I'm super depressed about sexism in gaming...

[Phasmal]

What I don't like is that when men create their own space where they can be away from women there is an immediate uproar. Some dudes just want an area or an activity where there is no women not for sexist reasons but for their own well being because everyone needs a break from the opposite gender. Women have their own safe spaces and their own activities so why cant we?

I just don't like how we must accommodate women for everything; I want a mens only video game club where I can relax, make crude comments and rape jokes, play video games and drink with other dudes. Some men aren't comfortable around women; they can suffer from anxiety, turn into competitive assholes trying to impress the girl or whiteknights.

Just don't make a big deal out of it everyone can play games.

You want a video game club like that, go make one.
Problem is when some dudes try and turn the whole thing into a guys club when it really isn't and nor should it be.
Games are a medium of entertainment. They're not a dude thing. Not a lady thing. They're just a thing.

I'm not asking to be `accomodated`, especially not when I've been here the whole damn time (longer than a bunch of the dudes who think gaming is `theirs`). Just asking people not generally be fuckheads. Do it privately!
If you wanna get your own mumble server for being as rude as you like on, I would support that 100%.

 

[MetalMagpie]

Where are these guys? Is this an American thing? Can you link me to any blog posts expressing the view that women shouldn't play video games (with comments showing support)?

As I said elsewhere in this thread, Not In The Kitchen Anymore is a blog about a girl's CoD experience, and a lot of it is pretty bad.

Fat, Ugly Or Slutty is another blog about the same kind of thing.

Also, you have devs like David Jaffe making crude comments about if you let your girlfriend beat you at Twisted Metal she'll be so thrilled she'll give you a blowjob. And the recent 'Girlfriend Mode' fiasco, and so on and so forth.

There's a massive sexist element to the culture, and while talking about it incessantly may be a source of irritation to some, that doesn't mean it's not a problem and shouldn't be addressed as one.

Surely talking about "gaming culture" is a bit like talking about "TV-watching culture"? The video game industry is now worth more than the Hollywood film industry. I've seen stats that say 70% of Americans (and 90% of American children) play video games. With that many people, there are bound to be some sexist twats in the mix!

"Fat, Ugly Or Slutty" appears to be just people sending in screencaps of not-nice things people have said to them online. I've had plenty of not-nice things said to me online that were nothing to do with my gender (or the fact I play video games)! People can be real assholes when given anonymity. How is this new?

The "Girlfriend mode fiasco" is (in my opinion - don't shoot me) a hilarious example of an internet over-reaction. If any women were honestly offended by that (as opposed to just having their beady-eyes on the lookout for anything remotely "sexist") then they seriously need to grow a thicker skin. Am I going to offend all guys of the world by suggesting a toilet with a self-lowering seat be called the "boyfriend model"?

*puts down the stick and backs away from the dead horse*

There was a story that made the rounds in UK newspapers recently about a male broadcaster making a comment that a female athlete was "maybe a bit too heavy". He meant in reference to her particular sport, but naturally the whole "female body image problems" brigade came out of the closet for the event. But at no point in the whole hilarious fiasco did anyone suggest that there was a problem with the "culture of sport". People just thought he personally was being an insensitive twat.

Sorry if I seem argumentative - I really don't mean to be. I'm just a little baffled. If this is a "problem that needs to be addressed" with the "gaming culture" then how come the only way I know about it is through threads like this? It's like those Christians who insist we are at war with demons and must be constantly vigilant.

 

[OrenjiJusu]

I wonder how much of the sexism in gaming communities is just a result of people wanting to fit in with the crowd. I know i've said things in groups in the past i wouldn't ever say in private to a person. It is far too easy to get swept up with a majority and be left with the idea that "They all think that! So it must be true!".

Not saying this is an excuse to tell every female gamer to get back in the kitchen and make me a "sammich", people should voice their own ideas rather than try to find someone elses they agree with. I'm just wondering how many people are truly mysoginistic, and how many just think thats what they have to say to fit in.

