Does TES need an overhaul of combat?

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Joccaren

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Mar 29, 2011
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WoW Killer said:
You shouldn't be getting one-shotted. Alteration can reach the same mitigation cap as both Light and Heavy (while having better magic resistance), so the only difference might be lower HP. It does take a ludicrous amount of time to kill anything like this on Master though, you've got that right.
Dragon Priest can one hit you quite easily as a pure destruction mage
Kinda missed the point of pure destruction mage. Using all sorts of magic, its not that hard. Using destruction only it becomes quite difficult.

Well... I should say Two-hand + One-hand + Bow + Light + Stealth. More of a weapon master build. I take a sword and a greatsword and use them both. Then with the Armed to the Teeth mod I look like a total badass
Hehe, nice.
I'm slightly curious as to how that mod works though. If I have, say, 20 silver swords 'cause I've just been looting in my inventory, how does it decide what to display and what not to display?
Most effective weapon, user designated, at random?
 

WoW Killer

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Joccaren said:
Kinda missed the point of pure destruction mage. Using all sorts of magic, its not that hard. Using destruction only it becomes quite difficult.
So the game is probably unbeatable without taking one of Alteration, Light armour or Heavy armour. I'm not going to argue with that. But why would somebody want a build without one of those? Like I say, you get so many perks that you'd be mad not to go down one of those lines. I mean my current build takes both one and two handed lines, which would be seen as superfluous from a min/max perspective.

Joccaren said:
Hehe, nice.
I'm slightly curious as to how that mod works though. If I have, say, 20 silver swords 'cause I've just been looting in my inventory, how does it decide what to display and what not to display?
Most effective weapon, user designated, at random?
It's a bit of a hack job unfortunately. You need to configure for yourself what gets displayed where. It's based on what you've previously equipped though. If you've set it up right then anything with the same 'slot' should replace what was there before. So cycling through 20 swords you'd still have just the one showing. But equip a greatsword then a regular sword and you'll see both display at once. What it does is creates a dummy weapon that it equips like a quiver when you unequip something.

There's a few bugs; invisible weapons, wooden weapons (where the damage goes right down and you hear a wooden 'clunk' when you swing it), mostly when you reload. Most things you can sort if you just unequip and re-equip your weapons. Like I've got the greatsword on 1, the sword on 2 and then bow on 3, so I just press 123123 real quick and everything should be fine.

Now I'm going to have to see if I can get my mage with a Staff on her back. Just for show of course.
 

Joccaren

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Mar 29, 2011
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SajuukKhar said:
Which still makes the longbow inferior to the daedric bow.
Which no-one was denying, or have you misread something?

You are aware that enemies can find you if you use the shout that is made to distract because it creates "noise" on your character? Also, the fact that you have to wait to do the same thing that a Daedric bow can do without waiting further shows the inferiority of the lower class bow.
Yep, which is why you're careful with how you use it.
And once again, never said Long Bow was as effective as Daedric, just that even using a Longbow the stealth ranger can still be OP.

Few FPS do that, very few, And again, most RPgs dont do that unless its in some special mode like NEw Vegas's hardcore mode.
*shrugs*
Few FPS focus on singleplayer, and these days they're even starting to cut AI out of the mix all together - no surprise that most FPS don't bother with stuff like that.
And a number of RPGs will give enemies new abilities to use, dependent on which RPGs you play, and I wouldn't say its most that don't [Unless we're counting games with RPG elements, but that's another story].

I think you need to reread what it is exactly what you typed
*snip*
First off, the point of "mods should edit the game to suit the players want", is exactly what TES does now by allowing people to mod in whatever systems they want.
Never denied that, in fact, I'm the one who said that's the way it is.

Secondly, complexity is subjective, one could argue that making enemies have more HP, and do more damage would cause you to have to dodge/block more, thus making the game more "complex" because you didn't have to do those things in earlier difficulty levels because of enemies low hp/damage output.
Maybe from easy to medium, but after that you'll likely be blocking occasionally and dodging anyway. Having to do it more often isn't exactly changing anything, its just dragging out the fight.

