I just say you should let them believe what they believe. To try to argue with them or reason with them will just lead to problems.
Well, to start with, as with any argument with a friend, give them the benifit of the doubt. Does he know what the WBC stands for, or what it is? Because he may be getting decieved by the label of "Baptist Church", when in fact it is essentially a cult that exploits people's devotion to Jesus in order to commit hate crimes.YukoValis said:So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?
You find your religion reasonable because of your belief I suppose. That's fine. But also irrelevant since you can't reason about that belief to someone who doesn't share it.Nieroshai said:But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.Nimcha said:Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.Nieroshai said:One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.Nimcha said:Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.
My reasoning with atheists is about the possibility of the supernatural existing, and the fact that scientists haven't yet invented something that can detect psionic presence doesn't mean it does not exist, in fact quantum theory shows how it's possible. To other religions, I look for loopholes in their religions and ask them to do the same to me. One must believe in the supernatural in order to believe in God, so I don't argue God with atheists, only the possibility of the immaaterial.Nimcha said:You find your religion reasonable because of your belief I suppose. That's fine. But also irrelevant since you can't reason about that belief to someone who doesn't share it.Nieroshai said:But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.Nimcha said:Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.Nieroshai said:One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.Nimcha said:Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.
Hey now, my beliefs aren't really that fundamentally different. The only notable one is that I disbelieve in one more religion than they do.Magenera said:1. That was hilarious.
2. You are still at the end of the spectrum.
Atheism and Religion are belief system nothing more nothing less. Both when you find people are moderates get into an argument it goes down to whether ones believes or not. Neither is inferior nor superior just an subjective system that we have.
Please do share your reasoning with me. And no, I'm not trying to make fun of you, i just honestly haven't found a single religious person (myself included while i was still a christian) who doesn't have their belief established primarily through faith.Nimcha said:You find your religion reasonable because of your belief I suppose. That's fine. But also irrelevant since you can't reason about that belief to someone who doesn't share it.Nieroshai said:But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.Nimcha said:Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.Nieroshai said:One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.Nimcha said:Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.
So your belief stems mostly from the "god within the cracks" ideology. I'm not criticism you but that is still mostly (if not 100%) faith, rather than fact.Nieroshai said:My reasoning with atheists is about the possibility of the supernatural existing, and the fact that scientists haven't yet invented something that can detect psionic presence doesn't mean it does not exist, in fact quantum theory shows how it's possible. To other religions, I look for loopholes in their religions and ask them to do the same to me. One must believe in the supernatural in order to believe in God, so I don't argue God with atheists, only the possibility of the immaaterial.Nimcha said:You find your religion reasonable because of your belief I suppose. That's fine. But also irrelevant since you can't reason about that belief to someone who doesn't share it.Nieroshai said:But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.Nimcha said:Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.Nieroshai said:One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.Nimcha said:Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.
But I digress. I don't want to hijack this thread, so suffice to say I don't worship on blind faith alone.
I see. This sort of thing might work on people who have no idea what quantum theory is but for people who actually understand some of the basics of the science it's quite insulting. Quantum theory says absolutely nothing about the supernatural I'm afraid. You can claim it does because it's so hard to understand and because nobody knows all of it yet.Nieroshai said:My reasoning with atheists is about the possibility of the supernatural existing, and the fact that scientists haven't yet invented something that can detect psionic presence doesn't mean it does not exist, in fact quantum theory shows how it's possible.Nimcha said:You find your religion reasonable because of your belief I suppose. That's fine. But also irrelevant since you can't reason about that belief to someone who doesn't share it.Nieroshai said:But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.Nimcha said:Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.Nieroshai said:One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.Nimcha said:Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.
You don't. It's impossibleYukoValis said:So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?"