Goddamnit Bioware
- Thread starter Trolldor
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I was about to launch into a lengthy counter argument but then I forgot my own advice back from the "Haters gonna hate" thread.
And since I can see the Protip coming, just because you avoided actually using the word doesn't make this any less of a hate thread.
So yeah, with my shoulders throughly shrugged.NickCooley said:
And since I can see the Protip coming, just because you avoided actually using the word doesn't make this any less of a hate thread.
I actually found the OP's post funny after reading who had posted it. Of course someone with troll in their name will never attempt to troll people over a popular topic via hate on a site that some people enjoy talking about the topic.
Also James Cameron elves? What?
My point is pretty much... TROLL PIT LOCATED PLEASE MOVE ALONG OR BE RAGED AT.
Edit: Off-topic: I just realise I got my 666th post... lol I'm not posting for a while now.
Also James Cameron elves? What?
My point is pretty much... TROLL PIT LOCATED PLEASE MOVE ALONG OR BE RAGED AT.
Edit: Off-topic: I just realise I got my 666th post... lol I'm not posting for a while now.
Wrong. People just like to talk more about the world than they like to describe the gameplay, even if the gameplay is the driving factor of the experience (even the best setting can be ruined completely by lousy gameplay).Trolldor said:
People still talk about Baldur's Gate because it has alot of replay value, og replay value has EVERYTHING to do with amazing gameplay, since any story/setting/world gets old after you've replayed it alot of times. If any game has amazing replay value, 75% of the reason is always because the gameplay is great (or at the very least adequate) enough to experience over and over again, even though you know what goes down. Thats why people can still play FPS games (CoD, CS) and MMO's over and over without getting tired and burned out.
Not that the above detracts from your point about Baldur's Gate having an absolutely amazing world and characters, which also makes it attractive, but if you think it has nothing to do with it's amazing gameplay (which i could compare point to point with, say, Dragon Age, and Baldur's Gate would win on almost every point) then you've earned yourself a big epic /facepalm.
Dragon Age 2 is BioWare's most accomplished game in terms of themes and characters.
Not a popular opinion, but I think it's worth saying after all the ridiculous hostility that game had to suffer.
Not a popular opinion, but I think it's worth saying after all the ridiculous hostility that game had to suffer.
Couldn't disagree more with the elves in DA2. I thought that the aesthetic was far better than usual. I'm sick of "pretty" elves. Also, stroke of genius voicing them over Irish (and welsh, though predominantly Irish!) as those accents fit elves better due to the language elves speak being derived of Welsh and Gaelic historically.
Couldn't disagree more with the elves in DA2. I thought that the aesthetic was far better than usual. I'm sick of "pretty" elves. Also, stroke of genius voicing them over Irish (and welsh, though predominantly Irish!) as those accents fit elves better due to the language elves speak being derived of Welsh and Gaelic historically.
Sorry, posted twice!
Sorry, posted twice!
That's an interesting position on this forum - how so? (Not arguing, just curious - I've never played DA2 and all I know about the story is the framing device.)LiquidGrape said:
Oh no I get what you've said roughly 70 times before in this thread (~50% of the posts, in other words) which is that you're not "hating on Bioware."Trolldor said:
Firstly I was announcing a general observation+opinion. However it WAS also directed at you because, don't beat around the bloody bush, you ARE hating on Bioware, aren't you?
You say Bioware haven't made a decent storyline since Baldur's gate 2. You may not like the Amazing Stories in Mass effect and Dragon Age, but that doesn't change the fact that they are some of the most lauded story arcs in recent gaming history. It's either excellent stuff like this or "Stubbly McShortBrownHair commits righteous Genocide of a foreign nation for America/FREEDOM!!". It's all just a little bit out of context is all I'm saying. "Don't know a good thing till it's GONE", if you know what I mean?
Also, I didn't see you and your
So I humbly request you to not jump on the "Dragon age 2 is satan-spawn" bandwagon. (btw, DA2's story? Not that bad at all. The first act is boring and repetitive, but overall it's really good allegory of alienation and societal double standards. Waaay better than "Stubbly shortbrown-you-know-the-deal-right?")