Thirdly, the two "If a player" sentences you have are how Skyrim works already, and the "for this reason" sentence isn't supported by the previous sentences at all. Your entire argument was a mess of contradiction.
Again, you're making no sense.
Yes, the two "If a player" sentences are how Skyrim works now. That was intended.
The "For this reason" sentence is a "This is how it SHOULD work", which is what I put there.
I had also justified this in my explanations of how things do and should work. In short:
As is: Players can increase tedium of battles by self imposed limits, i.e: Only use an iron sword the whole game, or through difficulty levels. Players cannot increase the complexity of the game's systems in the vanilla game in any way.
As it should be: Players can increase tedium of battles by self imposed limits, i.e: Only use an iron sword the whole game. Players can increase the complexity of the game's systems by increasing difficulty.
One cuts out options, one enables them. The one enabling them is, IMO, preferable.

Funny enough, I have one 460 gtx, 4 gigs of ram, and a 3ghz quad core... and had ZERO stuttering, and no CTDs that could be identified as caused by anything but mods. You are doing something wrong.
No mods, so maybe I just encountered different circumstances in my runthrough before the patches to what you did yours hmm? Considering I did nothing but install it, update drivers, and play - I fail to see how I'm doing something wrong.

As for it being "graphically unimpressive" go on top of the Throat of the World and look out on all of skyrim, calling that unimpressive, is BS.
Its as impressive as a picture drawn by my 6 year old cousin.
It looks like a smudged mess of colour with a cloud overlay, and coincidentally I was there just before writing this post.

The scale is impressive, how it looks is not. Whiterun looks like a flat set of boxes on the ground, Bleak Falls Barrow is probably the most visible feature thanks to also being on a mountain top, and it looks ok - at least with what is effectively the LOD draw distance increased through .ini tweaks - and most of the other major cities are either covered by clouds or almost indistinguishable from the surrounding terrain - which might I add looks like it was drawn in with a crayon.

Even after Bethesda's HD Texture Pack DLC, there is still a lot to be desired in the way of visuals. Pre that some parts of Skyrim looked distinct - for entirely the wrong reasons. Namely having 256*256 textures spread across a large rock so that it looks like my first paint project.

To say it wasn't good on consoles is frankly BS. I have yet to see console users complain about it. Everything past the line I stopped at, was option, and not fact.
I guess you and I disagree about what is good then.
If something is severely lacking in features, I don't count it as good. As I had said it was not flawed on a console, and it was as usable as a controller was likely to make it, but short lists with massive models taking up 1/2 the screen, details on items only showing up once said item was selected, lack of inventory sorting options and other such things leave me unable to call even the console UI good. It wasn't flawed, so people won't be complaining about it like they did on the PC, but its definitely not good.

-Firstly, the claim that DLC is different to mod is 100% false. The Dawnguard and Hearthfire DLCs were a simple BSA, and ESP, the same thing 99% other mods use. The DLC work EXACTLY like mods.
I wouldn't say 99% of mods, especially considering the number of graphics enhancement mods out there.
A number use .esps
A number edit ini files
A number request you to copy paste data files, or use the NMM if they're from Skyrim Nexus
It all depends on what the mod does.

-Secondly, many mods do have installers, and indeed, NMM is a installer program for mods that automatically places mods into folders they belong in, you act like you haven't modded since Morrowind, the "dicking around in the data files folder" you describe has LONG been a thing of the past, and mod makers wouldn't mind making installers, because they ALREADY make their mods NMM compatible.
Personally I've always found it quicker to just put the stuff in the Data folder myself, but now we're not talking just having mods available on consoles, but having Bethesda or Microsoft invest in making an installer for consoles too.
And no, mod makers would mind making installers. Arranging their files in a way that NMM will happily install them isn't making an installer. Making an installer is programming the NMM, which is something most mod makers aren't going to want to do.
-Thirdly, yes, it would EXACTLY be a "would you like to overwrite this file", seriously, this is EXACTLY what nexus mod manger does, are you in the dark ages of modding?
If Bethesda or Microsoft invested in making an installer.
-Or Microsoft could make its own version of the Steam workshop.
So now we're not just talking Microsoft letting mods be on Xbox, but Microsoft paying to have mods on Xbox. There is a difference here.

Then you are bad at making builds, or finding skills that work together, a good mage never has to use armor, alteration takes care of that.
That or I care more about having fun and enjoying myself than on min/maxing my effectiveness?

All builds are viable, what you are describing its a build though.
I'm going to assume you meant "Isn't a build though", as otherwise that makes no sense.
In this case, define a build, which is an argument I see getting into semantics and circular reasoning.
"Destruction Magic isn't a build", "Why not?", "It doesn't have synergy", "Why doesn't it have synergy?", "Because its not a build".

