So please stop whining and making yourselves out to be a victim of some heinous crime because the girl you like doesn't like you.

Sorry for the little rant, I've just seen too many "friend zone" related memes and rage comics recently. 0___0

You're forgetting the part where the girl dates a total asshole that makes her life miserable in almost every way, insults her intelligence, and essentially uses her as a piece of meat which feels better than a hand when wrapped around his penis. But hey, that's girl logic in this day and age, right? Right?

 

[Spinozaad]

That's because men secretly hate women.

Although, to be fair, the entire "I would like to be friends"-rejection has to end. Females tend to overuse that one, even outside the "friendzone case". For example, recently I had two dates with the same girl. It was fun and enjoyable. After the second date she called me and said that she didn't think it was going to work out. 'Alright,' I thought. 'Rejection is painful, but hey. It happens.'

But then she came with the "but I would like to be friends" excuse in order, I think, not to hurt me. First of all, I go into dates for a romantic relationship and not general friendship. Secondly, you're already hurting the other by rejecting him/her. Third, if you really are friends, it is already obvious. There's no need to (re)affirm it!

So yes. In short:

1. Men secretly hate women.
2. Men shouldn't try to "work their ways up" through friendship. That's deception, and it doesn't bloody work.
3. Women should stop using the "let's be friends"-routine, because it is meaningless.

 

[Eamar]

Girls are not psychic, they will not spontaneously interpret your constant clinging on to hope that with every conversation you become a little bit closer to scoring with her as a prompt to fall at your heels. She will either eventually realise what you are doing is creepy or it will come as a complete surprise when you suddenly and emotionally declare your everlasting love for her two years down the line. When you start acting all pissy when she sees other men she will be extremely hurt by the behaviour of what she genuinely believed was a friend. All of these roads will lead to you becoming that arsehole creep I need a restraining order against

Amen. I've been on the receiving end of this before, someone I genuinely considered a close friend through years of school together suddenly came out with this over-emotional declaration of love, and just couldn't accept that I hadn't picked up on his "signs," which I'd always thought were just marks of a close friendship (and I'm not completely clueless when it comes to noticing these things, either). I was taken aback and didn't feel the same way about him, so I tried to let him down gently but honestly. He accused me of stringing him along, and then got into the whole being a jerk when I was interesting in or seeing anyone else phase. When I called him out on it he told me to deal with it, because he saw it as his right to try and stop others from being with me. He pretty much actually said the classic "I don't see why someone else should have you if I can't" line. Obviously I stopped spending time with him.

Thing is, he really wasn't "crazy", as I'm sure some women might assume. He'd just got orders of magnitude too invested in something that was never going to happen. To be honest, I think after all that time it wasn't even me he was "in love with," but some unrealistic, idealised version of me. We were teenagers and I'm sure he's more mature about such things now, but guys: please don't become that guy. (*standard disclaimer that women are perfectly capable of acting like this too*)

 

[tobyornottoby]

You're forgetting the part where the girl dates a total asshole that makes her life miserable in almost every way, insults her intelligence, and essentially uses her as a piece of meat which feels better than a hand when wrapped around his penis. But hey, that's girl logic in this day and age, right? Right?

No that's passive-aggressive "nice guy" logic. Their way of seeing things.

 

[AquaAscension]

Guys... don't confess your feelings. At least not like a puppy dog begging. Usually the difference between friend and more is awkwardness (or attractiveness, but you can't change the latter). If you're attracted to her, let her know. Friends, after all, are open and honest with each other. But don't expect her to fall for you just because you feel a certain way. Be friends, make other friends, have a good time, don't worry about her being "the one" just because you "can talk to her so easily." People are just people and there are 7 billion of them. Plus, if you have a good friend who's a girl, she can totally introduce you to new friends, new experiences, new things you may not have ever even thought to try.

That's what happened with the girl who "friend zoned" me. She brought me to a dance studio at which I made a ton of friends and contacts while learning how to be a pretty good swing dancer. If I had acted all sad and stupid when she said she wasn't interested, then I would have lost a friend and lost all these potential experiences.

Bottom line is that if you are holding your friendship with a girl hostage, then you're not really a friend. Good luck anyhow.

 

[tobyornottoby]

tl;dr
In essence, I think nice guys are disappointed, not self-entitled.

The cause does not justify the deeds. Some of these "nice guys" still have a very misogynic way of expressing that disappointment.

I can safely say that at least 10% of the women in this world have the IQ low enough to be considered legally retarded. I don't know the percentage of men with low IQ but in 10 women there is always one who is simply dumb.

