Circumcision: a Pillar of American ignorance

[Syzygy23]

At this point in out modern society, there is little justification for such an act, yet America continues this ridiculous practice, for largely cosmetic reasons, along with the ideology, "I was, so my son will be". Is this not insane? It is absurd to perform surgery based on cosmetic reasons unless of some horrible deformity or mutilation. Besides, the foreskin offers more pleasure, and keeps the head lubricated. Many people perform this act, because they do no know the alternative, and that is truly tragic. Throughout Eurasia, and the rest of the world circumcision is on the decline, because people have recognized these truths for over half a century. The only reason (Outside of religion), is that is can reduce the chances of catching HIV, something that has been huge problem within 3rd-world countries, but why not offer condoms instead of a permanent surgical solution, reintroduce the female condom, an older tool originally intended to offer women the tool necessary to keep themselves safe. What say you? This is not an attack, only an outcry.

uhhhh... Where exactly have you been getting your facts? I have never heard of circumcision being an issue, like, anywhere. Ever. In my entire life.

But seriously, you act like this is some horrible thing. News flash: It's subjective. Just because you think it's weird or gross or horrible or wrong, doesn't mean anyone else does, nor does it mean you're right.

 

[WanderingFool]

Really people? ITs the day after Chirstmas (whether or not it has any significant religious meaning for you), cant we find something more..e pleasant to talk about?

*Edit*

Meant to have this, but accidently pressed the post button.

Also, isnt the uncircumcised male more likely to get infections there than the circumcised male? Thats what I was told back in Sex Ed, but as im already circumcised, I didnt really give two shits about that topic in class...

 

[Syzygy23]

Circumcision: the new rape threads for the Escapist.

I think this is a non-issue, but the really stupid part of these threads is all the users citing "Children are getting mutilated" as a reason. When the hell did escapist users start caring about children? This is the same forum that hates kids because of the censorship placed on TV, would rather the entire population was immortal instead of reproductive, and argued that not being able to kill children in video games was "breaking their immersion". Now people are getting indignant because of a procedure that has enough pros and cons on both sides to make this really a non-issue. You don't care about kids, Escapist, so stop using them as ammunition.

No one hates all kids and this is not new stop taking the views of a vocal minority and if you do not like a thread don't comment on it and it will die faster pleading with people on the internet is like pissing into a hurricane where if you're piss hits you it functions like an acid with a PH of 1.

I dunno, I have seen NO threads on this website with polls on "how much you like children" or "I would remain mortal given the choice"

 

[C2Ultima]

Escapist Forums: a Pillar of your own ignorance

Being circumcised is entirely based of your religion and personal beliefs, not whether you're American or not. Please make sure you research a subject carefully before making such brash statements.

 

[Rodrigo Girao]

uhhhh... Where exactly have you been getting your facts? I have never heard of circumcision being an issue, like, anywhere. Ever. In my entire life.

Your ignorance about something does not make that something not exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_controversies

 

[SilentCom]

Is this another hate America thread? How quaint. Also, despite my dad having been circumsized, me and my brothers aren't. How's that for combo breaker and american ignorance?

Frnakly, calling all Americans ignorant because some people in America do it is like calling humanity stupid because one group of people have done something stupid.

 

[Megumi0505]

Since I'm a girl I can't really comment on this first hand. I remember hearing in class that some doctors believe that the foreskin can become a breeding ground for bacteria and it can cause infections and stuff if it's not kept properly clean. So for some people, circumcision becomes a hygiene issue rather than a religious or cosmetic issue. I've personally never seen a penis with the foreskin in tact. So I'd probably be a little weirded out if I came across one either in real life or watching porn. Just because I'm not used to seeing that sort of thing.

As for the procedure itself, while it is a little disturbing to actually look at diagrams of it and all that, this is a medical procedure. It's not like anyone who's had it done is going to actually remember the procedure, it's impossible to have memories from that time because the brain isn't fully formed at that time. That's like trying to argue it's wrong to give them injections. Newborns do get quite a few needles for various immunizations and allergy tests. Would you also consider that torture? I have scar on my left thigh from one of the shots they gave me when I was an infant. Doesn't mean I'm scared emotionally from it XD

I wouldn't call it torture because there's no lasting psychological damage from the procedure. It hurts, it's done, then you forget about it. Then again I am a girl so I can't speak from experience so I could be completely wrong and there might be traumatized circumcised males out there...