As an aside I had an idea about adding a toggle to games to change the outfits of female characters (and I guess, maybe even male characters.) That way we can stop women feeling put off by PVC clad nuns without depriving the lads of their eye candy. Seems simple doesn't it. Considering a lot of games already have costume changes I don't think it would be that difficult to implement either.

I would really love this option. Seriously, I like breasts as much as any teenager, but it gets pretty tiresome seeing every major female character dressed like they just came out of a S'n'M party after a while.

 

[MetalMagpie]

Where are these guys? Is this an American thing? Can you link me to any blog posts expressing the view that women shouldn't play video games (with comments showing support)?

Its the new thing on the forums you see. With EA bashing on the way out the forums are taking to bash developers for saying anything that can be misinterpreted or exaggerated.

I am really sick of the "Misogyny is inherent to the Gaming Industry" type of bitching, all it is doing going to do is put developers under even more pressure and restrict them even further.

Maybe I should just give the forums a wide berth for the next few weeks. Although this gender thing feels like it's been going on for ages already...

Can we just agree that video games are no more "inherently sexist" than films, books, music or any other type of entertainment media and move on? Or start some sort of "lead by example" idea where we don't constantly point out that there are statistically fewer women than men in some gaming circles by having endless discussions about it?

If I spend too long reading these threads, I might actually start believing that I'm a persecuted minority! :s

 

[Ninjamedic]

Can we just agree that video games are no more "inherently sexist" than films, books, music or any other type of entertainment media and move on? Or start some sort of "lead by example" idea where we don't constantly point out that there are statistically fewer women than men in some gaming circles by having endless discussions about it?

If I spend too long reading these threads, I might actually start believing that I'm a persecuted minority! :s

We should be more optimistic, gaming on the whole is better than ever, especially when it comes to gender politics.

 

[WaysideMaze]

Why is it so wrong for female assassin's in disguise to be killed in an over the top fashion? Did anyone ever care about all the men dying in ridiculous ways in Bulletstorm? Did any guys complain about Nathan Drake suffering in the desert in Uncharted 3? so why Lara? No wonder no dev wants to develop female characters because they are always put under a magnifying glass by radical feminists and white knights that are okay with men being killed or threatened but not their gender, as if their sex is better.

That's not what the problem with the Hitman trailer was. The problem a lot of people seemed to have was that they were dressed in fetish gear. Had they been dressed in full combat gear, or hell, even if they just kept the nun outfit as a nun outfit, there would have been no uproar (in this post I'm ignoring the fact that the trailer didn't look like a hitman trailer, and instead looked like an advert for a Statham film).

People are all for a killer squad of assassin women, that would be fine, but fetishizing them, and dressing them up in bondage gear just screams of pandering to teenage boys. It's unnecessary.

I'm not going to touch the Lara Croft issue.

 

[FoolKiller]

it's about the simple attitude some guys have towards women playing video games.

Ironically, you summed up the entire purpose of the thread in that one line of your opening paragraph: "some guys". Some guys are assholes no matter what happens. They're opinions count just as much as anyone elses even if they are blatantly wrong.

This works on the assumption that all developers are male and the only people who are allowed to have an opinion about games are people who make them

Once again, everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, the only opinions that matter are the ones belonging to the developers (male or female). They get paid to make the game. If you don't like the game, you can choose not to play it but you have no right to tell them to do something differently. You may make suggestions but at the end of the day it's their game and not yours.

Lastly the existence of female cons like 'Geek Girl Con' do not prove that 'men should be allowed to exclude women too'

No. It doesn't prove that men should be allowed to exclude women but it does mean that you couldn't complain if men did the male equivalent of this and it also causes an unfortunate double standard that doesn't help your case. You can't demand to be treated the same as the males, and then go out and get special treatment.

Personally, I agree with the sentiment of your post. I just think its a matter of time and the natural progression of things. A not so long time ago, not only was it a heavily male hobby, but an unpopular one at that. As the popularity and acceptance of the hobby along with the natural increase in female gamers has led it to become more well-rounded. Gaming is still young as a medium and its in an awkward gangly adolescent phase where it hasn't fully matured into what it is capable of. Hopefully we get there sooner rather than later because there will be many great things if it does.