And I don't mean "spiders are insects"-dumb.

I mean "Morgan Freeman is my favorite scientist"-dumb.

Actually, the 10% dumbest males will be dumber (on average) than the 10% dumbest females. Just like how the 10% smartest males will be smarter (on average) than the 10% smartest females.

That's because from a survival perspective, you need less males than females to keep up a healthy population. Males are more disposable, so nature has more freedom to mess around with all kinds of evolutionary traits on them. Also why a lot of heritable disorders are passed down through the male line.

 

[Vegosiux]

You're forgetting the part where the girl dates a total asshole that makes her life miserable in almost every way, insults her intelligence, and essentially uses her as a piece of meat which feels better than a hand when wrapped around his penis. But hey, that's girl logic in this day and age, right? Right?

No that's passive-aggressive "nice guy" logic. Their way of seeing things.

You know, it happens more often than you'd think. Okay, plenty of those cases only manifest when it's taken past "dating", when the two are actually living together and all, so I suppose that's a different issue when new variables come into play, and some variables leave play.

But, trust me, it does happen, and it does happen more often than any of us should be comfortable with. It's not just something people make up, unfortunately.

 

[tobyornottoby]

Of course, women in general are an unreasonable and illogical bunch at the best of times.

Latin is only gibberish until you learn the language. While it's true that women (on average) will rely more on feelings then men whereas men will rely more on facts than women, A LOT of things men don't understand about women are just because they are looking at it from the wrong perspective (their own male one).

 

[EMFCRACKSHOT]

i hate the whole nice guy vs jerk


really it should be fake guy who pretends to be a certain way to get pussy vs real guy who gets pussy being the way he is

nice guys bend over backwards trying to please a girl who doesnt give two shits about them thats pathetic


one i find sexcually attractive the other i let him do my laundry then laugh at him thinking how lame this dude is thinkinhg im gonig to sleep with him just for being nice to me.

You really are a terribe person. And whilst, if you are as attractive as you think you are, i might try and pick you up for a shag on a night out, i can see no redeeming features here that would make me even contemplate persuing a romantic relationship with you. There are certain girls who just get used for sex, right now you are one of them. You might want to take a good long look at yourself and your lifestyle and maybe get a fresh perspective.

As to the whole friendzone thing, in my experience it something that becomes less and less significant the older you get. I mean, i don't think i've ever heard, say, a 30 year old complaining that they've been friendzoned.The friendzone, in my humble opinion, is just another coping mechanism for rejection.
The so called "nice guy" who is only friends with a girl because he wants sex (or sometimes its the other way round, not as often but it does happen) is being manipulative and probably won't succeed at any rate.
What does annoy me about it though is that it suggests that people can't be nice to each other withouth there being some alterior motive (such as here where the motive is sexy time). I know it might surprise some of you jaded folk on the internet, but some people are actually just nice (not me i'm kind of a dick xD) like my friend andy. He is the most genuinly nice guy i have ever met and he doesn't do it to try and get laid, he just is.
This is far more rambly and less coherant than i intended, but I am recovering from a three day piss up so i beg your forgiveness dear readers.

 

[ElPatron]

Actually, the 10% dumbest males will be dumber (on average) than the 10% dumbest females. Just like how the 10% smartest males will be smarter (on average) than the 10% smartest females.

That's because from a survival perspective, you need less males than females to keep up a healthy population. Males are more disposable, so nature has more freedom to mess around with all kinds of evolutionary traits on them. Also why a lot of heritable disorders are passed down through the male line.

But men being dumb is not news. Now, from an evolutionary standpoint it's obvious that women will try to have kids with a strong male, even if that means she will have to raise it alone.

But that should be the last resort. Using it as a primary modus operandi is just dumb, specially when there is no intention to have kids, and you're doing it again and again but still expecting a different result.

TL;DR - don't date dumb women

2. Men shouldn't try to "work their ways up" through friendship. That's deception, and it doesn't bloody work.

It does work, and it's not deception.

I don't know, perhaps I am the eternal "the one that got away" and I was never haunted by the curse.

The so called "nice guy" who is only friends with a girl because he wants sex (or sometimes its the other way round, not as often but it does happen) is being manipulative and probably won't succeed at any rate.
What does annoy me about it though is that it suggests that people can't be nice to each other withouth there being some alterior motive

I also hated how some people in this thread implied you can't be nice to girls to date them.

