Feminism: has it gone to far?

[Estocavio]

snip

Paid less? Mind putting up some studies' results to back up your claim? Because I haven't really heard anything like that.

Not a problem, always willing to provide sources:

http://www.boston.com/news/health/blog/2010/03/equally_qualifi.html

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/womenspay.htm (this one's a little older, from 2002)

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1983185,00.html

Best quote: "Perhaps the most compelling ? and potentially damning ? data of all to suggest that gender has an influence comes from a 2008 study in which University of Chicago sociologist Kristen Schilt and NYU economist Matthew Wiswall examined the wage trajectories of people who underwent a sex change. Their results: even when controlling for factors like education, men who transitioned to women earned, on average, 32% less after the surgery. Women who became men, on the other hand, earned 1.5% more."

Also, no, it's not an assumption, it's documented fact. Bear in mind that women also on average get higher raises then men though.

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&q=women+are+paid+less+than+men&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=4ea4a308ac696def
Behold, how to get sources in favor of women! (I am NOT contradicting you, upon rereading that it sounded like a criticism. The point is, if you google the words "Man" "Women" and "Paid" you get that.
And yes, raises are higher, but more noteworthy is again the unemployment rate.

I know i may sound slightly vague, but then again, thats more the most prolific problem with discussions like this: Phrase one thing in a way that isnt thought out like no other, and your opening yourself up to being called a misogynist. It may not be an assumption as suggested, but the lack of anyone even trying to find any evidence to the contrary is suspicious in itself.

 

[Dr. Crawver]

I think there still needs some work done, for example there is still a pay gap in many professions where there is no difference between a man or a woman, but some do go too far. They seem to want men to go through what women went through before any of us were born. It didn't even happen to them. I can understand why many women are angry, I'm sure I would be as well, but they need to pick their battles, and not lash out at everythig they see as an injustice

 

[CardinalPiggles]

personally i dont think i am sexist, i would say for example hold a door open for a women or a man, by the way im not gay or bi if thats what ur thinking. i am however realistic, if i see a scrawny women trying to lift heavy objects, like at work when im working in the kitchen and i see a barmaid struggling to carry something to the bin i will offer to help, if she says no then i would say fair enough and not offer to help her with similar things in future.

 

[KoSTHB]

the justices system favors women, it doesn't matter if women is a drugged out she'll still get the kids in a custody case, or if you call rape on a man even if its a lie it will destroy the man reputation and prevent him getting jobs. i've seen these thing happen in my life so if women are equal then those thing would have to go as well.

 

[Harrowdown]

I've never liked this arguement. Sure, there's some oversensitivity and extremism within the feminist movement, but there's black supremacy movements too. Does that mean that black rights have "gone too far"? Truth is, there's still work to be done by feminists. Just because the law is supposed to guarantee equality, it doesn't mean that that's what they get. It's still tough for women to get through the glass ceiling, as they call it, and violent and sexual crime is targeted almost exclusively at women. Part of the problem for that latter point is simply down to men being naturally aggressive, but the perception as women as sexually and physically inferior certainly contributes to the problem.

 

[Sgt Doom]

It will never go far enough. There will always be misogyny and I laugh at those who say that women are 'equal' in the western world. I am fucking proud to be a feminist.

Being a feminist means to me is that maybe one day women will make as much money as men, that they will have more chances of being employed into high positions, that violence against women will stop being brushed aside, that we will stop living in a rape culture, that we will stop being seen as sex objects or baby making machines and that men will stop thinking themselves better than us.

Bloody hell, what kind of men have you encountered?
I can't name a single one of my mates, or indeed any male I know, who thinks anything like that.

That's because you're a man as well. Either you don't realize the sexism or you have the most angelic group of friends known to mankind. I've known police men who told a domestic abuse victim that she was making a mess out of nothing, I've been catcalled in the streets by strangers and groped in clubs by guys who thought it wasn't a big deal and I've had male teachers not hiding very well that fact they they largely favored the male side of the class. That's without counting all the various stupid shit that I've heard men say in my everyday life. Don't act so surprised because it happens a hell of a lot.

That kind of thing is practically unheard of here in Finland, it's just bizarre to me that such stuff still happens on a regular basis in Western nations.

