How do you reason with religious people?

[k-ossuburb]

People here seem to be going a little off topic from the actual question.

To deal with that particular person you'll have to just send him a few links and maybe explain a few things, if he still doesn't get it tell him he's being unreasonable and that you have better things to do with your time than make him listen or agree to anything without his intention.

Until he can act reasonably, just don't bother and end the conversation, you're not likely to reason with anyone who won't allow it.

 

[Rotting Corpse]

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?

The most important thing is to remember to never get angry back. Always try to keep a level head. You have to make sure to control the conversation. Whenever he starts to detour about anything, even if it's a different point on the same subject, bring him back on track. A lot of religious people in arguments will move on to different points as soon as you present them with a response to something they said or when you ask them a question. Control the conversation.

Also, when you first start the conversation, make them define what they believe. If you don't make them define what they believe, they'll keep moving the flag on you, if you know what I mean. You'll present some fallacy with something they said and they'll respond, "Oh that's what god is really like." But if you make them define their beliefs, they can't do that on you.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

I highly recommend that wiki if you're looking for how to respond to most of the arguments that believers will throw at you. Good luck, let us know how it goes if it comes up again.

 

[Retosa]

I don't, because religion, no matter how small a role it plays or how innocent it is, is simply not based on reason. In the end it all boils down to "because it feels nice", and you can't reason with such emotions.

Not an insult of course, because that's the whole point of religion; to soothe one's mind, a man-made safety blanket against the vast chaos that is life and the universe.

Snip

There is no vast chaos to Life, the Universe, and Everything anymore. 6x7=42

C'mon people, grab your towel and let's hitch a ride to the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.

OT:

Disclaimer: I know these types of posts are frowned upon, but this is made not to troll, and I don't want a flame war. This is an honest question asking for help, and I ask to PLEASE keep it clean.:

It started when I told my religious friend about the whole WBC vs Anon thing.. to my shock he seemed to take the side of WBC, simply because they share the same type of religion (though I don't think he understands what they do different...) suddenly I'm in a 2 hour debate as if I attacked him.. No matter what I said he would yell and start attacking me personally, even on things that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. He just went nuts.

Finally I asked him a simple question.. "Do you think the WBC are part of the same religion as you, yes or no?" I never got an answer, in 20 posts of IM, I got cursing, insulting, straying off topic, but not a single yes or no.

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?

Best way to talk to your friend is tell him point blank that he's avoiding the situation and question and responding with ignorance with hate toward you. Tell him if he continues to INSULT you, then he's being a very poor friend. Tell him you're not attacking him, and that you just want him to understand what's going on. Explain what's going on, show him google caches of godhatesfags.com and other WBC websites. Show him the interview with Anon and WBC. The creepy lady's smile should make him very uncomfortable. (I know it made me uncomfortable!) And just make your case slowly. If you can talk to him like that without him attacking you, you'll be able to get through to him. Tell him to STOP if he starts attacking you again, and then say "If you're going to attack me and act hateful while I'm trying to explain my point of view to you, then I'm going to say we end this completely, and never speak of it again." if you want to keep your friendship. If he's pissed you off too much, say "Sorry, if you're going to continue being hateful while I'm just trying to explain why these people are atrociously hateful, then you're too much like them to be a friend of mine." and walk away.

Good luck, I hope you can keep your friend.

 

[PoliceBox63]

I usually don't. I remember what it felt like to be very religious and there is no way in hell that they[footnote]Those who are more devout than the everyday Christian.[/footnote] will ever listen to science over faith. They really won't. When I was religious the thought never even crossed my mind that it could all be BS, and my idea of an "Atheist" when I was religious was someone who's an idiot and has no goal in life and is just being a rebel.

Relativity is everything

 

[HerbertTheHamster]

I tell them that my God is better than their "god"

 

[dkyros]

Depends.

Are we talking hyper relgious zealot who ignores logic and reason, or relgious person who still has common sense?

If it's the former, just don't even bother.

ditto, my answer is dont. You can't argue with ingrained religion because it is correct and anything to the contrary is evil.

Next time you get into an argument about religion you can smile and change the subject.

 

[Hatiras]

If they grew up with religious nut jobs as parents, the only way your going to get through to him is with a decent sized crow bar

 

[FightThePower]

I don't. They won't change my view, I won't change theirs. Neither of us have anything to gain by arguing about religion.

