How to win the girl. (Some help for all the "best friends" out there.)
- Thread starter maximilian
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First up, I'm replying because I see many huge aspersions cast about me that wouldn't have had you read the majority of the OP, or the thread at all. That's not an insult, that's the truth.JanatUrlich said:
I totally agree with you. This isn't a "tell her you're rich and bend her mind" piece of advice, this is advice for guys too nervous to even tell a girl what their favourite film is. I've made that clear all the way through. I'm not composing a guys personality, I'm giving him the tools to let him show her his personality.
Okay, what the hell? I've never said anything about getting laid. I've stressed relationship in every post, and not once do I mention sex at all. In fact, the furthest I get is that a guy is able to have a CONVERSATION with a girl and talk about what he LIKES. This is where I begin to get angry. Don't just rant into a post without READING it. You are of an entirely different world in what you're addressing or talking about.
Read the OP for the definition/example and the thread for clarity on this point. Similarly, I've said about ten times it isn't about changing yourself, it's about not changing yourself. Sigh.
Your entitled to your opinion, however illformed (based on what I've actually WRITTEN) it is. I do respect women. I love A woman. Not once have a talked about getting laid, cheap thrills or manipulating a girl. If anything, I've offended the "nice guys" - if anybody.
Thank you for not taking any time to read my post without the agenda you had - to smash me to pieces using words out of context and formulating your own meaning from what I've clearly (and repetitiously) expressed.
Seriously, just be yourself.
If that doesn't work after 15 years of trying to find a girlfriend, listen to some stranger's advice. Like this guy.
If that doesn't work after 15 years of trying to find a girlfriend, listen to some stranger's advice. Like this guy.
So what you are saying is don't try to find love or have a relationship unless you are successful and middle to upper middle class. *Clears throat* NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOQuaidis said:
In terms of real life advice I rank that up there with 'Duck and Cover' and 'Smoking improves the sound of a mans voice'
Hey, I have a question...
I personally don't think I'm shit with girls (I actually probably am though), and I conciously do a lot of the stuff you mention in your post but all the girls I know are really very much over the friendship line and trying it on with them is probably just going to weird them out. I need to find some new girls to hit on. So my question is, how do you meet them?
Also I'd side with you, OP, on the "you're not acting yourself" argument that seems to be going on because "myself" is almost certainly going to die alone.
I personally don't think I'm shit with girls (I actually probably am though), and I conciously do a lot of the stuff you mention in your post but all the girls I know are really very much over the friendship line and trying it on with them is probably just going to weird them out. I need to find some new girls to hit on. So my question is, how do you meet them?
Also I'd side with you, OP, on the "you're not acting yourself" argument that seems to be going on because "myself" is almost certainly going to die alone.
As I suspected, you came to same the same points and conclusion I did. I'm gonna say thanks for clearing it up for me.maximilian said:
Regarding the attention, I'm gonna challenge you to the "the other guy" factor. An interesting guy (in her opinion) is walking by and interacting friendly. Hell! let us even say: she knows him! She and you are on a "not date". (Given you can't read the girls mind, obviously) She challenges you through attention, by turning to the "the other guy". What could you do?
I'm merely pointing out the situational exceptions here, but consider it my personal experiment to get on par with your psychological understanding of the female gender.
Edit: If you can't tell I've got little else to do, at the moment.
Thanks. I just wanted to point out the good stuff... I always hate hearing from my guy friends how they've had to 'change' for a gf, and then they suffer through doing stuff they DON'T like .. just to not be alone. So sad.Naheal said:Well, congrats. You took a two page thesis and condensed it into two paragraphs.Tehlanna TPX said:Girl's comment: Just be yourself. Don't change for a girl. If you're an arrogant asshole, and find that you can't get a gf, then you change for YOU... unless you enjoy being an arrogant asshole.. with an extremely strong right/left hand.
OP's advice was great, honestly, at the core. Because it says to just be you. Some women like fakes and posers, and hell you might luck out and find a chick who digs a slave boy. But by and large we just want a good friend who we can also screw and cuddle... and beat the shit out of in video games.
