Do all women like jerks? No (a rant)

[CardinalPiggles]

im sorry to say this but, it is your instinct to favour the ALPHA MALE, so even though your concious mind is saying i hate that jerk, your sub concious mind is attracted to them, on a level you cant control.

take whatever shot you want at me now.

EDIT: seeing as im being quoted alot i think i should clarify that whilst u cannot control certain urges u can influence them sometimes.

 

[zehydra]

"I'm of the 'well if you're not confident and you don't love yourself, then how can you expect someone else to fall in love with you' camp."

While I mostly agree with OP, this line right here doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

This point interests me, especially in light of the huge amount of threads focused around guys' physical preferences. There always seems to be a thread called "What is your preferred type" or "Tits or Ass" or "What characteristics do you look for in a girl".

Don't get me wrong, I certainly believe that some people are more attractive than others. It's just that I've found that my standard for "attractive" does not mean "ideal". The necessary level of attractiveness is, honestly, quite low and generally includes the vast majority of the female population. It is a quality certainly, but it is never the one that determines the worth of the relationship. As I said, all things considered, even though sexuality and intimacy are an important part of the male/female romantic relationship, they are by no means the most important part.

It's true, the portion of the female population who fits into the ideal feminine appearance is extremely low. And I'm sad that guys make threads like the ones I mentioned above, because it's really only focusing on some attributes of a woman, it implicitly raises appearance above personality in importance for men, and it's bloody unrealistic!

The other point to remember is: it cuts the other way. I'm sure some of the men out there wouldn't enjoy it if they thought girls were judging them in terms of their physical appearance. So when a guy states his "personal preferences" on how a woman should look, he really should step back and wonder whether maybe it would sound so good if it was a girl making the same statements about men.

In the end, physical attraction is a personal thing that is affected by emotion. So if they are attractive enough so you are not turned off by a person, chances are if you end up falling in love with that person, the level of attraction you feel towards them will only rise. For example, I know my fiance is a little overweight. He has quite a pot-belly, which is not generally considered sexy. Yet because I love him so much, he's extremely attractive to me, belly and all. I even consider it cute!

So, while appearance is important, it's not the only criteria for judging a person. And if someone does judge solely by looks, they really should beware lest they be judged by the same standards.

I could generally agree with this I think. If I like the person well enough, the physical flaws inherent in being human become less notable and sometimes fade entirely. I'm not blind to the fact that my girlfriend has a less than idealized breast size or what have you, it just doesn't matter to me because I like her.

By contrast, in a past relationship, my then girlfriend was closer to the idealized woman and because I didn't really like her (I was honestly exhausted by her presence) the relationship was jettisoned. Physical attraction is certainly important, but the honest truth is that, if someone likes a person as a person their flaws become far less important.

 

[Exia91]

I'm a rabid feminist with an evil vagenda..

I'm a woman, have been for as long as I can remember.

I'm not a psychologist, I just play one on the internet.

The day only just started for me, and I already feel it's going to be a great day! Love the puns and jokes. Thanks!

OT:

Yes, I used the search function and got a bunch of threads like 'how to talk to women', 'why nice guys finish last' and the like, plus comments in other threads where this has popped up. I don't think there's anything similar enough that I should have posted in there, but if that turns out to be the case, I apologize and will accept any punishment you see fit to deliver unto me.

I cannot thank you in any kind of way for putting this up. Finally the other side of the story, well written, understandable for any reader, and 'complete'. I hope from now on that we can close down these Relationship threads. Atleast of the kind: "Boohoo, I'm not loved!"

Speaking as a man, I agree with you.

Your reply, kind and smart Sir, pretty much covers what I would have liked to reply. Also, thanks for the joke.

 

[RaphaelsRedemption]

im sorry to say this but, it is your instinct to favour the ALPHA MALE, so even though your concious mind is saying i hate that jerk, your sub concious mind is attracted to them, on a level you cant control.

take whatever shot you want at me now.

Ok, I'll let that assertion go.

But now let me ask this:

I've seen a fair amount of bitterness on the site, men who have been snubbed by women, or put in the "friend zone", or just completely ignored. There is often an implied message that women do this deliberately.

