How do you reason with religious people?

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I just say you should let them believe what they believe. To try to argue with them or reason with them will just lead to problems.
 

Corkydog

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YukoValis said:
So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?
Well, to start with, as with any argument with a friend, give them the benifit of the doubt. Does he know what the WBC stands for, or what it is? Because he may be getting decieved by the label of "Baptist Church", when in fact it is essentially a cult that exploits people's devotion to Jesus in order to commit hate crimes.

If he does understand that, he isn't arguing with you because he is religious, he is arguing with you because he believes in the WBC's message, at which point he is no longer worth speaking to.

That said, he is defensive about his faith because church bashing is in vogue amongst some atheistic or agnostic circles, and it becomes tiresome to be discriminated against because of your faith. I am NOT (repeat: NOT) saying all athiests or agnostics are like this.

Now then, the more open ended part of your question.

When arguing with a religious person, a few things to keep in mind. Disagreeing with their faith is fine, but don't insult their faith or them for believing it. Just because they don't believe the same as you doesn't mean they are wrong or inferior.

Don't always ask for scientific reasoning behind their every opinion. Opinions are just that, they don't need reasoning. Religion gets a bad rap because it is faith based and is therefore illogical, but screw that. Religion fulfills a distinct human need: Need for purpose. Science gives us meaningless lives, so it's no wonder people sought a bigger answer.

The most important thing is to try and understand why they are saying what they are saying. Faith is a complex thing. The Catholic church is far more vast than just the Pope (I use this as an example because I was raised semiCatholic. It's my area of familiarity). Don't write off people because of religious affiliation.
 

Nimcha

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Nieroshai said:
Nimcha said:
Nieroshai said:
Nimcha said:
Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.
One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.
Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.
But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.
You find your religion reasonable because of your belief I suppose. That's fine. But also irrelevant since you can't reason about that belief to someone who doesn't share it.
 

Blind Sight

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Well, personally I think 'reason' is somewhat of an incorrect term, because religion is largely founded on irrationality and belief, not reason. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, your business is your business.

Anyway, I'm an atheist and my family is extremely Catholic. Unlike them, however, I have actually read parts of the Bible and I use those for the sake of discussion. It amazes me that some Christians just accept whatever a priest tells them and never actually read the book that their faith is founded on. Anyway, here's a discussion that I had between me and my dad awhile back:

Dad: The problem is Blind Sight, that if you don't believe in a higher power you don't believe in anything at all. (yes he actually said that)
Me: Completely invalid argument. It's 'I think, therefore I am' not 'I believe, therefore I am' removing your reason and logic just so you can believe in some abstract concepts is not the correct way to follow something. You have to analyze it, study alternatives, and determine truth from that. Even your own opinions conflict with Biblical teachings.
Dad: What do you mean?
Me: I know you give a lot of money to anti-abortion charities, right? So you believe that in any situation, killing 'babies' is wrong, correct?
Dad: Yes of course.
Me: Then how do you defend God for drowning babies in the great Flood? Or killing all the first born babies in Egypt when Pharaoh refused to let the Jews go? Or burning them alive when God destroyed Sodom and Gommorrah? These are all events where God willingly kills innocent children within the Bible, does he get to avoid this rule just because he's God? At best, that makes God a bully, and at worse a tyrant.
Dad: The Bible doesn't say that.
Me: Look it up, it does. It also has God tell Moses to commit genocide against the Canaanites. He orders the Jews to kill every man, married woman, child and even animals. The only Canaanites he deems worthy to live are virgin girls, and he only does this because he orders the Jews to take them as wives. Basically, making them war trophies and rape victims. Now tell me, do those actions seem like one of a higher being, or do they instead sound like the fantasies of some ordinary guy from early in human history writing a story?

My dad then told me those parts weren't in the Bible and I was 'mocking his faith'. I told him to actually read the bloody thing before he tries to tell what is and isn't in it. So far, he hasn't cracked it open yet.
 

Nieroshai

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Nimcha said:
Nieroshai said:
Nimcha said:
Nieroshai said:
Nimcha said:
Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.
One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.
Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.
But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.
You find your religion reasonable because of your belief I suppose. That's fine. But also irrelevant since you can't reason about that belief to someone who doesn't share it.
My reasoning with atheists is about the possibility of the supernatural existing, and the fact that scientists haven't yet invented something that can detect psionic presence doesn't mean it does not exist, in fact quantum theory shows how it's possible. To other religions, I look for loopholes in their religions and ask them to do the same to me. One must believe in the supernatural in order to believe in God, so I don't argue God with atheists, only the possibility of the immaaterial.
But I digress. I don't want to hijack this thread, so suffice to say I don't worship on blind faith alone.
 

Chibz

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Magenera said:
1. That was hilarious.
2. You are still at the end of the spectrum.
Atheism and Religion are belief system nothing more nothing less. Both when you find people are moderates get into an argument it goes down to whether ones believes or not. Neither is inferior nor superior just an subjective system that we have.
Hey now, my beliefs aren't really that fundamentally different. The only notable one is that I disbelieve in one more religion than they do.

I'm outside of all religious delusion-bubbles Mostly because I freed myself from the christian one.

On further reflection, I'm less atheist and just STRONGLY stand by the scientific method.
 

icaritos

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Nimcha said:
Nieroshai said:
Nimcha said:
Nieroshai said:
Nimcha said:
Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.
One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.
Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.
But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.
You find your religion reasonable because of your belief I suppose. That's fine. But also irrelevant since you can't reason about that belief to someone who doesn't share it.
Please do share your reasoning with me. And no, I'm not trying to make fun of you, i just honestly haven't found a single religious person (myself included while i was still a christian) who doesn't have their belief established primarily through faith.
 