He said unemployed. Not minimum wage or below. Melodramatic much? He was right; girls want a guy who can be independent in and of themselves. None of this living at home with mom while you mooch off of her retirement or the like. Get off your lazy ass and get a job. Scrub. Any girl who dates a guy who is too lazy to motivate himself towards employment is a girl dating beneath herself. Same for guys; don't date a girl who can't take care of herself. That's pathetic.Simriel said:
I warned you in the spoiler tag, and you clicked, so spare me the "wow that's a really long response" crap. If you don't like it, heed the warning next time. Now, to business:
Well, if you're trying to reach the target demographic of "nice guys", you've hit the motherload, OP. However, I'd wager that none of the nice guys here are going to choose to change until one of the following occurs:
A) Finally get into their first relationship (and if that occurs as the result of their current behavior, then we can trust the next option to take care of it as they're completely trodden upon).
B) Get their heart broken.
At least, that's how it happened for me. And it really didn't set in fully until B occurred twice. Relationships are surprisingly adversarial, and you need to treat your potential lover as a respected opponent (considering how much is at stake, it'd be reckless not to). As someone who was raised to be fully empathic and caring, I had a hard time understanding that fact until I got repeatedly taken advantage of. Sadly, it's something you'll have to learn for yourself; if you're not familiar with the way it goes, you'll fall into such pitfalls as the "thanks for the warning, guys, but this one's special" mindset.
Now, to address all the nice guys decrying OP's advice as being shallow: don't pretend you're any better. I know you. You heap your attention and care upon your most attractive friends of the opposite sex, while avoiding your more homely acquaintances like the plague. You clamor to kiss my attractive girlfriend's ass, and talk shit about me every time she and I have an argument, in hopes that she'll realize that the two of you were "meant to be" and that she should give up on the exciting jerks like me that know what we want and have personalities of our own. The sooner you're honest with yourself about the fact that you're attempting to land an attractive, special girlfriend through emotional blackmail, the sooner you'll be able to drop the facade and have the confidence to stop being a coward and put your true self out there.
Before you dismiss me as being callous and out-of-touch with your special situation, let me put this in another way: how do you treat the more sycophantic among your friends? Do you treat them with the same respect that they give you unconditionally, or do you have a tendency to find them boring and forgettable? This is the inverse of the relationship you have with whoever you're trying to win over: you're a forgettable, irritating void of personality that gets walked all over. If you manage to land a relationship by being overly agreeable, you're still going to be treated like a doormat. You'll be lied to, manipulated selfishly, and given only enough attention and artificial love to keep you on their leash, before they eventually find someone more interesting and leave you for them.
Sorry if you don't like the rules in this particular game, but if you don't follow them, you're going to be disqualified. Sure, people have a tendency to misrepresent what they desire in a partner, but that's usually because they're afraid to be honest about how "shallow" other people would consider their desires to be. Don't buy into it, or you'll be permanently friend-zoned.
Now, I'm going to let you in on a little secret: you're probably pretty fucking awesome if you live up to your full potential. You try hard to compete with others by being everything they're not, but you're forgetting to combine that with everything positive about them, as well. So what if you're not as attractive as the jocks or those blessed with generous genetic coding? You're probably smart, caring, and emotionally intuitive. Those are all qualities that the target of your affection likely would've killed for in their previous partners, but there's no point in filling in the blanks when you can't provide the sentence around them. It's not enough to match somebody on a different level if you want to be competitive, you need to exceed them. I could make a nerdy comparison to wanting a jack-of-all-trades with well-rounded stats if you're going to have just one other party member, but... well, okay, I just did. Point is, you've already got the advantage over other people that you'd consider your prime competition, all you have to do is put more effort into being the total package with bonus incentives, rather than an offbeat alternative. It bears repeating that you shouldn't wait around forever for someone that loves everything about what you're currently doing, because they don't have the mindset to find it attractive any more than you would in someone else, and it would be hypocritical to expect otherwise.
I'm not going to throw any disingenuous and ultimately hollow pithy motivational phrases at you like "tell them how you feel, the worst they can do is tell you not to talk to them any more", because you're above that, and if you're not able to adequately prepare yourself to do any of these things without a pep-talk, your courage won't last. To build your confidence in yourself and your ability to interact with others, start small, and don't allow yourself to be discouraged by negative reactions, as people will be used to your normal mopey/submissive attitude and will interpret your ever-increasing assertiveness and confidence as being moody. Don't allow the status quo to trap you, even if other people don't approve. It'll pay off in the long run, I promise you. It probably won't feel right when you exercise your confidence; more likely, you'll be uncertain and feel awkward, because you're breaking your usual habits. It's an uphill battle, to be sure, but you've got to fight it if you want to plant your flag on the summit (no double-entendre intended). There's no sense in dicking around and searching for an escalator when everybody else is already near the top. A cheap and easy way to build self-confidence without having to blunder through quite as many conversations is to start working out: download some audio books or some energetic music, and go for long walks (for the shy among you, take those walks during the small hours of the night to avoid scrutinizing eyes). After a week or so of this (no slacking off by skipping a day, NO EXCUSES), you'll feel ready to take on the world, I promise. That extra bit of confidence will carry over to your interactions and lighten your load, but again, keep it gradual, and stay committed to self-improvement.
And in case you missed it the first time, and still believe I'm pulling a Dr. Phil by talking out of my ass, I'd like to point out in more than just a passing mention that every single last bit of this is based on personal experience. I've told you enough to at least get you started; whether you choose to wait around for the "perfect moment" of inspiration that is never going to happen, or take charge of your own future and run wild with the opportunities you've been wasting thus far, is entirely up to you. If you've had enough interest in self-improvement to read all the way to this point, you're already off to a great start, now use the momentum you've already got to carry forward with more vigor than you'd have if you decided to set off to an uneasy start from a standstill. God speed.
Well, if you're trying to reach the target demographic of "nice guys", you've hit the motherload, OP. However, I'd wager that none of the nice guys here are going to choose to change until one of the following occurs:
A) Finally get into their first relationship (and if that occurs as the result of their current behavior, then we can trust the next option to take care of it as they're completely trodden upon).
B) Get their heart broken.
At least, that's how it happened for me. And it really didn't set in fully until B occurred twice. Relationships are surprisingly adversarial, and you need to treat your potential lover as a respected opponent (considering how much is at stake, it'd be reckless not to). As someone who was raised to be fully empathic and caring, I had a hard time understanding that fact until I got repeatedly taken advantage of. Sadly, it's something you'll have to learn for yourself; if you're not familiar with the way it goes, you'll fall into such pitfalls as the "thanks for the warning, guys, but this one's special" mindset.
Now, to address all the nice guys decrying OP's advice as being shallow: don't pretend you're any better. I know you. You heap your attention and care upon your most attractive friends of the opposite sex, while avoiding your more homely acquaintances like the plague. You clamor to kiss my attractive girlfriend's ass, and talk shit about me every time she and I have an argument, in hopes that she'll realize that the two of you were "meant to be" and that she should give up on the exciting jerks like me that know what we want and have personalities of our own. The sooner you're honest with yourself about the fact that you're attempting to land an attractive, special girlfriend through emotional blackmail, the sooner you'll be able to drop the facade and have the confidence to stop being a coward and put your true self out there.
Before you dismiss me as being callous and out-of-touch with your special situation, let me put this in another way: how do you treat the more sycophantic among your friends? Do you treat them with the same respect that they give you unconditionally, or do you have a tendency to find them boring and forgettable? This is the inverse of the relationship you have with whoever you're trying to win over: you're a forgettable, irritating void of personality that gets walked all over. If you manage to land a relationship by being overly agreeable, you're still going to be treated like a doormat. You'll be lied to, manipulated selfishly, and given only enough attention and artificial love to keep you on their leash, before they eventually find someone more interesting and leave you for them.
Sorry if you don't like the rules in this particular game, but if you don't follow them, you're going to be disqualified. Sure, people have a tendency to misrepresent what they desire in a partner, but that's usually because they're afraid to be honest about how "shallow" other people would consider their desires to be. Don't buy into it, or you'll be permanently friend-zoned.