 

[Rodrigo Girao]

Being circumcised is entirely based of your religion and personal beliefs, not whether you're American or not. Please make sure you research a subject carefully before making such brash statements.

As in the USA most people do it against the teachings of their own religion [http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5&version=NIV], without even a thought, just because "everyone does", it is correct to see this as a specifically American problem.

 

[SyphonX]

See no evil, hear no evil.

Most people just want to pretend, or rationalize, or simply just create conflict to cover the shame. You're right OP, it is certainly a pillar of ignorance.

 

[Rekrul]

I'm from Europe, had it done when I was 21 for medical reasons, I prefer it this way.

 

[lacktheknack]

How would they know better?

And by the same token, why would they care?

Let's say I poke your eyes out when you're a baby. You will never know what sight is... so why should you care?

Verse six in that link:
<quote=Verse 6>For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Meaning circumcision has zero spiritual value, one way or the other; but he still makes clear that putting any faith on it may damn you, that the old jewish law is a huge load of pointless taboos, and in verse 12 he clearly likens it to a partial castration.

Blindness is a MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more horrific thing to do to a baby than "slightly reduce their sexual pleasure". Having one of your five senses removed and causing immense torment and disability is not even remotely comparable to removing less than a square centimeter of skin.

Also, I'm not putting any faith in it. My parents circumcised me on a doctor's recommendation, and I'm not trying to imply that circumcised people are more likely to get to heaven or anything of the sort, so...

Also, I'm more or less positive Paul was referring to the people in the Galatian church who were calling for newcomers to be circumcised against their will, saying that THEY should go all the way and castrate themselves. If you read all of Galatians, he says more angry and hyperbolic things of the sort.

 

[Jonluw]

And the pros of circumcision are really debatable.

The cons are also really debatable. That's why these threads keep popping up.

The cons is that you are cutting a real child with a scalpel.
And you're doing it without their consent.
Hardly debatable.
Cut anyone else and they'll throw you in jail.

See, if you're fine with that, I want you to be consistent and be accepting of people cutting off whatever part of their child they want, so long as it's non-essential.

What's non-essential?

Earlobes, Labia, Toenails etc.
Of course, I could restrain myself to just making cuts in their skin instead of actually cutting parts off.

Well to start, we already do cut our toenails. Secondly, if it's ever determined that making those cuts in the skin or cutting off ear lobes and labias help reduce the risk of STD infections, then we'll probably be having those arguments too.

I'm not talking about cutting their toenails. Forcefully removing them was my point. I can give them a needle with local anaesthetic first if you feel like it.

In any case, circumcision's STD-preventing effect is negligible. And if it were really that effective: How come HIV is more prevalent in the US than in the rest of the first world?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_HIV/AIDS_adult_prevalence_rate
Here's a weird idea: How about teaching your kids about condoms (which actually prevent STDs very effectively) instead of relying on taking away one of their personal liberties and causing them pain in the process?

 

[Rodrigo Girao]

I wouldn't call it torture because there's no lasting psychological damage from the procedure. It hurts, it's done, then you forget about it. Then again I am a girl so I can't speak from experience so I could be completely wrong and there might be traumatized circumcised males out there...

Well, yes, you are completely wrong.

> The psychological harm of male circumcision [http://www.johmann.net/essays/psychological-harm-of-circumcision.html]
> Circumcision and psychological harm [http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_psychological_effects.html]
> Psychological impact of circumcision on men [http://www.circumcision.org/impact.htm]
> Childhood circumcision: long-term emotional consequences [http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/first/robertson.html]
> Psychological and neurological impacts of male circumcision [http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/]
> Male neonatal circumcision trauma and brain damage [http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/brain_damage/]
> MRI studies: the brain permanently altered from infant circumcision [http://www.drmomma.org/2009/10/mri-studies-brain-permanently-altered.html]