 

[Polyintrinsic]

See, the main flaw with talking to really religious people is that they don't believe in fact. Their whole belief system is based on something that they have been told to believe in, and not something that has evidence supporting it. When a logical person tries to bring facts into an argument against a religious person they don't understand its usefulness or purpose because its not relevant.

Usually they tend to get angry because in the argument you are trying to get them to see another side of a story, to get them to look beyond what they know, to push their boundaries of thought. For religious people this is very scary, therefore they react with anger. Religious people have been told what to believe their whole life, you can't just force them to think independantly because its like sheep without their shepard, they get lost and scared.Free or inspirational thought is something the church likes to suppress as much as possible, so trying to get an indocrinated person to think for themselves, to look for facts, or to challenge their beliefs is near impossible.

Disclaimer: This is just my experience in dealing with religious poeple. If you take offence to this post and are not a religious person, then I am sorry just ignore my post. If you take offense and are a religious person, I won't bother debating with you for reasons stated above.

 

[Smooth Operator]

You go and pray they will some day understand, what else

 

[rokkolpo]

You cannot reason with idiots oblivious for the truth.
You NEED to be open-minded to be able to be in a discussion of any kind.
Otherwise it'll just be a fight.

Important! I'm not insinuating that all religious people are idiots.
Your friend just happens to be one when confronted with religion.

 

[Thaius]

Your friend is not saying what he's saying because he's religious, he's saying it because, frankly, he's being painfully stupid. I'm a Christian, and no one I know supports WBC. Everyone I know, myself included, despises those idiots for their severe misinterpretations of the Bible that makes all the rest of us Christians look bad. "Misinterpretations" is actually not a strong enough word: I don't even know where they pull some of their crap from. Siding with someone just because they claim to believe as you do, even though their actions prove otherwise, is stupid. Regardless of what those beliefs are. Atheists do it too, simply because people are really stupid sometimes.

Religion does not equal anti-intellectualism.

 

[McNinja]

Disclaimer: I know these types of posts are frowned upon, but this is made not to troll, and I don't want a flame war. This is an honest question asking for help, and I ask to PLEASE keep it clean.:

It started when I told my religious friend about the whole WBC vs Anon thing.. to my shock he seemed to take the side of WBC, simply because they share the same type of religion (though I don't think he understands what they do different...) suddenly I'm in a 2 hour debate as if I attacked him.. No matter what I said he would yell and start attacking me personally, even on things that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. He just went nuts.

Finally I asked him a simple question.. "Do you think the WBC are part of the same religion as you, yes or no?" I never got an answer, in 20 posts of IM, I got cursing, insulting, straying off topic, but not a single yes or no.

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?

Your friend clearly either has the same views as the WBC, or has no idea what they've done.

Most normal, non-fanatical religious people are normal. Religion has almost nothing to do with it, unless talking about moral issues. Like the WBC. Do we blast them into the sun, or a volcano?

 

[Thaius]

See, the main flaw with talking to really religious people is that they don't believe in fact. Their whole belief system is based on something that they have been told to believe in, and not something that has evidence supporting it. When a logical person tries to bring facts into an argument against a religious person they don't understand its usefulness or purpose because its not relevant.

Usually they tend to get angry because in the argument you are trying to get them to see another side of a story, to get them to look beyond what they know, to push their boundaries of thought. For religious people this is very scary, therefore they react with anger. Religious people have been told what to believe their whole life, you can't just force them to think independantly because its like sheep without their shepard, they get lost and scared.Free or inspirational thought is something the church likes to suppress as much as possible, so trying to get an indocrinated person to think for themselves, to look for facts, or to challenge their beliefs is near impossible.

Disclaimer: This is just my experience in dealing with religious poeple. If you take offence to this post and are not a religious person, then I am sorry just ignore my post. If you take offense and are a religious person, I won't bother debating with you for reasons stated above.

I find that last paragraph interesting. You basically just equated religion with anti-intellectualism, and you don't want anyone to challenge you on it. Your perception of all religious people is conveniently such that you claim it wouldn't be worth discussing it with them. Good job remaining comfortable in your lack of understanding! *sarcastic thumbs up*

Look, you don't need to debate with someone about it, you just need to understand that you're generalizing here, and the resulting ideas are wrong. Some religious people have issues with that, true. But the amount is becoming less and less. Reason being, we live in a culture that is increasingly hostile toward religion; it's "tolerated" in the actual meaning of the word, but generally made fun of in our culture based on sweeping generalizations like the ones you made here. Anyone growing up with, or accepting later in life, a given religion goes through a period in his/her life where they have to step back and take a serious look at what they believe and decide whether they actually believe it for themselves. Faith does play a role in a religion, but rarely does it take an all-important one. You don't have to agree with any given religion if you don't want to, but to essentially say that anyone who believes in a given religion is against logical thought is more than a little much, and more than a little ignorant.