Really, in the context of "All builds in Skyrim are viable", it was meant as a "Any way you want to play the game, you can" comment, which is somewhat true, though destruction mages are severely gimped to the point of almost becoming non-viable in higher difficulties.
Otherwise its like saying "All classes are viable in this RPG" or "You can shoot all guns in this FPS" - well no shit, please, tell me something that isn't in every game.
 

Joccaren

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Mar 29, 2011
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WoW Killer said:
So the game is probably unbeatable without taking one of Alteration, Light armour or Heavy armour. I'm not going to argue with that. But why would somebody want a build without one of those? Like I say, you get so many perks that you'd be mad not to go down one of those lines. I mean my current build takes both one and two handed lines, which would be seen as superfluous from a min/max perspective.
I originally did it as I wanted to be the fireball hurling mage that travelled Skyrim saying "F*** you" to everything I came across. I dedicated all of my leveling to Destruction magic, with some inevitable light armour from getting hit. I never leveled alteration or restoration to actually be able to get the perks in them, and focused entirely on having an offensive arsenal - only to find that it didn't quite work, and became a test in patience and perseverance quickly. Other reasons could be for Role Play - you are a novice destruction mage from 'x', and you came to Skyrim seeking to learn more from the College of Winterhold.
Whilst yes, you can edit your character so they're a multi-magic type mage, that may not be what you wanted your character to be, and it might not fit in with the story you had ready for your character to participate in.

It's a bit of a hack job unfortunately. You need to configure for yourself what gets displayed where. It's based on what you've previously equipped though. If you've set it up right then anything with the same 'slot' should replace what was there before. So cycling through 20 swords you'd still have just the one showing. But equip a greatsword then a regular sword and you'll see both display at once. What it does is creates a dummy weapon that it equips like a quiver when you unequip something.

There's a few bugs; invisible weapons, wooden weapons (where the damage goes right down and you hear a wooden 'clunk' when you swing it), mostly when you reload. Most things you can sort if you just unequip and re-equip your weapons. Like I've got the greatsword on 1, the sword on 2 and then bow on 3, so I just press 123123 real quick and everything should be fine.

Now I'm going to have to see if I can get my mage with a Staff on her back. Just for show of course.
Hmm, I'll probably look into getting that once I restabilise my FPS. Too many mods and .ini tweaks really kill your FPS =/
 

Cyfu

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I actually don't mind the combat in TES, because I don't think Combat is it's main focus. Exploration and immersion is.
Exploration works better in first-person IMO.
I think it's easier to immerse myself in a world when the game is first-person.

It could be improved, yeah, but i don't think they should remove or focus less on first-person. It would destroy the whole game for me and a lot of people that like TES.
 

endtherapture

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Hafiz said:
Good lord, please don't give DA Origins the example of good story telling. It's terrible and predictable for a game that says that they are 'story heavy'.
And it's still tells the generic "hero's journey" far better than anything TES has done recently, so what does that say about TES?
 

FieryTrainwreck

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I think they need to decide if they want good combat or rare combat. Right now, it's neither. The current mechanics are mindless and boring; you just trade hits with stuff while quaffing the appropriate potions, or you abuse some ridiculously overpowered combination of abilities and trivialize everything. At the same time, you're constantly forced to engage in combat. Most quests and virtually all exploration ends up pitting you against dozens of the same idiotic mobs. Whereas fighting monsters in Dark Souls is a huge part of the fun, it only gets in the way of Skyrim's good bits.

So yeah, for the next game, they need to change something. I'm in the camp that says they should focus on what their games do well (exploration, roleplaying, quests/guilds/factions, etc.) while simply removing a majority of the combat entirely. What's wrong with exploring a tomb or cave and finding traps, puzzles, lore, treasure, npcs, and virtually no enemies? Then, when combat does occur, they could make it more immediate and dangerous. I'd much rather things were decided quickly, with my rapid decisions making a real difference, than a drawn out drinking contest posing as melee.
 

IamLEAM1983

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Aug 22, 2011
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Joccaren said:
What happened to being able to play your own way?
Does that not apply to people who like destruction magic?
Against large numbers of enemies with high HP, a pure destruction mage is going to have a battle that is even more tedious than normal - something that is inadvisable if you want people to try that playstyle.
The problem is that Beth seems to have sunk every form of magic into the same sink. They're expecting pure mages to actually branch out, but the problem is that pure mage builds are extremely tedious in the game's context. It takes forever before you've got enough Magicka to keep a ward or something like Ironflesh going, and most Conjuration spells gobble up a ridiculous amount of MP.

Pure mage builds are an exercise in patience and frustration (and repeated deaths) overall. On the other hand, anyone who even slightly goes mêlée on occasion is going to find things to be ridiculously easy.

Why bother trying to pelt that fucking elk with arrows when you can just sprint his way, catch up to the poor thing, and hack it to pieces before it runs off?
 

carpathic

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I have absolutely no desire to see combat get more in depth (read Harder). I enjoyed Skyrim much more than oblivion (where on level 50 a goblin could still hand you your ass).

I thought the combat in Skyrim felt intuitive and was quite fun - especially stealth kills!
 

JasonKaotic

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No it's not. Maybe mashing a mouse button is boring on a computer, but it feels a lot better with triggers on consoles. And there is more tactic to it than just mashing buttons until something in front of you dies. If that's what you do, you're pretty much doing it wrong.
Even if some people don't like it, a lot of other people do, and they shouldn't change the combat just because it's not as deep as other games' combat. Variety is good. Sometimes I want Skyrim's combat, sometimes I want Dark Souls' combat. Homogenization is bad.
And hey, at least it's not Morrowind's combat anymore. That really was broken.

Edit: And Skyrim's combat -is- satisfying, but in a different way. Sure Dark Souls makes you feel skillful, which is perfectly fine, but Skyrim makes you feel powerful as you get stronger. Some people like it like that.
 

lord.jeff

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FieryTrainwreck said:
I think they need to decide if they want good combat or rare combat. Right now, it's neither. The current mechanics are mindless and boring; you just trade hits with stuff while quaffing the appropriate potions, or you abuse some ridiculously overpowered combination of abilities and trivialize everything. At the same time, you're constantly forced to engage in combat. Most quests and virtually all exploration ends up pitting you against dozens of the same idiotic mobs. Whereas fighting monsters in Dark Souls is a huge part of the fun, it only gets in the way of Skyrim's good bits.

So yeah, for the next game, they need to change something. I'm in the camp that says they should focus on what their games do well (exploration, roleplaying, quests/guilds/factions, etc.) while simply removing a majority of the combat entirely. What's wrong with exploring a tomb or cave and finding traps, puzzles, lore, treasure, npcs, and virtually no enemies? Then, when combat does occur, they could make it more immediate and dangerous. I'd much rather things were decided quickly, with my rapid decisions making a real difference, than a drawn out drinking contest posing as melee.
I agree completely with this, as it is now every dungeon is just a trail of monotony where you get to take out the same dozen enemies in the exact same way in as the last. I'd rather have one or two unique and interesting encounters then a hundred Draugr just standing randomly around.
 

SweetLiquidSnake

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The combat in TES5 was fantastic, and their system has been progressing steadily since TES3. People who complain are probably just button mashers, usually the ones who spray and pray in FPS games.
For my archer I don't spam arrow shots up close, I pick people off and am incredibly stealthy, if shit goes down outcomes the dagger.
For my destructive one handed warrior I switch between different weapons, light attacks, power attacks, single or dual wield and spells. My combat looks great and is quite satisfying, i don't know about other peoples.
 

AT God

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Ocarina of Time has a more complex combat system than Skyrim; yes, if Bethesda wants to truly immerse people, we need more options than one attack button. Block and slash isn't a combat system worthy of making any money, no matter how many weapons you can use to block and slash. I cannot think of any other games that are triple AAA with that poor of a combat mechanic.

Let me mention something amusing I found earlier this year.

Thief The Dark Project came out in 1998, the melee combat featured three attacks. If you aimed to the left of your target, you would swipe from left to right, aiming right would do the opposite. Aiming directly at your target would do a vertical slash.

Skyrim features two attacks, one swipe, and one stronger swipe. (Additional swipes were unlockable but still required the same input, movement direction and hold down or tap a single button)
 

SajuukKhar

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AT God said:
Skyrim features two attacks, one swipe, and one stronger swipe. (Additional swipes were unlockable but still required the same input, movement direction and hold down or tap a single button)
Skyrim features 4 attacks actually

-Normal attack
-standing power attack
-Left/Right power attack
-Backwards power attacks

AT God said:
Thief The Dark Project came out in 1998, the melee combat featured three attacks. If you aimed to the left of your target, you would swipe from left to right, aiming right would do the opposite. Aiming directly at your target would do a vertical slash.
And skyrim has that exact same thing with power attacks, and has perks to alter the power attacks with new features.
 

endtherapture

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JasonKaotic said:
And Skyrim's combat -is- satisfying, but in a different way. Sure Dark Souls makes you feel skillful, which is perfectly fine, but Skyrim makes you feel powerful as you get stronger. Some people like it like that.
It doesn't really because everything levels with you in Skyrim.

Anthraxus said:
It's not just about how many attacks, or how complex the system is, but also the whole "feel" of it. The physics, the animations, the reactivity, the enemy AI.. I loved how different weapons would have different animations in Dark Souls, for instance.

I really don't understand anybody that says the combat in Skyrim is "fantastic". Have you not played any games ? Are your standards that low ?
I love how every single sword has unique properties. I'm not very far in but I've found swords which attack with large arcs but aren't good for enclosed spaces because they hit the walls, a sword which is stabby stabby like a spear so I can attack from behind my shield, and one which can thrust like the latter one and swing in an arc like a former. And that's only 3 types of swords, there's halberds and axes and stuff, it's so great compared to Skyrim where the only difference is damage and attack speed.
 

TwiZtah

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
The thing is, Dark Souls will always have an advantage over Elder Scrolls in that regard because it's a third-person game, whereas Skyrim is a first-person game with an optional third-person camera bolted on.

First-person is great for shooting. Shooting happens in straight lines, something the first-person perspective allows for. You pop a bullet, it travels in a straight line from you into your enemy. Simple stuff. However, first-person is absolutely crap for melee.

Melee combat isn't like shooting. Melee doesn't happen in straight lines, it happens in curves and arcs. When you swing a sword, for instance, you're swinging it from one side of your body to the other, in an almost 180 degrees arc. If you want to be able to actually hit anything, then you need to be able to follow that arc completely. Third person allows you to do that. First person does not. In first-person, only the height of the sword's arc is going to swing into your field of view. The rest of the time, the sword is off-screen, and therefore beyond your control.

Now before some smart alec responds to this, yes, I know that in real life melee combat is done in first-person, not some magical third-person. The difference is that if I were to get into a swordfight in real life, I have a host of options available to me that are not available to a videogame character. I can move my head independently of my body, for instance, whereas a VG character has both locked together. That means I can snap my view around to see who else is surrounding my, while still facing and defending against someone in front of me. I can respond to attacks from behind in a split-second, whereas a VG character is weighed down by how long it takes to turn around. I can track the entire movement of my weapons, whereas a VG character simply has a rectangle of vision where their weapons occasionally pass through.

The thing you mention in the OP is another important point: positioning. In third-person, you can not only see an attacker in front of you, you can see other enemies to the side and behind you. This allows you to prioritise targets and select which enemy you think is the biggest threat. In first-person, if someone sneaks up behind or to the left of you, you won't know until they hit you with their weapon. If you're a level 3 knight, and that enemy is a Troll with a massive club or mace, then you don't exactly stand much of a chance.

Lastly, third-person allows characters to have far more moves available to them than first-person characters. Just witness everything from Dark Souls to Ninja Gaiden to Devil May Cry. A third-person character can roll out of the way to avoid an enemy's jab, something that would be disorienting in first-person. They can pull off athletic moves like running along walls or jumping off enemies, something that would be nearly impossible to control in first-person. They can move around with a sense of gymnastics that makes first-person characters look slow and unresponsive in comparison.

In short, the best thing the Elder Scrolls games could do would be to ditch the first-person perspective for combat, and keep melee combat exclusively third-person. It would allow for a responsiveness and tactical awareness that simply doesn't exist in the games atm.

And before anyone quotes me on this: Yes I have seen Chivalry- Medieval warfare. A friend of mine has a copy. I think it sucks. The combat is not realistic at all. If you don't believe me, use your character to take a look at two other characters fighting. The weapons move without any sense of weight or momentum. They don't look like they're moving in a direction because momentum and gravity say so. They look like they're moving in a direction because that's the way the developers programmed them to. The combat is stilted, wieghtless and cardboard looking. The fact that the game is often hailed as the best example of melee combat in first-person only cements my belief that first-person is absolutely terrible for melee.
Look at Zeno Clash, that combat is AMAZING in first person, and so is Dark Messiah of Might and Magic. They had awesome combat and different weapon felt different, and not just faster or slower like in TES. A heavy weapon seemed to have some weight to it.