 

[striderkiwi]

At this point in out modern society, there is little justification for such an act, yet America continues this ridiculous practice, for largely cosmetic reasons, along with the ideology, "I was, so my son will be". Is this not insane? It is absurd to perform surgery based on cosmetic reasons unless of some horrible deformity or mutilation. Besides, the foreskin offers more pleasure, and keeps the head lubricated. Many people perform this act, because they do no know the alternative, and that is truly tragic. Throughout Eurasia, and the rest of the world circumcision is on the decline, because people have recognized these truths for over half a century. The only reason (Outside of religion), is that is can reduce the chances of catching HIV, something that has been huge problem within 3rd-world countries, but why not offer condoms instead of a permanent surgical solution, reintroduce the female condom, an older tool originally intended to offer women the tool necessary to keep themselves safe. What say you? This is not an attack, only an outcry.

Didn't know this was a specifically American quality. I like how you mention that but don't talk about the people in California who are constatntly getting facial surgery for things like a nosejob and what not when usually imo they look better before the procedure than afterwards.

I heard the reducing of HIV was the main reason it's still around too, and condoms aren't a failproof answer to that.

 

[Rodrigo Girao]

Didn't know this was a specifically American quality.

I just explained: other than Jewish and Muslim hocus pocus, it is not widespread in any civilized country but USA and South Korea. And in South Korea, it's only due to American influence.

I like how you mention that but don't talk about the people in California who are constatntly getting facial surgery for things like a nosejob and what not when usually imo they look better before the procedure than afterwards.

Still, people CHOOSE to get nosejobs. They don't force babies to get those, unless it's some life-threatening birth defect.

I heard the reducing of HIV was the main reason it's still around too, and condoms aren't a failproof answer to that.

See this table:

Isn't it interesting? Despite the miraculous protective powers of circumcision... in real life, it does not seem to work at all.

Condoms do work. But circumcision gets in the way: if you're desensitized, and you have the delusion that you're protected, you're less likely to use condoms. Therefore, circumcision helps spread AIDS.

 

[Duruznik]

This is not an attack, only an outcry.

Coming fromn someone who is circumsised are you sure about that? I kinda get sick and tired of being treated like some cripple or special person by people like you.

My God yes. I'm sick of being told my parents are freaking monsters for snipping some small bit of useless skin off my privates when I was 8 days old. It's such a non-issue it's not even funny.

 

[Rodrigo Girao]

some small bit of useless skin off my privates

HALF YOUR PENILE SKIN [http://www.circumstitions.com/Notjustaflap.html]. No exaggeration. Half of your penis' surface, and precisely the most sensitive part, gone. It's not a minor change by any sensible scale. It's only a non-issue as long as you remain ignorant about it.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Any doctor worth his salt would advise against it if it isn't a corrective procedure.

Any medical procedure carries inherent risks, baby boys have died from being circumsised, and people want to risk their child's health so their dick looks different?

I question the morals of parents that would obsess over a child's genitalia.

To put some of this into context. Move your finger over your palm, then over the back of your hand. That's the sensitivity difference we're talking about here.

 

[Duruznik]

some small bit of useless skin off my privates

HALF YOUR PENILE SKIN [http://www.circumstitions.com/Notjustaflap.html]. No exaggeration. Half of your penis' surface, and precisely the most sensitive part, gone. It's not a minor change by any sensible scale.

Sorry, still don't see the big deal. It's just some skin.

I mean, sure, I can understand where you (and the other anticircumcision folks) are coming from, but I REALLY don't think this is that big a deal, and really don't see this as 'mutilation.'

 

[Jonluw]

some small bit of useless skin off my privates

HALF YOUR PENILE SKIN [http://www.circumstitions.com/Notjustaflap.html]. No exaggeration. Half of your penis' surface, and precisely the most sensitive part, gone. It's not a minor change by any sensible scale.

Sorry, still don't see the big deal. It's just some skin.

I mean, sure, I can understand where you (and the other anticircumcision folks) are coming from, but I REALLY don't think this is that big a deal, and really don't see this as 'mutilation.'

How about female circumcision then?
Is that mutilation?