Now, I'm going to let you in on a little secret: you're probably pretty fucking awesome if you live up to your full potential. You try hard to compete with others by being everything they're not, but you're forgetting to combine that with everything positive about them, as well. So what if you're not as attractive as the jocks or those blessed with generous genetic coding? You're probably smart, caring, and emotionally intuitive. Those are all qualities that the target of your affection likely would've killed for in their previous partners, but there's no point in filling in the blanks when you can't provide the sentence around them. It's not enough to match somebody on a different level if you want to be competitive, you need to exceed them. I could make a nerdy comparison to wanting a jack-of-all-trades with well-rounded stats if you're going to have just one other party member, but... well, okay, I just did. Point is, you've already got the advantage over other people that you'd consider your prime competition, all you have to do is put more effort into being the total package with bonus incentives, rather than an offbeat alternative. It bears repeating that you shouldn't wait around forever for someone that loves everything about what you're currently doing, because they don't have the mindset to find it attractive any more than you would in someone else, and it would be hypocritical to expect otherwise.
I'm not going to throw any disingenuous and ultimately hollow pithy motivational phrases at you like "tell them how you feel, the worst they can do is tell you not to talk to them any more", because you're above that, and if you're not able to adequately prepare yourself to do any of these things without a pep-talk, your courage won't last. To build your confidence in yourself and your ability to interact with others, start small, and don't allow yourself to be discouraged by negative reactions, as people will be used to your normal mopey/submissive attitude and will interpret your ever-increasing assertiveness and confidence as being moody. Don't allow the status quo to trap you, even if other people don't approve. It'll pay off in the long run, I promise you. It probably won't feel right when you exercise your confidence; more likely, you'll be uncertain and feel awkward, because you're breaking your usual habits. It's an uphill battle, to be sure, but you've got to fight it if you want to plant your flag on the summit (no double-entendre intended). There's no sense in dicking around and searching for an escalator when everybody else is already near the top. A cheap and easy way to build self-confidence without having to blunder through quite as many conversations is to start working out: download some audio books or some energetic music, and go for long walks (for the shy among you, take those walks during the small hours of the night to avoid scrutinizing eyes). After a week or so of this (no slacking off by skipping a day, NO EXCUSES), you'll feel ready to take on the world, I promise. That extra bit of confidence will carry over to your interactions and lighten your load, but again, keep it gradual, and stay committed to self-improvement.
And in case you missed it the first time, and still believe I'm pulling a Dr. Phil by talking out of my ass, I'd like to point out in more than just a passing mention that every single last bit of this is based on personal experience. I've told you enough to at least get you started; whether you choose to wait around for the "perfect moment" of inspiration that is never going to happen, or take charge of your own future and run wild with the opportunities you've been wasting thus far, is entirely up to you. If you've had enough interest in self-improvement to read all the way to this point, you're already off to a great start, now use the momentum you've already got to carry forward with more vigor than you'd have if you decided to set off to an uneasy start from a standstill. God speed.
Well, I need to stress that I really only flirt with girls when I'm fairly sure I could go out with them (or, 100% wanting to go out with them).Daveman said:
I'm not a playa or somebody into one night stands.
As such, I find that I usually meet girls in places that I spend a lot of time - university, work etc.
Of course, depending on how confident you are (talking general confidence as a personality trait), you can pretty much strike up conversation anywhere.
I understand that if you're not in any enforced social circles (uni, work etc.) it can be hard to meet members of the opposite sex. I found joining a gym or sports club is a great way as it teams something physically healthy with that necessary social interaction.
I generally steer away from bars or clubs as I don't find the atmosphere or people suitable to conversation or a girl who I would be attracted to.
Of course, that special girl can often be found in the most unlikely of places!
I think the most important thing to remember is that given my above advice, you shouldn't be dropping pick up lines or anything like that. The best relationships usually come out of good conversation, so I usually like to just get to know a girl I find attractive before I even begin to think about asking her out. Of course, I abide by my advice above so that she still mentally regards me as a potential lover as opposed to a friend.
(Wow, that was awkward to write. You have to realise I'm trying to explain as clearly as possibly the subconcious processes I go through! I'm not actually standing there on the treadmill thinking all this!)