 

[Toilet]

What I don't like is that when men create their own space where they can be away from women there is an immediate uproar. Some dudes just want an area or an activity where there is no women not for sexist reasons but for their own well being because everyone needs a break from the opposite gender. Women have their own safe spaces and their own activities so why cant we?

I just don't like how we must accommodate women for everything; I want a mens only video game club where I can relax, make crude comments and rape jokes, play video games and drink with other dudes. Some men aren't comfortable around women; they can suffer from anxiety, turn into competitive assholes trying to impress the girl or whiteknights.

Just don't make a big deal out of it everyone can play games.

You want a video game club like that, go make one.
Problem is when some dudes try and turn the whole thing into a guys club when it really isn't and nor should it be.
Games are a medium of entertainment. They're not a dude thing. Not a lady thing. They're just a thing.

I'm not asking to be `accomodated`, especially not when I've been here the whole damn time (longer than a bunch of the dudes who think gaming is `theirs`). Just asking people not generally be fuckheads. Do it privately!
If you wanna get your own mumble server for being as rude as you like on, I would support that 100%.

I agree, videogames are a neutral thing that can be entertained by all but.

Asking people on the internet not to be "fuckheads" is as futile as trying to command to the tides. Thanks to the anonymity of the internet people will find any reason to insult you and the only way to act against it is the mute and report buttons.

People can be sexist but they can also be racist, biased, ignorant and insult you for many reasons. It's the nature of the anonymity blessed by the internet.

 

[Phasmal]

I agree, videogames are a neutral thing that can be entertained by all but.

Asking people on the internet not to be "fuckheads" is as futile as trying to command to the tides. Thanks to the anonymity of the internet people will find any reason to insult you and the only way to act against it is the mute and report buttons.

People can be sexist but they can also be racist, biased, ignorant and insult you for many reasons. It's the nature of the anonymity blessed by the internet.

For sure. But those same people shouldn't cry when/if they get banned for being asses.

I generally do just mute-report-move on.

 

[Fappy]

The gender threads, they will never die!

I agree with the OP and most of the site's regular posters probably do to varying degrees. Can we talk about something else now?

 

[MetalMagpie]

Surely talking about "gaming culture" is a bit like talking about "TV-watching culture"? The video game industry is now worth more than the Hollywood film industry. I've seen stats that say 70% of Americans (and 90% of American children) play video games. With that many people, there are bound to be some sexist twats in the mix!

Okay, I understand what you're getting at, but 'TV culture' does get a lot of flak for the way women are represented or treated - it just usually gets that flak broken up and directed at different terms within the culture: 'the media', for instance, or 'advertising agencies' or whatever.

That sort of break-up is exactly what I'm talking about. People don't talk about the entire of "TV culture" being at fault. They talk about particular types of advertising (such as cosmetics) or particular TV shows being problematic.

But I suppose 'gamer culture' is a bit to nebulous and unwieldy to be very descriptive. So I suppose that particular appellation ought be dropped in favor of something more direct? The 'boy's club mentality' perhaps?

Possibly. But I'm not entirely sure I see much evidence that a "boy's club mentality" even exists in any real way related to gaming. I haven't seen any organised groups of men determined to preserve "traditional values in gaming" or some other such nonsense.

"Fat, Ugly Or Slutty" appears to be just people sending in screencaps of not-nice things people have said to them online. I've had plenty of not-nice things said to me online that were nothing to do with my gender (or the fact I play video games)! People can be real assholes when given anonymity. How is this new?

The behavior isn't new at all. The discussion is relatively new, however.

The behaviour isn't new or tied to gaming. It's a general problem with the internet. It is worth discussing, but it's not a "gaming problem".

The "Girlfriend mode fiasco" is (in my opinion - don't shoot me) a hilarious example of an internet over-reaction. If any women were honestly offended by that (as opposed to just having their beady-eyes on the lookout for anything remotely "sexist") then they seriously need to grow a thicker skin. Am I going to offend all guys of the world by suggesting a toilet with a self-lowering seat be called the "boyfriend model"?