RAWKSTAR

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Kamehameha.
Problem solved with minimal effort.
Maybe a warp one if I'm feeling raunchy.
 

icaritos

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Nieroshai said:
Nimcha said:
Nieroshai said:
Nimcha said:
Nieroshai said:
Nimcha said:
Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.
One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.
Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.
But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.
You find your religion reasonable because of your belief I suppose. That's fine. But also irrelevant since you can't reason about that belief to someone who doesn't share it.
My reasoning with atheists is about the possibility of the supernatural existing, and the fact that scientists haven't yet invented something that can detect psionic presence doesn't mean it does not exist, in fact quantum theory shows how it's possible. To other religions, I look for loopholes in their religions and ask them to do the same to me. One must believe in the supernatural in order to believe in God, so I don't argue God with atheists, only the possibility of the immaaterial.
But I digress. I don't want to hijack this thread, so suffice to say I don't worship on blind faith alone.
So your belief stems mostly from the "god within the cracks" ideology. I'm not criticism you but that is still mostly (if not 100%) faith, rather than fact.
 

Nimcha

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Nieroshai said:
Nimcha said:
Nieroshai said:
Nimcha said:
Nieroshai said:
Nimcha said:
Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.
One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.
Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.
But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.
You find your religion reasonable because of your belief I suppose. That's fine. But also irrelevant since you can't reason about that belief to someone who doesn't share it.
My reasoning with atheists is about the possibility of the supernatural existing, and the fact that scientists haven't yet invented something that can detect psionic presence doesn't mean it does not exist, in fact quantum theory shows how it's possible.
I see. This sort of thing might work on people who have no idea what quantum theory is but for people who actually understand some of the basics of the science it's quite insulting. Quantum theory says absolutely nothing about the supernatural I'm afraid. You can claim it does because it's so hard to understand and because nobody knows all of it yet.

As far as your argument goes, ever heard of Occam's Razor?

See this is the problem, we can't talk about this reasonably since this has nothing to do with reason.
 

justnotcricket

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Generally, I try to apply the principle of live and let live - as others have mentioned above me in this thread, it's better to leave off the religious debates (and they're easier to start than you think) unless you actually *want* the debate/argument/whatever that follows.
 

Whispering Cynic

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If there is a lesson in life I learned well, it is that there is no reasoning with religious people. They cannot be swayed by logic and reason, they will stand their ground regardless of the argument you present. There is no point in even trying, the eventual change must come from within. Sure, I respect their beliefs but they don't interest me and I will not discuss them because that only causes unnecessary problems.

But I do like to explore ways to troll certain specimens into leaving my door as fast as possible (if simple "no, thank you, goodbye" doesn't work)...
 

ErythorbicAcid

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You don't.

Religious and non-religious people hold fundamentally differing views of reality. So it's not a matter of changing their mind on a particular subject, or with enough information they will then see. It takes a very fundamental shift in the way they think about and interact with the universe at large.

This is why religion scares the hell outta me. How in the world are we supposed to think about the big picture as a society when the big picture is so very different from person to person?

What do you do when half of your population is waiting for the world to end and would not only welcome it, but actually work to make it happen while believing they were doing good.
 

SinisterGehe

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You don't. You can not do a concluding discussion about some with person who's 1+1=3 not 2. The bases of your view point are way too different and they way you construct your thesis differs way too much.

It is like discussing is Tea good with someone who has always drank tea and never even tasted tea. Neither you really have Idea what you are talking about.
You don't know "God"
He can't understand how someone can not know "God". HE can't put himself to the position of not knowing god because he "knows" it and works around with that fact.

I personally see it quite selfish that someone believes in "God".
Once one religious person said that my atheism is only gods way of testing hes faith and he must convert me to succeed. That way of thinking puts everything in to position of "This is only "God's" test on me" projecting you as the center of the world.
 

PayneTrayne

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If you're both dead set in your beliefs than simply don't. There's no point in arguing when neither one of you are willing to change your viewpoints.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
the easiest way to reason with them is to know the book they like better then them which usually isnt hard, very few religious people really know what the bible or whatever says, they mostly get it from stories from priests or tv etc etc, hell catholics arnt supposed to read the bible at all, they are only supposed to get stuff about it from their priest, very few of them really know what sort of weird stuff is in it
 

Andrew_Mac

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YukoValis said:
So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?"
You don't. It's impossible

EDIT: not meaning any disrespect, its just a fact.
 

Atmos Duality

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Oh, here's a convoluted mess from my brain.

I tried living in the same vein as an Atheist for a few years, and all it did was show me how fucking horrible life can be. "Freedom" turned into some messy, convoluted interpretation of perspective (absolute freedom cannot live with one ounce of ethics on its back). Their "Happiness" was just as hollow and meaningless as the happiness they protested against ("You aren't happy, you've only been programmed to think that way by your faith" as an argument is paradoxical and self defeating when used as an argument in favor of the abolition of religion, and yet, this is an argument I see all the time. The logical explanation is that the one making the argument will gain a sense of joy and self-worth from watching the fall of others. This is the core of my initial problem and why I can only respect those who do not actively seek to destroy others to justify their existence).

The only thing I learned from this exercise was that in the eyes of the inevitability of death, it's pointless to create struggles that actively try to take the joy from our lives. If we exist just to live, then there is no point and thus, we must create our own (or a perfectly logical mind would gladly accept death at the first opportunity).

So perhaps an if an irrational belief helps one function in society, then it is not all the evil it's made out to be. Of course, due to the impossibility of removing bias (because we can only definitively live and think from our own perspective) from the equation, struggles of this nature will arise anyway.

"I'd rather die happy than live in misery, because death is the only inevitability we share in common."
Sort of a perverted version of Milton, but it works for me.