Does TES need an overhaul of combat?

[KoudelkaMorgan]

Oddly enough I would feel more immersed in a 3rd person only TES game with Dark Souls style combat. I would see the character I made all the time, I would be more aware of what isn't right in front of me like a real person.

I would feel more invested in the combat if I thought I had more direct control over its outcome by my weapon choice mattering, my agility, timing, tactics, and positioning actually being used.

Currently its just, abuse stealth or ranged, or deciding against that I run righ tup to them and spam power attacks until I'm out of stamina while occasionally blocking or backing up slowly to pathetically dance out of range.

Assuming its not an ice mage or uber aim bot archer that can one shot me even with max AC and RES/Absorb.

Failing a one shot I have all the potions I could ever need. At least in MMOs etc you have a cooldown on how many potions you can chug, or if you can even do it while in combat.

Restoration is a perfectly valid school of magic, if you can't be bothered to grind up some wheat and blistercap for free or close enough.

If I am using a warhammer, I want to be able to knock bandits on their asses or flying away from me.

I want armor to actually effect the damage I do on a target, and possibly effect my weapon choice. Huge guy with a tower shield can pretty much negate all but the most well aimed/timed arrows but magic might take him down.

Unless its enchanted, then I will need to use a mace to smash him or get in close to back stab them in their joints.

Agile enemy? A 2 handed weapon that uses broad sweeping attacks should help, or maybe a poison cloud.

I mean a lot of these things could easily be implemented in 1st person. Bethesda just seems totally opposed to having a game where your gear choice actually matters, where one weapon type actually behaves more than slightly differently than all the others, your skill training in one combat style makes you better or worse against enemies that have vastly different strategies.

Hell the random bandits in Borderlands 2 can manage to coordinate, take cover, and dodge your attacks quite handily, so why are the ones in every TES game such morons?

That game is in first person, and built for shooting, and arguably has BETTER MELEE than Skyrim. You hit someone, and they react to it. You shoot someone and they feel it. I see a pack of wolves in Skyrim? Or even a couple bears? No problem. But if I had to kill a Badass Pyre thresher in Skyrim I'd be pretty fucked.

Mostly because there would be something other than the most pathetic enemy in the game that is immune to fire and it can attack you in any direction with ranged and melee at the same time with no warning.

 

[Joccaren]

actually now that i think about this more, this is a stupid topic. it's like complaining that the driving in a GTA game is horrible because it's not Gran Turismo.

More like complaining about Big Rig Truckers driving because of its non-existent AI and incredibly simplistic controls. Its the same sort of thing in TES for combat. The enemy AI is pants on head retarded 90% of the time, and there is little substance to the combat beyond "Press one button until enemy dies".

 

[snave]

Yes combat in TES does suck, but explorating the world is the main draw of the game. However exploring Bethesdas worlds gets rather stale after a while so having a good combat system would help in that regard.

That or revisit Vardenfall.

The issue with the world getting stale isn't even so much that the overworlds from Oblivion and Skyrim are too mundane. It's that things like cave systems and ruins are all built from the same prefab pieces and texture templates, and none of these are kept in reserve until later in the game. Consider that even the Shivering Isles Expansion's overworld content even became dull after a while despite being just as fantastical as that of Morrowind. Then compare that too the more linear progression back in the old Tribunal Expansion which gradually unlocked more texture sets. The most interesting part of Oblivion for instance was the painter's quest because it was unique. Morrowind sidestepped this problem not just by having more terranes, but implicitly by having Ghostgate essentially level lock out content until late-game.

But I'd agree that combat needs improvement. I think even level locking more monsters (scaling within pre-set bounds based on region for instance) could be a solution to preventing players from exhausting all the content too quickly.

 

[Hagi]

Snip

You took me a bit more seriously than I would have preferred.

What I meant was, kicking enemies and people is so entertaining in the game - it was really hard to convince myself to do anything else. The game does, really, have a very deep combat system that builds itself well in the case of different types of combat, and such. But why set a guy on fire when you could kick him through the fire, ignite him, and then kick him again into a wall of spikes?

Captcha: that's hot

Oh you, Captcha.

Ah, my bad. In that case I apologize. Internet and all you know, no intonation, no facial expressions, no tone of voice etc.

You're very much correct though, it was extremely satisfying to use your environment in the many inventive ways the game provided.

I fear I'll just have to admit for being just a little bit of a fanboy for Dark Messiah and all the defensiveness that comes with that.