The level of entitlement of BioWare purists is astounding. In my book, if they bring up Baldur's Gate II again, they will lose all credibility for argument. I love BG II also, but I'm going to take the piss out of it in the OP's style (minus all the arbitrary cursing) just to prove a point that all of this recent hate over BioWare is unfounded, and that the Purists aren't really speaking from the moral high ground.
Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Nostalgia
Baldur's Gate II when viewed from a modern perspective can be seen as a very complex, unforgiving game with niche appeal at best. The game and its engine are a decade old. BioWare isn't going to keep making games of that type forever. I know plenty of people who were actually turned off from BGII because of its overly complex combat. The fighting system is brutal, with little intuitiveness or adaptability in its mechanics. What's behind that closed door? Why don't you open it and get absolutely destroyed by the eldritch horrors that just happen to make that single room home? Or, failing that, why don't you rest for 8 hours at the doorway so that your partys' wounds would magically re-knit, and your mages can actually be useful? Once they run out of spells, they literally have no use whatsoever. And many spells have lots of little particualities that you need to go blind reading over the spell descriptions to even get an idea of how they work.
Characterization? Don't make me laugh. Minsc starts as a goofy, stupid berserker and that's how he stays. Anomen has a stick up his ass from start to finish. Aerie whines. Jaheira is sassy. Imoen is moody. Jan is quirky and funny. Even Irenicus and Bodhi don't change in their evil despositions. All of the main characters are one-dimensional. BioWare purists hold them up as some of the greatest NPC's ever, but BioWare used the same formula for them as they do for Wrex, Tali, Ashley and Garrus ten years later. Even the level of interaction with these "amazing NPC's" mainly consists of reading text boxes. At least voicing full conversations helps with immersion. Reading text boxes really doesn't help with that.
I also hope that the "living worlds" that the OP holds up BGII involve more than city scapes with lots of people walking around with nothing to say, barring some asides where people actually talk to each other, because that's pretty much Athkatla. Nostalgia can color it as pretty as you want, but looked at from that angle, how it is different from Kirkwall, or the Citadel?
Take the piss out of BioWare now, and you're taking the piss out of everything they've done for the last ten years.
***
Have you ever noticed that far fewer people have played BGII than Mass Effect, even though BGII is handily available for digital download at GOG.com? It's because BGII serves a smaller crowd. And now that being a gamer is beginning to become popular, games can no longer get away with producing 2d games for relatively small numbers of people. BioWare can only make the stylized worlds it does now because it "dumbed down" from the overly complex narrative and combat of years past, but still delivered an amazing story with solid gameplay. BioWare purists might decry that BioWare no longer demands that the Fighters and Paladins have to stand exactly so far apart so that the Ancient Vampires don't run through and rip the Wizards apart, but I think that styles like that are best left in BG 2. It's a different era of gaming, just as the population of "gamers" is now different than it was in the days of the Child of Bhaal.
Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Nostalgia
Baldur's Gate II when viewed from a modern perspective can be seen as a very complex, unforgiving game with niche appeal at best. The game and its engine are a decade old. BioWare isn't going to keep making games of that type forever. I know plenty of people who were actually turned off from BGII because of its overly complex combat. The fighting system is brutal, with little intuitiveness or adaptability in its mechanics. What's behind that closed door? Why don't you open it and get absolutely destroyed by the eldritch horrors that just happen to make that single room home? Or, failing that, why don't you rest for 8 hours at the doorway so that your partys' wounds would magically re-knit, and your mages can actually be useful? Once they run out of spells, they literally have no use whatsoever. And many spells have lots of little particualities that you need to go blind reading over the spell descriptions to even get an idea of how they work.
Characterization? Don't make me laugh. Minsc starts as a goofy, stupid berserker and that's how he stays. Anomen has a stick up his ass from start to finish. Aerie whines. Jaheira is sassy. Imoen is moody. Jan is quirky and funny. Even Irenicus and Bodhi don't change in their evil despositions. All of the main characters are one-dimensional. BioWare purists hold them up as some of the greatest NPC's ever, but BioWare used the same formula for them as they do for Wrex, Tali, Ashley and Garrus ten years later. Even the level of interaction with these "amazing NPC's" mainly consists of reading text boxes. At least voicing full conversations helps with immersion. Reading text boxes really doesn't help with that.