 

[CardinalPiggles]

also id like to say thankyou stinkychops u said it very well, men are being judged by the worst kind of men in history or in the newspapers, hitlers and rapists for example, but id like to remind you of the fact that there is decency in men.

if anyone has seen russell howards good news, you will know. a boy of about 18 helped bring down a rapist by being an eye witness in court, he then recieved reward money for his bravery and efforts, and not only did he do all this for the victim, HE ALSO GAVE ALL HIS REWARD MONEY TO THE RAPE VICTIM.

if u think all men are pricks then fuck off.

 

[Doctor Insanovic]

come to Australia, where men are second class citizens. I hear New Zealand has it worse though. And English women are all Hitler from what I can tell, though that's not a legal equality thing, that's just a land of screwed up personalities. I get the feeling that a lot of husband-beating goes on over there.

interestingly enough, i hear tell of australian women being beaten by their husbands regularly.

oh I don't doubt that at all. ever heard of the term "bogan"? look it up, that's us in a nutshell.

 

[Blind Sight]

snip

Paid less? Mind putting up some studies' results to back up your claim? Because I haven't really heard anything like that.

Not a problem, always willing to provide sources:

http://www.boston.com/news/health/blog/2010/03/equally_qualifi.html

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/womenspay.htm (this one's a little older, from 2002)

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1983185,00.html

Best quote: "Perhaps the most compelling ? and potentially damning ? data of all to suggest that gender has an influence comes from a 2008 study in which University of Chicago sociologist Kristen Schilt and NYU economist Matthew Wiswall examined the wage trajectories of people who underwent a sex change. Their results: even when controlling for factors like education, men who transitioned to women earned, on average, 32% less after the surgery. Women who became men, on the other hand, earned 1.5% more."

Also, no, it's not an assumption, it's documented fact. Bear in mind that women also on average get higher raises then men though.

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&q=women+are+paid+less+than+men&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=4ea4a308ac696def
Behold, how to get sources in favor of women! (I am NOT contradicting you, upon rereading that it sounded like a criticism. The point is, if you google the words "Man" "Women" and "Paid" you get that.
And yes, raises are higher, but more noteworthy is again the unemployment rate.

I know i may sound slightly vague, but then again, thats more the most prolific problem with discussions like this: Phrase one thing in a way that isnt thought out like no other, and your opening yourself up to being called a misogynist. It may not be an assumption as suggested, but the lack of anyone even trying to find any evidence to the contrary is suspicious in itself.

Fair enough, I was somewhat lazy with my sources simply because most of my information comes from JSTOR, an online site that publishes academic journals. I'm pretty sure you need a sign-in profile to view the majority of the information, but I'll post'em anyway (wall of text, I apologize).

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4317032?searchUrl=%2Faction%2FdoAdvancedResults%3Fhp%3D25%26la%3D%26wc%3Don%26acc%3Doff%26gw%3Djtx%26jcpsi%3D1%26artsi%3D1%26q0%3Dwomen%2Bpaid%2Bless%2Bthen%2Bmen%26f0%3Dall%26c0%3D%26sd%3D%26ed%3D%26jo%3D%26dc%3DEconomics%26dc%3DFeminist%2B%2526amp%253B%2BWomen%2527s%2BStudies%26si%3D26%26jtxsi%3D26

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4316943?searchUrl=%2Faction%2FdoAdvancedResults%3Fhp%3D25%26la%3D%26wc%3Don%26acc%3Doff%26gw%3Djtx%26jcpsi%3D1%26artsi%3D1%26q0%3Dmen%2Bpaid%2Bbetter%2Bthen%2Bwomen%26f0%3Dall%26c0%3D%26sd%3D%26ed%3D%26jo%3D%26dc%3DEconomics%26dc%3DFeminist%2B%2526amp%253B%2BWomen%2527s%2BStudies%26si%3D51%26jtxsi%3D51

http://www.jstor.org/pss/189696?searchUrl=%2Faction%2FdoAdvancedResults%3Fhp%3D25%26la%3D%26wc%3Don%26acc%3Doff%26gw%3Djtx%26jcpsi%3D1%26artsi%3D1%26q0%3Dmen%2Bpaid%2Bbetter%2Bthen%2Bwomen%26f0%3Dall%26c0%3D%26sd%3D%26ed%3D%26jo%3D%26dc%3DEconomics%26dc%3DFeminist%2B%2526amp%253B%2BWomen%2527s%2BStudies%26si%3D76%26jtxsi%3D76