I agree that this was blown way out of proportion by many. But it speaks to a larger mindset. It isn't what he said so much as the fact that in his head the stereotype is equivalent to the reality. He and the people around him just naturally assume that girls must be bad at this.

I really don't think that's what he meant. There's a cliche (very accurate in many cases!) that guys who play video games will often try to get their girlfriends (who are less likely to play video games) to game with them. (Because, well, sharing things with your partner is fun.) But unless they have some sort of natural gift, those non-gamer girlfriends are unlikely to be very good at it on their first couple of attempts. So having an easier character they can use in a coop game like Borderlands gives them a chance to play alongside their pro-gamer boyfriend without getting too left behind.

Before meeting my boyfriend, the only FPS I'd ever played was about ten minutes of Halo online (during which I died a lot). My boyfriend used Borderlands to get me into shooters because it was a game we could play together. So he could offer me support (largely in the form of bullets) as I got to grips with a new type of game. This worked mainly because of careful class selection. I took the sniper so I could hide at the rear while he took point with the soldier. It felt fantastic to be able to work as a team like that, even if (for the first few hours) his kill count far outstripped mine.

Back to "girlfriend mode": If he meant that girls are bad at gaming, why didn't he say "girl mode"? In fact, here's what he actually said (emphasis mine):

I want to make, for the lack of a better term, the girlfriend skill tree. This is, I love Borderlands and I want to share it with someone, but they suck at first-person shooters. Can we make a skill tree that actually allows them to understand the game and to play the game? That's what our attempt with the Best Friends Forever skill tree is.

The Escapist actually did a really nice feature on this sort of scenario:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_268/8028-Real-Life-Sidekick

As such, it speaks to the boy's club mentality that so many immature male gamers cling to, for whatever reason. Gaming is a male hobby, they think, and as such any female presence within it must exist for male gratification - i.e. Jaffe's remarks.

This is what I was asking for when I asked for blog posts. Where are the "boy's club bloggers", evangelizing from their soap-boxes that only guys should play games? I've never heard this view expressed by anyone.

Well, okay, but the 'culture of sport' doesn't tend to pander to and subtly justify the attitudes of insensitive twats. Female athletes aren't forced to wear outfits that highlight their sexual attributes to the detriment of their performance, nor are they considered an anomaly, nor are they assumed to be athletes purely for male attention.

Have you seen beach volleyball? And I think plenty of female video games characters have proved (in defiance of all logic) that their outfits are not detrimental to their performance!

Jokes aside, I still don't see any evidence that female gamers are seen as an anomaly. It's no secret that characters like Cloud (from FF VII) are madly popular with the female audience. And Maxis have released three games (and countless expansion packs) for something that is basically a virtual dolls-house! Maybe a new argument could be started that it's only within genres such as RTS or FPS that female gamers are seen as strange, but even that doesn't seem to be true any more (judging by the groans and eye-rolls that greet any proud announcement of "I'm a girl who plays CoD - bow down in adoration boys").

It's my primary entertainment medium, and probably the primary medium for a lot of people here, so when we see something sexist in it we speak out, because we don't want something that is important to us to be associated with that kind of attitude.

I really don't think you have to worry about that. I don't think the "common man" doesn't sees video gaming as sexist. So you've no need to defend it from that. Sometimes the common man gets worried about the amount of violence, so that might be worth some more PR work on!

But, for me at least, sexism is often a big-picture thing. I doubt anyone in the games industry is overtly sexist; it's just, they don't produce things or say things in a vacuum. There is a bigger picture at play - gender dynamics exist within the framework of all society. You can't forget that when you're releasing any art or entertainment into that society. If you don't consider how a girl will react to Agent 47 breaking a BDSM nun's nose with a headbutt then you're missing a lot of important context about sexualization, victimization, violence against women, fetishization of violence, and so on.