Now, if women cannot help themselves, if on a subconscious level they have to flock to the "Alpha Male"; who is, mind you, never the guy posting on the net, then why is there this bitterness towards women? Surely they are only doing what their programming tells them to?

You see, if you say women deliberately spurn "nice guys" because they consciously choose jerks, you are generalising. But if you say women automatically choose jerks because their biology is telling them so, you are both generalising and saying being bitter about it is stupid. Because who could get upset about girls' choices then? It's in their biology!

 

[zehydra]

Bear in mind that what most "nice guys" call "jerk" means in reality "confident guys who can get laid", and since them treating women "nice" don't get them laid, so "jerks" must be treating women bad to get them into their sack. The thing is, most "nice guys" aren't nice: they are needy, wimpy, stalkerish, secretive, have poor self-esteem

needy, wimpy (subjective), stalkerish, secretive and having poor self-esteem all have nothing to do with "not being nice".

 

[Jewrean]

im sorry to say this but, it is your instinct to favour the ALPHA MALE, so even though your concious mind is saying i hate that jerk, your sub concious mind is attracted to them, on a level you cant control.

take whatever shot you want at me now.

This guy gets it. It doesn't matter how intelligent you are or how controlled your emotions are, we are all slaves to our bodies urges. It's not sexist to say that all girls are attracted to jerks (jerks in this case being defined as the Alpha Male I suppose) because biologically, yes you are. Unless all of a sudden you are a sentient life-form that doesn't need to copulate. Of course if that was true you would no longer be a woman now would you?

It's not like we are trying to demonize women for all having the same mind, men are slaves to biological urges too.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

im sorry to say this but, it is your instinct to favour the ALPHA MALE, so even though your concious mind is saying i hate that jerk, your sub concious mind is attracted to them, on a level you cant control.

Most 'jerks' are betas not alphas. Watch them in their own social set and see them scurry for the approval of their alpha. Always worth a laugh.

 

[Hiraeth]

"I'm of the 'well if you're not confident and you don't love yourself, then how can you expect someone else to fall in love with you' camp."

While I mostly agree with OP, this line right here doesn't make a lot of sense.

I'm not sure how else to explain it, how about, if you have confidence in yourself, other people will notice, and be more likely to find you attractive than if you're constantly second guessing yourself and have no faith in your own abilities. It's a turn of phrase that I guess didn't come across clearly.

im sorry to say this but, it is your instinct to favour the ALPHA MALE, so even though your concious mind is saying i hate that jerk, your sub concious mind is attracted to them, on a level you cant control.

take whatever shot you want at me now.

I shall refute you with SCIENCE!

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=birth-control-pills-affect-womens-taste

and

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18077810/ns/health-livescience/

Basically women are attracted to different types of men during different points in their menstrual cycles - when ovulating they're attracted to manly men, or alpha males. When they're pregnant they're more likely to choose someone a little different. For a long term partner they are more likely to choose someone with less 'masculine' characteristics.

From an evolutionary perspective this makes sense - the woman reproduces with the manliest men, producing the offspring with the strongest genetic makeup. Then she secures herself a partner who will be better at raising the child. This is one theory about what scientists think might have led to the evolution of concealed ovulation in humans.

Considering the above, it'd make more sense for women to be looking for longterm relationships with 'nice guys' instead of 'jerks'. Especially if they're taking the contraceptive pill which tricks the body into thinking they're pregnant, as they'll be looking for someone to help raise their 'baby'.

Obviously this all changes with condoms. I don't actually necessarily agree with all of it, and it's not something that I consider when going into a relationship most of the time. I'm not saying that the whole thing about alpha males is wrong, per se, but I definitely think it's not a legitimate defense for the 'women love jerks' camp.

I realize I'm using 'they', but I sort of wrote that whole thing in my essay voice, so please forgive me.

 

[Jewrean]

When your "opinion" is that every girl is a brainless moron that doesn't see anything wrong with being taken advantage of, yes, people are going to disagree with you. That's not "jumping on the bandwagon", unless perhaps you consider common sense to be a bandwagon.

If every girl you've ever met is like that and no one appreciates you for you, then either you need to move to a different neighbourhood and meet some new, decent people, or you need to reevaluate yourself and decide if you're a person you would even want to hang out with.

Since when did I say they were brainless morons? I said they were brainwashed simpletons. Then I said to use your brains. We all need to. We are all brainwashed simpletons when it comes to being slaves to our biological urges. Including you and I. Would you like to dispute that?

I'm sick of people making assumptions without first reading or asking / clarifying. You ASSUME I'm a sexist pig. Which is exactly the problem, a context has been established and anyone going against the grain is deemed as the enemy.

Also, yes I do live in a pretty shoddy neighbourhood and I'm not going to boast about my 'niceness' (seeming as there is no way to accurately measure that). My problem is that the only girls I meet are in night clubs or on dating websites. Both are poor choices to meet people with decent personalities (ON AVERAGE).

Sorry, but that's all I can really add here without going into the "Cynical" and "Bitterness" files. Apparently, being cynical or bitter is something I'm not supposed to do.

It's a sad day when people on an internet forum cannot express how they are feeling. Apparently we are the bad guys in this particular arguement. Let's of course make no mention of other segregation's (including women) who do EXACTLY the same thing without retort.

 

[ilspooner]

Agreed sister! The sort of person I would like to meet is someone like you described, someone who is nice and caring, but doesn't try to suck up to me enough that he can get me in bed.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

I really haven't got a clue what women want. I've seen them date men, and women, of all caliber and trying to figure out what they want confuses me endlessly.

Finding out what a specific woman wants is easy. Trying to find out what women want is pointless and impossible because they're not all hooked into a hivemind.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Theres a simple reason as to why women like jerks.

When you are nice to them (women) all the time, it seeps in to their subconcious that their boyfriend doesnt think they are capable of even the most simplist tasks. When, on occasion, men are jerks or act in a jerk like fashion the women will see that the man thinks of her as someone closer to his level, an equal if you will.

Its actions and examples like this that allow women to retain their independance even while in a relationship, rather than feel smothered by someone who is always nice and considerate. It's the feeling of freedom.

 

[CardinalPiggles]

im sorry to say this but, it is your instinct to favour the ALPHA MALE, so even though your concious mind is saying i hate that jerk, your sub concious mind is attracted to them, on a level you cant control.

take whatever shot you want at me now.

Ok, I'll let that assertion go.

But now let me ask this:

I've seen a fair amount of bitterness on the site, men who have been snubbed by women, or put in the "friend zone", or just completely ignored. There is often an implied message that women do this deliberately.

Now, if women cannot help themselves, if on a subconscious level they have to flock to the "Alpha Male"; who is, mind you, never the guy posting on the net, then why is there this bitterness towards women? Surely they are only doing what their programming tells them to?

You see, if you say women deliberately spurn "nice guys" because they consciously choose jerks, you are generalising. But if you say women automatically choose jerks because their biology is telling them so, you are both generalising and saying being bitter about it is stupid. Because who could get upset about girls' choices then? It's in their biology!

i agree, its not fair, and it should change.

also there are a lot of factors that help us choose, i was just pointing out the two that make the most difference, (for males and females).

 

[dorkette1990]

Sing it, sister! Really, good job of summing it up.

 

[zehydra]

"I'm of the 'well if you're not confident and you don't love yourself, then how can you expect someone else to fall in love with you' camp."

While I mostly agree with OP, this line right here doesn't make a lot of sense.

I'm not sure how else to explain it, how about, if you have confidence in yourself, other people will notice, and be more likely to find you attractive than if you're constantly second guessing yourself and have no faith in your own abilities. It's a turn of phrase that I guess didn't come across clearly.

All that matters then, is the display of confidence. A person could be constantly second guessing themselves but also simultaneously putting up a mask to hide their insecurities.

Depending on what guy you talk to, the reverse is not true for women, btw. Many guys find shy girls attractive.

 

[PrimoThePro]

First of all, well said. Second, your confidence may intimidate some of the other Escapists, so I will take the liberty and touch base on a few of the points you made, so you can get a better understanding of where they are coming from.