 

[tobyornottoby]

You're forgetting the part where the girl dates a total asshole that makes her life miserable in almost every way, insults her intelligence, and essentially uses her as a piece of meat which feels better than a hand when wrapped around his penis. But hey, that's girl logic in this day and age, right? Right?

No that's passive-aggressive "nice guy" logic. Their way of seeing things.

You know, it happens more often than you'd think. Okay, plenty of those cases only manifest when it's taken past "dating", when the two are actually living together and all, so I suppose that's a different issue when new variables come into play, and some variables leave play.

But, trust me, it does happen, and it does happen more often than any of us should be comfortable with. It's not just something people make up, unfortunately.

Oh yes, it happens, it's a real thing, which is why it's so effective for those "nice guys" to believe that's how her bf-who-isn't-them is. Sure they could be right. But a lot of times they won't be, and it's just how they see things.

 

[PAGEToap44]

It's one thing to develop feelings for an existing friend, but if you know you are attracted to someone then it is much better for everyone involved if you declare it from the off. If that person feels the same way, well done you. If they don't, then you should either accept that and possibly form a friendship with them, or accept it and leave them to get on with their life. Do not make friends with someone that you're attracted to with the sole intent of attempting something later on; that only leads to awkwardness and hurt for everyone involved.

I wish I'd realised this a few months ago. I would be a whole lot happier right now. It describes exactly how I acted and no, it does not end well people.

 

[Raven's Nest]

Amen. I've been on the receiving end of this before, someone I genuinely considered a close friend through years of school together suddenly came out with this over-emotional declaration of love, and just couldn't accept that I hadn't picked up on his "signs," which I'd always thought were just marks of a close friendship (and I'm not completely clueless when it comes to noticing these things, either). I was taken aback and didn't feel the same way about him, so I tried to let him down gently but honestly. He accused me of stringing him along, and then got into the whole being a jerk when I was interesting in or seeing anyone else phase. When I called him out on it he told me to deal with it, because he saw it as his right to try and stop others from being with me. He pretty much actually said the classic "I don't see why someone else should have you if I can't" line. Obviously I stopped spending time with him.

Thing is, he really wasn't "crazy", as I'm sure some women might assume. He'd just got orders of magnitude too invested in something that was never going to happen. To be honest, I think after all that time it wasn't even me he was "in love with," but some unrealistic, idealised version of me. We were teenagers and I'm sure he's more mature about such things now, but guys: please don't become that guy. (*standard disclaimer that women are perfectly capable of acting like this too*)

Yeah, i've seen it happen both ways, it's not pretty and a real shame when the memory of what could have been a really fun two years of what you believe is genuine friendship gets suddenly and painfully transformed into something ugly. That is the danger of dating a self proclaimed "nice guy"... Also happens with Girls with major self-confidence issues and depression... A good sign to avoid as personal experience testifies...

You know, I was going through some old stuff the other day and found a little note from my ex of a few years back "Dear Adam, I love you sooo much and you are never allowed to leave me!".... That's like the loudest god-damn fog-horn of a warning you can give...

Anyway, the point you make about idealising versions of people. Its very true, everyone does it to an extent. Most kid's always seem think their dad is better than anyone else's. Most girls looked at models with stick thin bodies and think their lives must be amazing. Most little boys think that driving fast cars and dating beautiful women is the ultimate life... Okay most blokes still do haha.

Eventually everyone grows up but the ones that don't are the ones that assume the one they lust over is perfect in every way and that they themselves are the perfect match for them. We've all done it at some point I'm sure. It's just part of growing up I guess. So your right, we shouldn't dismiss all people like that and assume they are horrible freaks to avoid, some people just need a little bit more time than others to mature (even in their mid twenties and above) and a few gentle words often goes a long long way.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

As far as I'm concerned the "Friend Zone" is an entirely fictional thing made up by teenagers to avoid admitting their own inexperience and clumsiness.

You take one boy/girl with little romantic experience and average or below average social skills. Add a crush on another boy/girl with little romantic experience and average or below average social skills.

Being inexperienced and not a social genius the first boy/girl will fumble around for a bit, get his/her bearings and slowly carefully move forward. In the process a friendship happens to begin. After a period of friendship where things seem to be going well the boy/girl gathers up his/her courage and attempts to advance the relationship further. But being inexperienced this is done in a rather clumsy way like say a direct confession of feelings.

Now we get the other person, also inexperienced and not a social genius. He/she failed to recognize the feelings of the other and when the clumsy confession comes in all likelihood gives out an equally clumsy response, usually in the format of "No but you're such a great person etc.". Lacking the social experience needed to realize that a person in love, like the other, will pay attention to what comes after the "but", not what comes before.

It's just something that happens when you put a lot of teenagers together. Most of us aren't social geniuses and don't have the necessary experience to compensate. Nothing wrong with it, it's just another of life's lessons.

I'd agree with the whole "Just because you're nice doesn't entitle you to a relationship with them"
However, the friend I had feelings for, hooked up with me (while she was completely sober mind you) months after we became friends, then when I confessed my feelings for her I was instantly friend zoned.
Now that was bullshit.

First off I'd like to plus one these and now to add my own little bit.

OT: The part that lost me is saying I wish I could find a guy like you. That is pretty much a middle finger to your "friend" as you are saying if you were hotter I'd go out with you. That is like a guy saying I'd like you if weren't so fat which for some reason is a social faux pas and I wonder why. I would also like this to be the last topic on this for about a year but I know that is not going to happen.

 

[The Funslinger]

So when a girl says, "I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you.

This is something that a girl should not ever say to a guy though if she knows the guy has romantic feelings for her. It serves no purpose and its really hurtful. Pretty much tells the guy that he's not good enough for her.

why must woman constantly pander to men's weak egos ? honestly if im not attracted to you what else do you want a woman to say your ugly ???

i wish more women would be honest with the guys they reject i have friends who reject ugly guys and tell oh your a nice guy blah blah blahhhhh

then these guys going on thinking there getting rejected because there nice when in reality the girl is not attracted to them


just like men have standartds women do to and most of these nice guys usually dont fall into women standards looks wise yet they expect to get the sexy, big breasted blue eye blonde hair supermodel type chick when he's not even on her level

i never see these so called nice guys chasing after females who have the same type of personalities as them they always go after the girl every other guys once and expects her to like him

I'm not saying pander to a man's weak ego. Men should suck it up and accept that the woman doesn't like them.

But what purpose does it serve to tell a guy who you know has deep feelings for you that they want someone so much like you, but isn't actually you? A girl can want that, sure, but why bother telling the guy in the first place? Especially worded like that. The argument the OP used, "And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?" can go both ways, you know. I can be friends with a woman without the overarching goal to be sex, but in what way is she being a good friend to the guy by saying, "You have all these redeeming qualities. Why can't I find them in someone more attractive?!"? It isn't pandering to a weak ego, its being a good person and being a good friend. Its just not something that needs to be said. Keep that between other people who aren't everything you want, minus one or two traits.

I've never gone up to a girl that I knew had a thing for me and said, "Wow, we have such a good time hanging out. You're funny and sweet and we connect on so many levels. Why can't I find somebody else like that?!" Its just rude and hurtful.

Exactly. I have a particular lady friend, and she and I have many common interests, she's a genuinely interesting person. If I met a girl with her personality that I was attracted to, I'd be all over that. However, I'm not going to just go and say to her "I'm not sexually attracted to you, haha!"

If it turned out she did have feelings for me (which at times, I did suspect, but I think it's a false alarm) I'd let her down easy. And after that, I'd never pull the "why can't I find someone like you?" routine, especially considering I'd never even say that to someone who's just a friend, with no strong feelings in the mix whatsoever.

In any case, to paraphrase How I Met Your Mother, everyone's been on someone's hook. Glad to say I've gotten that out the way, though it was one of the more depressing periods of my life, and if I could go back in time, I'd probably slap past me.

I like to think it's made me a wiser (if more cynical) person. I choose to just carry on being an all around decent human being. I'll hold a door, offer someone my jacket, and ward off the occasional creeper even if I'm not trying to get into someone's fun zone. What does irritate me is when someone assumes that means I have feelings for them. Which usually gets a very derisive "don't flatter yourself". Hell, I'd probably even say that to someone I did have feelings for if they turned sufficiently bitchy about it, as that'd be the hallmark of someone I don't want to date anyway.

 

[Spinozaad]

It does work, and it's not deception.

The "I want to stick my oyster knife into her clam, so let me pretend to be her friend so I'll gain her trust and, eventually into her pants"-spiel is deception. You pretend to be something you're not. In my experience, that simply doesn't work.

However, you have those cases where people are genuinely friends/on friendly terms/acquaintances and move into a romantic relationship from there. I'd say most stable relations start that way.

 

[Xangba]

Anyway, I'm done talking with someone who clearly only requires that someone have a good body and will jump into bed with them in a heartbeat.

Wouldn't that mean you are done talking to A LOT of men?