 

[endtherapture]

I am so disappointed at the Hearthfire DLC and how they focus on crap like cooking, adoption, marriage etc.

I play TES to dick around in a fantasy world, not to manage a household and do boring crap like in the Sims.

So what your saying is you want a fantasy world, but you don't want the things that actually make the world something beyond a combat-area world, which considering you hate the combat one would think you would want less of that to do?

there is a reason crap like house mods, and cooking mods, and those "you need to eat/drink" mods are so popular.

Still have it there, just have it more integrated into the world/story so maybe I have a reason to marry/adopt/manage a household. For example the stronghold sections in Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter Nights 2/Dragon Age Awakening are pretty much resource/house management, but they've got interesting plots and storylines behind them, as opposed to Hearthfire which appears to be a chucked out DLC just to make houses, with no interesting story behind it.

You always harp on about how great and deep the lore of TES is - I'd like to see them use this lore for a change and try at least linking some things to this lore and telling some interesting stories - it'd make something some people find tedious interesting (since there's a story behind it) and it wouldn't spoil the experience for someone just wanting to manage a house.

 

[Megacherv]

The third person view for combat is a good idea. TES already has an option for 3rd person view, so fix that clunky thing and make a good combat system.

Alternative: make combat more like the combat found in DMOM&M. Then you can keep first person always and the game won't suck.

DMOM&M? What is that and how does the combat work?

It's Dark Messiah of Might & magic. It's a first person action spin-off from the M&M series.
Youtube could explain it best I think.

Now I can't help but think of the phrase 'Dark Messiah of M&Ms'

Yes, that is the one thing that made me not play Skyrim. I loved Fallout 3 to bits and have poured so much time into my character (100 hours into just one which for me is a long time). Yet I tried to play Skyrim and the combat just felt dreary and boring, and I felt the same about melée combat in Fallout 3. TES needs 2 major revamps: its save system and its combat system.

 

[The_Darkness]

Allow me to put it this way: If I could play Skyrim, with Dark Souls combat, I would have bought it by now.

Yes, one of the major draws of Bethesda games is to explore the world they've created. BUT I got my fill of that from Fallout 3. I need a sense of achievement in my games, and for me, just climbing to the top of a mountain isn't enough. Heck, defeating a dragon or slaughtering my way through an enemy stronghold wouldn't be enough. Why? Because the combat is... functional. Even in F3. There's no weight, no tactics. In F3 it's VATS the heck out of anything. In TES, it's wail away with a sword while using potions.

And as for stealth builds... There is NO challenge to stealth in F3, and, judging from my experience of stealth in Oblivion, none in TES either.

So yeah. Please Bethesda. I want to enjoy your games. Just make it so that the combat is more than functional.

 

[James Joseph Emerald]

Geralt gets much better in Witcher 2. Still rather monotone, but in a way that seems appropriate. Check this animated short (no spoilers)

I remember seeing that before, but it's hard to judge from trailers. Does the game maintain that level of atmosphere and depth throughout, or does it fall back on interchangeable characters dispensing interchangeable fetch quests which require constant back-tracking? I swear, Witcher 1 seems more like a jogging simulator with occasional swordfights.

Apart from upfront melee which can feel like i'm attacking things with a feather duster, the combat in TES is fine IMO. Sure it's not the best, but like i said, quantity over quality.

actually now that i think about this more, this is a stupid topic. it's like complaining that the driving in a GTA game is horrible because it's not Gran Turismo.

What's the point of quantity over quality in the context of a video game? That's essentially saying, "sure it's mostly mindless busywork, but there's a lot of it!" Who wants to pay for that?
What's the point of making a huge, detailed world when the mechanics are so dull you get bored before you've explored 25% of it?

If they just removed 10 of their pointless, unmemorable side-quests, or one of the towns, they'd probably have enough development hours to make brilliant combat (which, after all is the primary focus of the game, since most other forms of gameplay are merely designed to contribute to combat efficiency).

 

[The_Lost_King]

I think it should be like Vampire: the masquerade: bloodlines. You can run around in first person but when you go into melee combat the camera goes out into third person, but you still shoot in first person. I am just talking about the view though. VtMB didn't have the best of combat, it should have combat like the Witcher 2(haven't played Dark Souls so I can't say anything about that).

 

[Latinidiot]

Melee combat in TES needs fixing.

Magic's ok in Skyrim. Sucked in Oblivion.