I also hope that the "living worlds" that the OP holds up BGII involve more than city scapes with lots of people walking around with nothing to say, barring some asides where people actually talk to each other, because that's pretty much Athkatla. Nostalgia can color it as pretty as you want, but looked at from that angle, how it is different from Kirkwall, or the Citadel?
Take the piss out of BioWare now, and you're taking the piss out of everything they've done for the last ten years.
***
Have you ever noticed that far fewer people have played BGII than Mass Effect, even though BGII is handily available for digital download at GOG.com? It's because BGII serves a smaller crowd. And now that being a gamer is beginning to become popular, games can no longer get away with producing 2d games for relatively small numbers of people. BioWare can only make the stylized worlds it does now because it "dumbed down" from the overly complex narrative and combat of years past, but still delivered an amazing story with solid gameplay. BioWare purists might decry that BioWare no longer demands that the Fighters and Paladins have to stand exactly so far apart so that the Ancient Vampires don't run through and rip the Wizards apart, but I think that styles like that are best left in BG 2. It's a different era of gaming, just as the population of "gamers" is now different than it was in the days of the Child of Bhaal.
They had it to a minor degree in the first Mass Effect, although the amount of dialogue was very limited and got stale very quickly. I was sad when they took it out completely in ME2 and you could only hear your squad talk on hubs almost solely through triggered "prompts" such as the view of Omega outside Afterlife.Straying Bullet said:
Just for the record - I don't hate Bioware, I'm just not convinced they're as good as a lot of people seem to think. Yes, their games are good and they have moments of true brilliance. But mostly, they're all pretty much the same. Does Bioware create great games? Probably so. Too bad they don't try to innovate, being the pretty capable storysmiths they are, instead doing all they can to cash in on the same thing as many times as they can.
And I'm one of the people who actually hated Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. Gave both a chance, never appealed to me in the slightest. From that era, I think Planescape: Torment was the clearly superior game - interesting, living world, great side-quests, great plot and character development, real dramaticism, great plot twists. I never could treat either BG or NW as more than a glorified Hack & Slash. Then again, they were based off something only remotely different than a Hack & Slash, so there.
Bioware's moment of brilliance was definitely KOTOR. I'm going to play Jade Empire soon because I find the setting interesting. Mass Effect was, in my eyes, severely over-hyped. Dragon Age just seems like a really poor attempt at making a "mature" fantasy game (like the Witcher did and succeeded despite tripping over its feet a few times), where "mature" apparently means hilarious blood splatters and a cuddling scene. Yay?
And I'm one of the people who actually hated Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. Gave both a chance, never appealed to me in the slightest. From that era, I think Planescape: Torment was the clearly superior game - interesting, living world, great side-quests, great plot and character development, real dramaticism, great plot twists. I never could treat either BG or NW as more than a glorified Hack & Slash. Then again, they were based off something only remotely different than a Hack & Slash, so there.
Bioware's moment of brilliance was definitely KOTOR. I'm going to play Jade Empire soon because I find the setting interesting. Mass Effect was, in my eyes, severely over-hyped. Dragon Age just seems like a really poor attempt at making a "mature" fantasy game (like the Witcher did and succeeded despite tripping over its feet a few times), where "mature" apparently means hilarious blood splatters and a cuddling scene. Yay?
...he lost his wife, his wife, not feeling guilty would be messed up.Trolldor said:
Also, hes no monkey, monkey just think about bananas.
Sorry, my inner Tolkien Geek just rages.immovablemover said:
Tolkien Elves didn't have pointy ears. Find me a single passage from any of Tolkien's works which states that they look anything else than human in their physique (apart from being "beautiful and graceful"). You're thinking about the PJ movies.
Sorry for the offtopic.
Hmm, I never played Baldur's Gate, so I can only go off of KOTOR, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age when I judge Bioware, and while I myself am worried about the outcome of ME3, I don't think Bioware is as bad as everyone is saying. They have some really beautiful writing and well crafted characters IMO.
Granted I only have their recent work compared to every other company to go off of, so maybe I just wasn't spoiled by their ethereal previous work.
Granted I only have their recent work compared to every other company to go off of, so maybe I just wasn't spoiled by their ethereal previous work.
No problem, had to let that out, thanks for taking it like a civilised human being, was a bit afraid you'd get irritated and this would start a pointless heated argument... Gods know there's not a shortage of those on Internet Forums.immovablemover said: