i also forgot to mention.. i find augmented breasts with implants unattractive as well. i also find certain face types unappealing and completely broken teeth and being far too thin is also a problem for me. but also a decent personality has to be along and they cant be stupid...i keep saying its hard not to sound like an asshole to respond with this.. and dont take my comments wrong..i can deal with some meat on the bones...but once it starts getting to big its crossing the line.
No, we are sapient beings and sexism is not innate. We have no need for, and should have no desire for an "alpha male", or male supremacist society.
Not all animals have an alpha male/patriarchal/male supremacist structure. There are matriarchal animals. And it sounds silly to see men get into such fights, like flame wars on the internet over who has the better taste in women's bodies.
This is getting off topic since this topic doesn't have anything to do with sexism. But humans have culture, those other animals do not. And our motivations and culture are complicated, far too complicated to just say we're motivated/hardwired for male domination and competition.
Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing now or what? Are you that jaded that you cannot accept things for what they are? Men are generally sexist (especially where I live) and men usually have an alpha male mindset - whether they know it or not. Men and women both are attracted to the things they are attracted to; this attraction usually cannot be explained by the people with the attraction and you are trying to understand your own and the attraction of everyone else.
I don't know why you went on this silly crusade, but good luck with that.
The attraction is a subconscious process we just feel the end results that affect our conscious decisions, it's like a pop-up reminding you there are updates available for X program, you got the end result of that checkup and are left with the choice how to proceed but what happened in the background you really can't know (unless you are the designer obviously).
My best understanding put crudely, our subconscious is scanning for suitable partners that will ensure the best offspring, so things like a womans figure and health all contribute in the assessment of her fertility and ultimately the level of our attraction.
But ofcourse we only get the "dude she's fucking hot" message to do our conscious part.
When I was a kid, chubby women with light brown skin were considered the zenith of beauty. Chubby but not fat- the round and rosy cheeked kind. Why? I don't know. Skin had to be what was called "pupa", which means light brown but not high enough to be yellowish or pale. If you looked like a white person people would be scared of touching you for fear of "contacting" albinism or some freaky localized skin discoloration. (Hee hee ignorance har de har har)
When I was in Uni, it was all about the boo-tay. b00bsies were entirely irrelevant- the perfect shape was to be stick thin with an enormous backside. Skin colour didn't seem to matter at the time, dont even remember it being an issue. Of course no-one had trouble with light skinned people at that time 'cos Uni = more white people walking about clearly not sick
Nowadays, its all about being stick thin but with enormous boobs and skin colour = the lighter the better. And white/mixed girls = goddesses, as long as they are stick thin with enormous boobs.
Same people. Tastes changing with the times. Wanna know something cool? Travel across the country and the criteria change, sometimes quite dramatically. I'm sure if someone conducted a study they would probably find some corellation with exposure to the Internet / satellite TV as opposed to locally made movies or just the average village girl.
In the end, there's only one constant- the "objects" of all this attention are female, for males.
So in the end, I think our bodies are just constantly finding ways to scam us into having kids so the species doesn't die out. Our so-called "beauty aesthetic" is just our conscious mind desperately trying to make sense of this enormous scam. In the end, one vagina is as good as another, and like the OP said what are boobs? Just adipose tissue and fat hanging off a woman's chest. The fact that I see a blinding light and hear a chorus of angels when a particularly appealing pair presents itself to me is of absolutely no consequence whatsoever.
Curves are interesting and hot. If it needs to be explained, then psychologically you probably aren't normal and likely had an abnormal upbringing, because it just can't be explained by most people.
wooty said:
Genetic programming, I see a cute girl, I go gooey, shit just happens.
Its like why do some people have similar attractions to cars or guns or *sigh* pc upgrades (true story, shall elaborate another time).
A lot of people blame women of being misandrists and "feminazis"(Godwin's law, anyone?). And yet I don't think it's feminism that drives women to misandry, feminism gives women hope about gender and faith in men. Faith that things can be better.
However, I think it's things like this that drive some people to misandry in their frustration.
I do agree that we are living in a male supremacist culture. I do not believe that many men are sexist because of hardwiring, like you, however. Giving sexism in society an excuse to be.
Stg said:
men usually have an alpha male mindset - whether they know it or not.
They often are! I agree with that! And especially that part about "whether they know it or not". The amazing thing about privilege is how blinding it can be. Blinding one to their own privilege, and the problems of society. Acting as if we are in a "post-sexism society". And then there's people who ignore evidence against such an obvious problem in society to begin with.
Where we differ, is that you take this as the natural hardwired order of things. Like this is the way things are meant to be. This isn't biology, it is a grave social problem.
Though this isn't a crusade. And this topic isn't about sexism. You provoked me by bringing evolutionary psychological ideas about male dominance in society into the topic. I don't see how asking "what's so attractive about women" is a crusade. Again, you're the one who brought up the gender loaded stuff about sexism in evolutionary psychology. I merely ridiculed a bit of one sided objectification on the side in my topic, it's not a crusade, it's a general musing of mine. It's normal to have musings to go in with the rest of your talk.
That is our default state and anomalies will always occur, you probably heard of the "woman trapped in a mans body" phenomenon, well mix and match that with our subconscious and you get all possible outcomes.
As for "child free but not asexual", like I said our subconscious only provides attraction-o-meter based on suitable partners and then our conscious mind is left to decide what to do with it.
Well then, might I have some explanation as to what's so nice about boobs?
You know, while a little bit more round than the penis, boobs seem to be an awfully phallic attraction. According to this thread, people like how boobs produce milk, a white, sticky fluid.
Yes, penis is often longer and less round, but it seems like in terms of big, people prefer wider penises, not longer. And the same do heterosexual men(and maybe lesbian women?) seem to like. Round, big, pieces of meat that stick out and produce white fluid, to stick into their mouthes. Sounds pretty phallic, to me. You'd think that people who liked large boobs would also be into penis.
Oh yes, and the nipples are kind of like a penis head, too. Especially if they're feminine and big and puffy nipples. How, very, phallic. Yes.
I'm a bisexual, but I'll have to admit that I'm more attracted to the male reproductive organs more than female. I can be attracted to women, but there are limits. I can't imagine how any man wants to put their face anywhere near the inside of a woman's extra hole, that bleeds constantly and on a regular basis. Furthermore, I don't understand the fixation many men have with shaving genitals. I hear little of people saying men should shave their genitals. And that's ironic, because I would think, the more that shields you from the inside of a person's vagina the better. You know, a nice veil of pubic hair to veil that weird looking hole. You know, that pees and bleeds and often looks like it has veins and strands of weird pink and purple. At least the penis looks like the color of a person's skin generally. The vagina looks like a hole in the body. Like, literally, the inside of everyone's body is usually pretty awful and creepy looking. Most people don't like watching videos of people's intestines, but what makes a woman's reproductive organs much different looking? I would think that someone who liked vaginas would want to be a dentist or something, because it seems like it would be an awful lot like getting up close and personal with people's throats and stuff. The penis actually looks like skin and stuff, so I can understand being attracted to it. But the vagina looks like a coral reef.
Which I can understand men not minding if they're just putting their penis in a hole and they don't have to think about what it looks like. But you know, it's just another hole, there are plenty where that came from on both men and women. And a mark of being a heterosexual men or lesbian woman or whatever, seems to be liking to get your face right up in that thing, no pubic hair or anything. To me that seems like wanting to put your tongue in a creepy dungeon full of snakes and bats and horrible gross monsters. Why do you want to go in that thing? Especially not without a torch and proper equipment.
God, that was a gross amount of sexual detail. You can hardly avoid such explanations in a topic like this, though.
I'm beginning to wonder if you're doing this on purpose. Nearly every single one of your points can be attacked with "the same applies to penises in some way or other", if not "that only applies to penises and not to vaginas". You're throwing pretty much any old argument at it. Sure, there's menstruation. That's the one thing that isn't shared (well, that and internal/external). Still not enough. Why is menstrual blood gross? As long as your partner is clean, you can spread that stuff on toast, brush your teeth with it, rub it in your eyes, anything.
I'm surprised you can even type the letter 'b' without throwing up, it being bilabial and all.
So I guess the point here is that..
LilithSlave said:
I figure if humans are capable of telling other people they have bad taste in their personal shallow judgment of another person's body. They ought to at least be able to explain why. Otherwise I think they can honestly shut their shallow mouthes and stop arguing about which women are better looking.
...you're asking for subjective standards? From who? All heterosexual men? All the women who don't hate female genitalia quite as much as you do? Okay, but my standards aren't very well-defined.