 

[joshthor]

Disclaimer: I know these types of posts are frowned upon, but this is made not to troll, and I don't want a flame war. This is an honest question asking for help, and I ask to PLEASE keep it clean.:

It started when I told my religious friend about the whole WBC vs Anon thing.. to my shock he seemed to take the side of WBC, simply because they share the same type of religion (though I don't think he understands what they do different...) suddenly I'm in a 2 hour debate as if I attacked him.. No matter what I said he would yell and start attacking me personally, even on things that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. He just went nuts.

Finally I asked him a simple question.. "Do you think the WBC are part of the same religion as you, yes or no?" I never got an answer, in 20 posts of IM, I got cursing, insulting, straying off topic, but not a single yes or no.

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?

god your a dick. the title of the post is so frickin ignorant as it is and basically just an attack against religious people (like we arent smart enough to reason with as it is). just because your moron freind isnt educated enough to listen to both sides of the facts doesnt mean all, or even most religious people are as bad as him. i told my dad, an elder at a evangelical christian church, and my mom, also a very religious evangelical christian about this story. they thought it was funny that it happened, they think the WBC should be abolished (they did already) and we got into a discussion about free speech and the implications of it.

 

[Cavouku]

Can't support anyone who supports the WBC. There are people who are in religions for a plethora of reasons; security, conformity, nurture, or just a personal spiritual epiphany. Your friend sounds like he's taking the WBC's side to conform, and find brotherhood amongst those who he thinks share his views and opinions.

This is the type of religious person who sounds devout, but aren't, and on a lower level they just want to fit in, and they've drawn religion out of the deck of cards.

Personally, if someone is "just religious" you should argue with them how you would argue with anyone else. Otherwise you're patronizing or discriminating them based on their beliefs.

It's plain to see most people are firmly against Christian religion's prosthetizing, and I understand, I think that this is invasive and bothersome. I think there's a lot of things this group could do to improve themselves, but keep in mind many religious people are every day people.

I'm a pantheist. I don't use God as an excuse for creation, or divine right, or even for my security. At my root, I just believe there's an essence out there, some sort of embodiment of universal existence in a form, outside of the physical. This means that my views may be more lenient and open to scientific fact and the matter, and there are those religious people that are so rooted in their beliefs they would deny that which is for that which they think is.

But the fact that it exists to them means it exists, in that form.

But, your friend needs to come to understand himself before he can truly understand what he believes.


EDIT: I think it's worth stating that your friend would probably be as thickly routed in his views if they were atheistic views. Religion doesn't so much cause extremism or over zealousness, but because of the variety of interpretations of things like scriptures, it may be more welcome for such people than the straight-forward scientific.

If the person fighting Anonymous was an overtly-ignorant atheist group, not the WBC, and were telling Anon that they were scientifically doomed, and less evolved, etc., and your friend was an extremist atheist, he would still be as he was. His persona comes more from his character than his views.

 

[Xealeon]

This question just seems like you're making assumptions about a whole group based on a single incident. I know plenty of religious people who are all perfectly reasonable. The question may as well be "How do you reason with (insert ethnicity/race/creed) people?" because it would still have the same answer.

 

[xchurchx]

hey im religious and I Hate the WBC
I think if they just stayed to themselves Christianity would be a lot more respected

 

[DanielDeFig]

SNIP

Imagine a man in the street who yelled he could see an invisible magic pink unicorn, and it told him how to live his life. He implores you to also see the unicorn, some people in teh street go and join him staring at this magical pink unicorn that is invisible. I have about as much respect for religious people as i do this crazy old man. There is no observable difference between the two. I dont really see why i should have to respect religion but not teh crazy old unicorn man? They are both equally moronic. I kinda just put up with religious people. About half our population can see invisible pink unicorns. Good for them.

I Fully agree. But i have to ask religious people of the world:
How come you join non-religious people in taking a unicorn-worshipping man into psychiatric care, but disagree when we suggest you could benefit from similar treatment?

I highly doubt more than half the human population is psychologically disturbed, instead it seems they simply don't see any reason to question what they have been taught since birth (especially when they are discouraged to question their own religion). But if such teachings are based on abandoning reason and logic when it feels good, then maybe they should be encouraged to question themselves and their own religion from outside sources.