Also, although employment is higher for upper class women, there is still a huge issue with lower-class women and unemployment, due to their lack of education: http://www.jstor.org/pss/4149447?searchUrl=%2Faction%2FdoAdvancedSearch%3Fq0%3Dwomen%2Bpaid%2Bless%2Bthen%2Bmen%26f0%3Dall%26c1%3DAND%26q1%3D%26f1%3Dall%26wc%3Don%26Search%3DSearch%26sd%3D%26ed%3D%26la%3D%26jo%3D%26dc.Economics%3DEconomics%26dc.Feminist%2526amp%253BWomensStudies%3DFeminist%2B%2526amp%253B%2BWomen%2527s%2BStudies

 

[Canadamus Prime]

When they start demanding we change the titles of positions like alderman just because they have the word 'man' in them, then yes they have gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too far. I'm all for equality for women, but when you start wanting us to rewrite the entire English language, that's when I say STFU *****!

 

[Estocavio]

snip

Sniiiip

Though again, the main issue here is that everyone reads into the problems women have, but i am genuinely looking for ANY study that even looks at issues men have regarding the same problems.
Also, snipping for everyones benefit!

 

[Blind Sight]

snip

Sniiiip

Though again, the main issue here is that everyone reads into the problems women have, but i am genuinely looking for ANY study that even looks at issues men have regarding the same problems.
Also, snipping for everyones benefit!

Not really possible in academics right now unfortunately, most studies on gender or race tend to use white males as a template for proving how they're screwing everyone over haha. I blame the fact that we allow for fields like 'women's studies' yet have no male version. Also, certain female-focused fields deliberately use incorrect (or at least unfounded) evidence to support their claims.

I study history, and I view gender history as a very fair way to study gender relations, because it actually discusses male-female interaction within society rather then just use one or the other as a template for comparison. On the other hand, though, you've got Feminist History, which is seen as a joke by most historians. Feminist historians call the witch-burnings in Europe and North America the 'Women's Holocaust' often citing that anywhere from five million to seven million women were killed. This is completely unfounded, evidence suggests that it was somewhere between two hundred thousand and seven hundred and fifty thousand. Not to mention the fact that they ignore the fact that both straight and homosexual men were also burned as witches.

In academia there is a definite lack of male-oriented studies, most of the ones I come across usually involve race relations.

 

[DocBalance]

See, the problem with feminisim is that most feminists expect equality/superiority, AND chivalry. The way I see it, you can have one, or the other. You can't have both.

 

[Estocavio]

snip

Sniiiip

Though again, the main issue here is that everyone reads into the problems women have, but i am genuinely looking for ANY study that even looks at issues men have regarding the same problems.
Also, snipping for everyones benefit!

Not really possible in academics right now unfortunately, most studies on gender or race tend to use white males as a template for proving how they're screwing everyone over haha. I blame the fact that we allow for fields like 'women's studies' yet have no male version. Also, certain female-focused fields deliberately use incorrect (or at least unfounded) evidence to support their claims.

I study history, and I view gender history as a very fair way to study gender relations, because it actually discusses male-female interaction within society rather then just use one or the other as a template for comparison. On the other hand, though, you've got Feminist History, which is seen as a joke by most historians. Feminist historians call the witch-burnings in Europe and North America the 'Women's Holocaust' often citing that anywhere from five million to seven million women were killed. This is completely unfounded, evidence suggests that it was somewhere between two hundred thousand and seven hundred and fifty thousand. Not to mention the fact that they ignore the fact that both straight and homosexual men were also burned as witches.

In academia there is a definite lack of male-oriented studies, most of the ones I come across usually involve race relations.

In that case, we seem to be in complete agreement.
I wasnt expecting this
Quite refreshing

 

[hecticpicnic]

Ok...I don't want to start a war..or get shouted at...but I really think that feminism has gone a bit to far. I mean that I think that the feminists have done what they set out to do and now they are just trying to make them selves better then men.

Tell me what you think of feminism...and please don't flame me. Please?

this is old news,and has been parodied to death