It depends on the person in question. I can't describe the sensation of someone's company without either using terrible, pretentious metaphors and analogies or having a specific person to talk about. I don't think I have a "type" outside of fetishes. If I like the woman, my brain seems to accommodate that. Sure, there are limits. I'm not attracted to people who are morbidly obese or dangerously underweight for instance, nor am I attracted to anyone who looks too male. Not sure how this works at all.
Damn it, I don't know. This turned out to be kind of a cop-out answer.
Well, I've tried to figure out what's so nice about, say, boobs and the like.
But every time I do, I can't seem to see what's more to them other than just being another piece of fat on the body.
And most perplexing about this, is that people who often say boobs make women beautiful and the like, also say things like "fat women are ugly". I could understand if the logic behind liking boobs was, "I like soft bodies", but the same people don't seem to like fat anywhere else.
It escapes me. Fat on the chest? Ok. Fat on the tummy? Not ok. Huh? What's the difference?
You kidding? I love a girl with a bit of a stomach. Not hanging over, or anything, but a little padding about the waist and thighs draws my attention like shiny foil to a magpie. Soft on top, firm beneath? Oh yeah. I'll all for that. I'll type some adjectives at you, to show you what I mean: Curvaceous. Voluptuous. Buxom. Luscious. Zaftig. Oh yeah. That's the stuff, right there. Have you seen a more beautiful set of adjectives? Feel how they love your tongue? That tingling sensation? Don't deny it, those adjectives are getting you a little excited, aren't they?
As to what goes through my mind after I notice such an astounding body? Mostly things along the lines of "whoo-hoo!", but I think I'll delve deeper to supply some meaning to those most tasteful of whoos. I think things like how great they would feel against my body, or how we might have a great date by staying in and baking some crazy delicious muffins then watching a movie or playing a game. I think about my bed will always be warm, or how comfortable we would be in an embrace, that I wouldn't need to be delicate with her, that it could get a bit rough, because she can stand up to some fun. I see a body that isn't afraid to get things done, or have fun when it wants. Part of it stems from my studies, where women that had some meat on their bones were well enough off to be able to afford the extra pounds, and another part of it comes from biology, of my DNA seeing a pair of 'child bearing' hips and evaluating the succession of my lineage, that with this field, the fruits of my loin shall grow strong.
All in all, it's a wonderful thing. Guys, while they can have great bodies, or soft bodies, or comfortable looking bodies that would always be there for you, just don't invoke the same reaction. The most I can muster up for a guy can be summed up by an old Penny Arcade comic, but it's not a strong reaction. The soft "meh, that's not bad" about guys hardly registers compared to the spectacularly resounding emotions created from some shapely curves.
I will also always prefer the natural girl to a cosmetic one, as well. Makeups and surgeries, these things I do not like. Now tattoos on the other hand...well, those are a whole different bowl of additions.
And since so many people seem to act like women are objectively beautiful. It'd certainly be nice to have at least as much of an explanation as much as people make aesthetic explanations all the time about why a flower or a painting is beautiful. At least when people call a painting beautiful, they're typically able to explain what they find beautiful about the painting.
After hearing a good explanation about why a painting I'm not particularly entranced by, is beautiful, I often can at least see a side of the painting I never did before. I can say, "oh, I see what you see about the painting now, yeah, I guess that kind of makes sense, even if I don't particularly find it beautiful". But women, no, nobody has an explanation as good as the painting as to why we're so beautiful. And why we have thousands of beauty products men to not.
I'm going with the "What's so attractive about men?" option.
To be fair, you can make anything sound bad if you break it down to its base element. For example, what is so good about video games? All you're doing is pressing buttons on a controller!
Honestly? You don't sound bisexual. At all. I don't mean this in a bad way; many of my friends are gay. But I've never met a heterosexual or bisexual male who would even ask themselves the question you are posing, let alone this forum.
Well this one is kinda a weird complex question, I mean we're all different so yeah we all are attracted to people for different reasons. Personally I'd say a big part of it is the whole media fixation and deifying of women with certain features (big tits, round asses, flat everywhere else) sort of the Jessica Rabbit look (forgetting that that's completely impossible) although if you're asking why do some guys just loose their shit because there's a decently attractive female involved I'd say because those guys have no control impulses and yes I mean you person reading this who only saw Transformers for Megan Fox
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