Your kidding right? Their was few improvement for magic like necromancy, but the spells selection is severely lacking. For PC it is an easy fix with mods, but god help you if your on console.

Nope.

It's more fun in Skryim than in Oblivion. That constitutes improvement. Dramatic improvement, given how much it sucked in Oblivion.

Nope.

Without being able to make my own spells, Skyrim's magic was bland as fuck. No fun to be had there.
I had WAY more fun with magic in Oblivion. Skyrim is probably the worst TES game as far as magic goes since there are almost no options there...

Edit: It's too bad too. A missed opportunity. Dual Wielding magic COULD have been used to combine two different spells into something new on the fly, which would have been a good use of the system. Instead we get generic as fuck "more power, stagger, blah, blah, blah..."

While I agree that the magic in Skyrim was dissapointing in its variety and customization, it worked far better gameplay wise than in Oblivion, where selecting spells and using them was an utter chore. They did indee miss a golden opportunity to make a fantastic game based on magic, perhaps they get it right next time.

 

[evilneko]

Melee combat in TES needs fixing.

Magic's ok in Skyrim. Sucked in Oblivion.

Your kidding right? Their was few improvement for magic like necromancy, but the spells selection is severely lacking. For PC it is an easy fix with mods, but god help you if your on console.

Nope.

It's more fun in Skryim than in Oblivion. That constitutes improvement. Dramatic improvement, given how much it sucked in Oblivion.

Nope.

Without being able to make my own spells, Skyrim's magic was bland as fuck. No fun to be had there.
I had WAY more fun with magic in Oblivion. Skyrim is probably the worst TES game as far as magic goes since there are almost no options there...

Edit: It's too bad too. A missed opportunity. Dual Wielding magic COULD have been used to combine two different spells into something new on the fly, which would have been a good use of the system. Instead we get generic as fuck "more power, stagger, blah, blah, blah..."

What does it mean to combine magic? Magic plus magic is still magic.

 

[zenoaugustus]

Personally, I think the combat needs to be improved. But I don't think it needs a complete overhaul. I'm primarily a magic user (in most games, not just TES) and I loved the improvements made in Skyrim (the rest of the game kind of falls in comparison to other TES games, but the combat was much better). Of course, I'd love to make my own spells, but oh well, this use of two hands is so fluid. I think instead of having "One-Handed", "Two-Handed", and "Block" there should be different fighting styles. All of which feel unique. For instance, one fighting style is all about quick strikes, but there is a tree in it in which you ca use a shield. So the style would mostly use short swords (or daggers), but it could still be defensive if you leveled it the way you wanted. Things like that. If there were a couple fighting styles to choose from and customize (possibly somehow mix them) I think that'd do a world of good. You are right though, a real dodge key would improve the game a lot.

 

[Norrdicus]

I remember seeing that before, but it's hard to judge from trailers. Does the game maintain that level of atmosphere and depth throughout, or does it fall back on interchangeable characters dispensing interchangeable fetch quests which require constant back-tracking? I swear, Witcher 1 seems more like a jogging simulator with occasional swordfights.

Long Witcher-related reply

Spoiler

Atmosphere? Yes, that cutscene is a very good measure. Depth? You have not seen the half of it.

Characters have improved, most quest characters are as memorable as let's say Adda or Dandelion (although Dandelion is a much bigger character in Witcher 2).

There are monster elimination quests, but they are never "get X amount of Y monster drop" except for ONE joke quest where you gather around a hundred harpy feathers. To complete this routine witcher work, you must now find out the source of the problem. The "single-player MMO" type quests are gone.

Now.. Act 2 main quest chain of Witcher 2 is pretty much half fetch-quests. You need to gather 2-3 very rare magical items to progress, however, it is well paced with a lot of actually vital stuff happening as you go and find the locations of these items. Massive amounts of backstory, plot, and new characters relevant to this plot.

Not only that, but where you decide to get some of the items you need, will affect the story in some way. 2 words: royal blood. You just KNOW that's not going to be simple to get.

Since every act has 1 "quest hub" and no quick travel, you'll see some backtracking, but not nearly as annoying or long as Witcher 1.

Remember Feros, in Mass Effect 1 with the mind-controlled colonists? Witcher 2 backtracking is often on that scale, except no Mako of course (and shorter distance) and usually there are less enemy respawns

 

[gim73]

No, combat in TES is just fine. They've been tweaking it for years, and skyrim has been a great upgrade to it. It used to be that the pause trick could only make you able to drink four potions. Also trying to do stuff with depleted stamina would make you fail much more often. Oh, and running around in heavy armor would be a constant drain on stamina, which would make you suck when you were trying to bring your heavy into combat.

I don't see stealth as overpowered. Hey, you gotta invest alot of time on it, and some enemies just seem to see right through it no matter how high it gets. There are actual factors to affect it like are you wearing shoes, or are you running? You have to worry about line of sight and shading.

If you like Dark souls, then play dark souls. TES has a larger fan base and will continue to put out games we love for a long time.

 

[Leonardo Huizar]

IF TL;DR JUST READ THE LAST SENTENCE

I think i can only put in to words with my own experiences with Skyrim & Oblivion on how i dont agree with OP

As a "Melee":
Against another melee basic attacks, if they guard i blast them with a magic attack usually withering touch or close range elemental blast because that cant be guarded. If they look like theyre about to swing i keep my distance especially if they are ready to power swing at me which then i return with my own power swing. Against the ghosts in oblivion it helps to have a silver, deadra, or magic weapon

Against more than 1 melee, i have to spread my focus and start swinging at the one who tries to recover from a power attack. Then after killing the first, repeat until its one on one

Against a "long range"
I keep my distance and juke [side step] out the opponent from shooting at me. Since theres no machine guns in TES this is a really easy thing to do to avoid damage when at long range. Then when theyre recovering, charge in and start the beat down

Against more than 1 long range it helps to keep one between me my character and an archer because it forces an archer or a mage to shoot his ally before it gets me

I mostly use stealth kills before any of the above and if im caught then i do the above mentioned. The arrows are really good in Skyrim when you are trying to distract an enemy if there is more than one that i probably cant take down on my own.

Hirelings are the worst at stealth unless you have an archer, because warriors and mages just charge in [AND HORSES DO THIS TOO AND GET KILLED IN THE PROCESS!]. Yeah, they are good to have but i prefer to finesse my way through, and not get in any unnecessary throw downs.

Dragons are easy, theyre just big targets, and it helps to hit them with long range attacks when they get away from you

Atronochs i usually go for the stealth kills

Using an enchanted, magic, mystic, or poisened attack can disable nearly any enemy including using a strong lightning spell will disarm any mage. Also using a strong enough stamina attack will paralyze almost any enemy and leave them at you mercy

It also helps to have a knowledge of the elemental affinities that most enemy characters would be resistant to, or common racial strengths and weakness as well
Dark Elves are tough against fire
Nords are tough against ice
Bosmer are tough against poison & disease
Bretons have 25% magic resistance
Redguards are tough against poison
Kajiit do 4x unarmed damage
Ice dragons are weak against fire and tough against ice
Fire dragons are tough against fire and weak against ice
Frostbite Spiders use poison attacks
Chaurus are armored/longrange versions of the spiders
Falmer use Poisoned weapons, healing items, have a higher average stealth and tend to not be caught in the perception gauge, and are usually accompanied by Chaurus
Vampires attack with the vampirism disease and theyres always a chance to get hit with it, so it helps to deal with them long range, have a cure disease item, go to the nearest chapel, or be a werewolf. Also playing as a full vampire forces you to change playstyles in order to acclamate to the new strengths and weaknesses
Turning into a Werewolf also changes your strengths and weaknesses. Your tougher, stronger, move faster long distances, and eat your victims to continue. BUT you cant transform when in a town where NPCs will see you or youll be wanted and the guards will try to kill you on sight, the werewolf is too big to fit through doors, you become big target especially if theyres a bunch of enemies attacking while you transform

SO, in conclusion: Skyrim is not that hard to get through as here are a variety of ways to deal with the enemy NPCs, AND if thats not good enough you can either remember all the stuff i mentioned, play it on a harder setting, or play it on an easier setting

 

[endtherapture]

SO, in conclusion: Skyrim is not that hard to get through as here are a variety of ways to deal with the enemy NPCs, AND if thats not good enough you can either remember all the stuff i mentioned, play it on a harder setting, or play it on an easier setting

Doesn't help that it's super boring on every single setting no matter what you do.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Doesn't help that it's super boring on every single setting no matter what you do.

I don't know, fighting Dragons that can three hit you despite a 80% damage resistance, and 45% base magic resistance with a 30% change to negate all spells, it fairly entertaining.