Yes, many of you probably have met awful women in your lives. Maybe they were rude to you when you were just trying to be chivalrous, maybe they treated you like a combined butler and atm. Maybe you got stuck in the friend zone while they dated someone who you could see was never going to treat them right. I am not denying that these women exist, I've even met some of them. I don't think I'm one of them, and for the most part my friends aren't either.
With that in mind, I hope I have made it clear that I realize that not all guys think like this. Sadly the few that do have managed to piss me off that I decided to come on here and yell for a bit. So in the spirit of growing as people, I'd like to suggest that we stop generalizing and move on.

Ya, there are those women, but it doesn't end there. The women who treat guys like objects can seriously ruin the life of a man. (I understand guys use women like objects, but hear me out)
These women take a nice guys heart, make him care for her, and then use him like an emotional crutch, teasing him into believing she likes him, when really all she wants is essentially all he can give, without giving in return, such as a relationship. One of my friends has had the worst time of it, only meeting these Succubi, where one went so far as to prevent him from having relationships with any girls at all, because she just wanted him to be there for her with no reciprocation.

A quick note on confidence: Yes, confidence can be sexy, which is one explanation for why jerks get laid. I'm of the 'well if you're not confident and you don't love yourself, then how can you expect someone else to fall in love with you' camp. Get confidence in yourself, make your own friends, get involved in your own hobbies, take care of your appearance etc. and when you least expect it you'll probably meet someone who thinks you're awesome and wants to be a part of your life. Personally I think that's a pretty good strategy regardless of gender.

Remember how I said my friend got used? One run in with a woman like that annihilates a man's confidence. From personal experience, it can take years to build it up again, let alone show it off to the opposite gender. I feel like I'm railing on the fairer species. Don't get me wrong, all I'm trying to do is show what these guys are feeling, and hope that you don't get too mad at their irrational fears. Oh, and by no means am I speaking for all of them. Back on topic. But if you were to find a guy who isn't confident, it isn't because he doesn't love himself, it is because he has put up walls to defend himself from those who would manipulate him. Guys like that need a strong person to pull them out of their doldrums. Sadly, what you say is true, and no woman finds a man like that attractive. But assume, with me, that you find a guy like this, and are pulled to him for some inexplicable reason. Pull him out of his stupor, and you find a unique individual with many hobbies and pastimes he will be willing to share with you, oh, and his confidence may blow you away. (Along with the fact that he's just a cool dude.)

So, what do you guys think? Do women actually like jerks, do they hate jerks, do we need to move on from this whole stupid thing, are feminists ruining everything for everyone, do I need to get my butt back in the kitchen, are we actually all slaves to our biology and really just looking for the strongest potential mates, do I need a poll for this thread? I'd love to hear your opinions. Thanks for reading.

Personal opinion:
No, no, yes, yes, absolutely not, I dearly hope not, nah, it's good the way it is.
In summation, yes, those guys can be annoying when they say all women like the jerks, but take a mo' and consider that many of them went through something terrible that maybe not everyone is aware of. Perhaps his experience with women has been so... awful that there is no way you could comprehend it because there is no way you would act like that.

 

[Jewrean]

In summation, yes, those guys can be annoying when they say all women like the jerks, but take a mo' and consider that many of them went through something terrible that maybe not everyone is aware of. Perhaps his experience with women has been so... awful that there is no way you could comprehend it because there is no way you would act like that.

THANK-YOU! Major respect

I'm getting the equivalent of being crucified for talking about my personal experience.

I hope some of these people that think they are on a moral high-horse do this to women who complain "all guys are scum". Because otherwise these same people are the ones that are sexist. :/

 

[Athinira]

I recommend people read some David DeAngelo (probably one of the best dating/women-gurus there is) about this subject to better understand it.

In fact, his latest newsletter is ironically actually about why women date jerks (dumped in my mailbox yesterday). I can't quote the entire mail for Copyright-reasons (even though the newsletter is free), but i can pull out some important parts:

So, WHY DO WOMEN BECOME ATTRACTED TO JERKS? The short answer is that they don't CHOOSE it,
it's something that just HAPPENS.

ATTRACTION ISN'T A CHOICE.

It's an emotional response to certain things.

(......)

I realized that JERKS do, in fact, attract hot women.

Selfish behavior, as unhealthy as this might sound, often makes women feel attracted to you.

Sarcasm, ball busting, playing hard to get and all kinds of other "illogical" things really do work when it comes to attracting women.