Really? I mean come on seriously? Women are just as bad as men. This whole "men only want sex" thing is really overdone. We're at a point in time where women are just as bad as men for cheating, sleeping around, and just wanting sex. And for your question, yes, I avoid talking to quite a few men and women because I have no respect for people that whore themselves out. Hell I can't remember the last time I got in contact with 70% of the people from my high school graduating class since most of the women were sluts, and the rest I just plain didn't know (500 people, couldn't be bothered to know them all). Seven got pregnant my senior year. The freshman class that year was bad too, six pregnant.

 

[renegade7]

I never really heard the argument that "I was nice to you so I deserve sex/a relationship/etc." But I do know that it can be extremely frustrating when you put a whole bunch of effort and heartache into impressing someone you like only to have them reject you. But I think guys should really be more aware of a few things.

1.) The girl almost certainly knows (or at least suspects) what you're up to, and dancing around the issue shows a real lack of confidence. That's not attractive, and it can make it seem to her like her nice guy friend is a real creep and hurt your future friendship.

2.) Subtle hints. It should be pretty damn obvious when she isn't interested in a relationship. If she actually wants to be with you, she'll let you know herself.

3.) What exactly is wrong with just being friends? Your girlfriend (I'm speaking from a male perspective) may hurt you, toy with you, tease you, and more than likely end up breaking your heart. Your friends will pull you out of the fire when that happens. Also it's really good to have female friends when dating other girls. It sends a message that you're a decent guy who women enjoy having around, and it also shows that you respect women and don't just see them as things to fuck. Plus if you're a shy guy like me it can be a big confidence booster.

 

[Stomperchomper]

I asked a female friend out once and she said yes. Then she started avoiding me, and the day before we were supposed to go out, she says "Sorry, I'd already made plans with one of my other friends I haven't seen in a while".

And then that was it. She avoided me, I got the hint, and feeling a bit hurt at being led on for that week (I was 17 and far too inexperienced to realize throughout that week to realize what was coming) so I ended up avoiding her. A month or two later, and I was over her completely, and a bit wiser. (I think)

Looking back at this, We probably could have remained friends, but neither of us really handled the situation well. She should have straight up told me when I asked her on a date that she didn't want to go out with me. Would have been nicer than letting me think I'd been successful for that week. And I probably should have realized what was coming when she started avoiding me.

Here's the thing that used to annoy me a bit about this whole topic. I was taught it's shallow to go for a girl purely on looks, but rather go for women whom you actually have things in common with. Part of me reasoned that "Well, this female friend of mine and I have lots of common, so why not try taking things to the next level?"

I wasn't the "Nice guy" who was being nice just to get with her, she and I had been friends for a while, and I was too stupid/naive/inexperienced to realize just how much of barrier that can be. It seemed more of a natural next step to me. Nicest thing for a girl to do at that point is to be honest if they aren't interested, perhaps say why they don't want to go out with that guy. The guy might be hurt, but if he's a decent person at all, the honesty will make it much easier to move on.

 

[Vegosiux]

You're forgetting the part where the girl dates a total asshole that makes her life miserable in almost every way, insults her intelligence, and essentially uses her as a piece of meat which feels better than a hand when wrapped around his penis. But hey, that's girl logic in this day and age, right? Right?

No that's passive-aggressive "nice guy" logic. Their way of seeing things.

You know, it happens more often than you'd think. Okay, plenty of those cases only manifest when it's taken past "dating", when the two are actually living together and all, so I suppose that's a different issue when new variables come into play, and some variables leave play.

But, trust me, it does happen, and it does happen more often than any of us should be comfortable with. It's not just something people make up, unfortunately.

Oh yes, it happens, it's a real thing, which is why it's so effective for those "nice guys" to believe that's how her bf-who-isn't-them is. Sure they could be right. But a lot of times they won't be, and it's just how they see things.

Yeah, it's always the "nice guys" thinking that because it suits them, and in no way caused, say, by the woman complaining to said "nice guy" about how much of an assole her bf/husband/whatever is.

There's two things that girls really should learn not to say, one is "we can still be friends" at a bad time, because that's about as comforting as being told you can keep your cat after it was run over by a car (and then they even get offended if the guy instead of throwing a fit says "No thanks" and simply walks away); the other is "I wish I found someone like you", because, girl, if you're talking to him, you're looking at "someone like him" and what you're saying is rather stupid.

Actually, we all shouldn't be using stock phrases in delicate situations. We all should also respect that our decisions are our own and as sure as the girl's potential decision not to date a guy has to be respected, so does the guy's potential subsequent decision that he wants nothing further to do with her.