There's one part of really good advice I see here "Treat her as though you have just met her on the train, and she's an 85 year old eager to tell a story."
I don't know why, but that seems like great advice. If you just think of a girl as a person, rather than an object, you show inner maturity.
I don't know why, but that seems like great advice. If you just think of a girl as a person, rather than an object, you show inner maturity.
First of all, I generally lurk around these forums, and read random topics... However, this whole thread has entertained me immensely in multiple ways, and actually made me want to make an account to post! Hello Escapists!
First of all, I laughed extremely hard at the fact that multiple people are offended by the OP... Without even reading it at all. While I agree it was an extremely long post, how can you argue against it without even reading it?
Thank you maximilian for the interesting post, and the entertaining thread that came with it.
Now, on to post my own thoughts. Very good advice, which places great emphasis on the fact that if "The Guy" is going to go after "The Girl", he has to be HIMSELF. Not a fake arrogant prick. But a confident, cocky, fully open and available version of himself.
Why guys seem to have issues acting themselves around women is just odd to me, personally (Well, now it is, after I got over my own fears). However, I do understand to an extent that emotions can, and do, get in the way of acting like yourself. For example; if a girl you're attracted to freaks out because of a spider, and you AREN'T afraid of spiders, yet freak out and kill it in a protective frenzy... You aren't acting like yourself. If you were in a long term relationship with her, you'd tease her. And this is exactly the kind of stuff that the OP points out. You have to actually be confident in yourself, and cocky to an extent. As cockiness is natural to someone who is confident. Cockiness IS NOT arrogance, and I can see arrogance as a turn off.
The OP's advice is centered around the guy, and how the guy views himself. Yes, there's trial and error. And if you run in doing everything exactly like he says, of course you're ignoring "The Guy's" and "The Girl's" personalities. However, advice guidlines can never be perfect when involving any form of relationship advice, so why complain about that fact? It's a guideline that uses the experiences of the person who wrote them to enhance the information given.
The information and advice is good, the exact situations and examples might not work for you, and you may want to tweak some of it as you gain experience yourself. But if you're just following the same procedure over and over again, always getting screwed over or stuck in that eternal "friend zone", then maybe you need the advice. That's not to say that being friends can't bring a relationship about. But if you're interested, and "The Girl" isn't, then you won't get that relationship if you fawn over her (Unless she wants a slave boy, but then you'll likely be cheated on, from my experiences in how those girls think, just saying). AKA don't be the doormat.
In essence, I approve of the OP. The advice was well thought out, and directed toward a target audience of those who have trouble being themselves and expressing themselves around women. One thing I have to add, which was hinted at in the OP, but not openly stated (as far as my memory goes, after reading all the comments before I started writing is that you NEED experience dealing with women. You're attracted to the girl, so try to be yourself. Let her know you love Dungeons and Dragons, and are capable of laughing at how you can kill a dragon with a pea shooter if you roll a 20 with a stupid piece of dice. Be confident of the fact that you play WoW and enjoy it, and laugh at the fact that you stand in the slime and get yelled at by your guildies as you wiped them on Putricide.
Don't be SOMEONE ELSE, but BE YOURSELF. However, be CONFIDENT that YOU are desirable, and that will MAKE you desirable.
Retosa out.
First of all, I laughed extremely hard at the fact that multiple people are offended by the OP... Without even reading it at all. While I agree it was an extremely long post, how can you argue against it without even reading it?
Thank you maximilian for the interesting post, and the entertaining thread that came with it.
Now, on to post my own thoughts. Very good advice, which places great emphasis on the fact that if "The Guy" is going to go after "The Girl", he has to be HIMSELF. Not a fake arrogant prick. But a confident, cocky, fully open and available version of himself.
Why guys seem to have issues acting themselves around women is just odd to me, personally (Well, now it is, after I got over my own fears). However, I do understand to an extent that emotions can, and do, get in the way of acting like yourself. For example; if a girl you're attracted to freaks out because of a spider, and you AREN'T afraid of spiders, yet freak out and kill it in a protective frenzy... You aren't acting like yourself. If you were in a long term relationship with her, you'd tease her. And this is exactly the kind of stuff that the OP points out. You have to actually be confident in yourself, and cocky to an extent. As cockiness is natural to someone who is confident. Cockiness IS NOT arrogance, and I can see arrogance as a turn off.
The OP's advice is centered around the guy, and how the guy views himself. Yes, there's trial and error. And if you run in doing everything exactly like he says, of course you're ignoring "The Guy's" and "The Girl's" personalities. However, advice guidlines can never be perfect when involving any form of relationship advice, so why complain about that fact? It's a guideline that uses the experiences of the person who wrote them to enhance the information given.
The information and advice is good, the exact situations and examples might not work for you, and you may want to tweak some of it as you gain experience yourself. But if you're just following the same procedure over and over again, always getting screwed over or stuck in that eternal "friend zone", then maybe you need the advice. That's not to say that being friends can't bring a relationship about. But if you're interested, and "The Girl" isn't, then you won't get that relationship if you fawn over her (Unless she wants a slave boy, but then you'll likely be cheated on, from my experiences in how those girls think, just saying). AKA don't be the doormat.
In essence, I approve of the OP. The advice was well thought out, and directed toward a target audience of those who have trouble being themselves and expressing themselves around women. One thing I have to add, which was hinted at in the OP, but not openly stated (as far as my memory goes, after reading all the comments before I started writing is that you NEED experience dealing with women. You're attracted to the girl, so try to be yourself. Let her know you love Dungeons and Dragons, and are capable of laughing at how you can kill a dragon with a pea shooter if you roll a 20 with a stupid piece of dice. Be confident of the fact that you play WoW and enjoy it, and laugh at the fact that you stand in the slime and get yelled at by your guildies as you wiped them on Putricide.
Don't be SOMEONE ELSE, but BE YOURSELF. However, be CONFIDENT that YOU are desirable, and that will MAKE you desirable.
Retosa out.
As a
1. treat your mom with love and respect ( it helps us see how you treat other women in life and especially US!)
2. have a brain and use it intelligence is sexy
3. a sense of humor is always good
4. be patient we can realize what a good bf we have for a friend, some of us are a little slower on realizing it than others
5. respect our quirks and we will do the same
OKRarhnor said:
1. treat your mom with love and respect ( it helps us see how you treat other women in life and especially US!)
2. have a brain and use it intelligence is sexy
3. a sense of humor is always good
4. be patient we can realize what a good bf we have for a friend, some of us are a little slower on realizing it than others
5. respect our quirks and we will do the same
Yeah, the OP is well-intended. The only thing that gets me about it is that it is most applicable to people like the OP. Still, dating is a matter of finding where the individual fits in. This seems like a good place to start for a lot of people, though. Girls included. I'm sure hot, decent guys don't like to be considered a piece of meat.Tehlanna TPX said:Girl's comment: Just be yourself. Don't change for a girl. If you're an arrogant asshole, and find that you can't get a gf, then you change for YOU... unless you enjoy being an arrogant asshole.. with an extremely strong right/left hand.
OP's advice was great, honestly, at the core. Because it says to just be you. Some women like fakes and posers, and hell you might luck out and find a chick who digs a slave boy. But by and large we just want a good friend who we can also screw and cuddle... and beat the shit out of in video games
Welcome, Retosa!Retosa said:
Please post more; people who put genuine effort into their contributions are the best thing any forum can ask for. Also, try stopping by the Escapist IRC channel or check out the 'Scapist usergroups under the "community" tab. here are plenty of interesting subgroups, there's likely a collection of people to suit your taste.
Right yeah cool whatever. You do realise that when you attempt to put your point across on the internet it might not achieve the desired effect? Believe me, I read your post and it didn't feel like you were politely giving advice. It read like a man who would manipulate himself and others to portray a false image when talking to women.maximilian said:
Blah blah blah cannot be bothered with you anymore. It's late, you're making me angry and my film is more interesting. Have fun with your 'woman'. I definitely believe that you have one. Quote me with a bitchy comment if you wish but I'm not gonna reply, sozz boss. Taking the lazy way out this time.