I guess that's the difference. I see sexism the same way I see any form of intolerance. It's measured by harm against individuals. I was once served in a pub by a guy who thought it was funny to refuse to tell me how much my drinks cost ("That'll be £2000, love. Nah I'm only kidding. It'll be £200"). Then when giving me my change, he kept jerking the note away from me when I tried to take it, as if he was teasing a small child. All the while he kept laughing and winking at my boyfriend (who was standing next to me) as if this was a shared joke between them. I just didn't know what to say. I felt humiliated. When I finally managed to get my change, pick up the damn drinks and walk away from the bar, I felt like crying.

To me, sexism is not a matter of deciding certain words or images are "sexist". It wasn't the fact that the guy kept calling me "love" that was the problem. (Plenty of other people - male and female - have called me "love"; it's pretty common in pubs.) It was the way he said it, and (more importantly) the way he made me feel. That barman treated me with no respect as a paying customer, or even as an adult. And - as evidenced by the fact he behaved completely differently when a guy approached the bar - he did so because he didn't think I was worth his respect. I was a young woman buying drinks, and that was somehow funny.

I have never - in my entire life - been treated as less than an equal by a male gamer. Maybe I've been lucky, but it's true all the same.

 

[twohundredpercent]

If you want people to stop focus on you being female and shift the conversation towards games, this isn't helping lol

Also go to different forums maybe. Perhaps one that remembers there being girls who played games before 2011.

Maybe one that's a bit more used to females so they don't either flock around or roll their eyes at you.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

There is some particularly nasty you tube videos with plenty of likes. I have been kicked from multiplayer games before the game has even started because they have asked me a question and found out I'm a girl, been sent lude images and messages and been told I can't play pvp

When I ran a guild in WOW people though my best mate was my bf and I was only playing cos of him.

I understand if you have never experienced it but I guess you are lucky like you have said.

Sorry if I haven't answered people I stopped posting because I thought it was a non issue and everyone was saying the thread was pointless...

So yeah...forget I said anything

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

That's not really what I was getting at but even if you approach it from a 'creative rights point of view' Not all games developers are men so this reasoning is erroneous. Gaming doesn't belong to a single gender. If it was I could argue Yahtzee could never critique quantum conundrum or Portal because he isn't a woman.

I?m not saying gaming belongs to a gender, I?m saying games belong to their creators, which at this point is still largely men. I?m also not saying because of this the opposing genders opinions aren?t as valid. I?m merely stating that we give more credence to the opinions of the creators because it?s their work. I think we could agree that while Yahtzee is an amusing if arrogant about his reviews; he does them in the appropriate spirit.

I understand what you are saying but you have to see that sometimes the opinions people have can be accurate. I mean anyone with eyes can see Ivy from Soul Calibur is an oversexualised representation of a woman that makes some women feel demeaned and uncomfortable, I have a theory women tend to put themselves 'in the shoes' of their avatars more than men (which leads to these problems). Both Susan Arendt and I both stopped playing the Soul Calibur series because it just felt like playing in a strip club eventually.

I?m sorry to say that pointing out you offense doesn?t make someone ?wrong? for enjoying it. You?re allowed to be offended, at pretty much whatever you want. But you?re not allowed to tell others they can?t enjoy something because you?re offended. And that?s the big disconnect. You?ve taken the appropriate response by simply not playing a game you don?t enjoy, for whatever reason that might be. The problem within the controversy is that some women don?t, and they ask the developers to change something. An opinion can be valid, but its validity doesn?t make it anymore ?correct? then someone else?s opinion. Opinions are not facts, and they need to stop being represented as such.

There are metric fuck tons of examples within the word where people attempt to change something if not outright ban it from creation because they find fault in it, while others happen to enjoy it. We can?t suit everyone?s sensibilities. The best we can do is offer as much content as possibly which as many demographics can enjoy. But one man?s delicious bacon sandwich is another man?s animal cruelty.

No it really isn't a valid response.

Unfortunately it is. When someone attempts to point out your error, you have every right to request they show you how to do it correctly. Theory and practice are two completely different things, and people who have performing something successfully for a long period of time are hesitant to change what?s been working merely because someone else has the idea it might work better another way. They should be the ones to prove it, not demand that others assume the risk of their ideas.

Also if you view Jim Sterling's recent video, complaining is basically the best tool gamers have to get their views implemented. Just look at the Mass Effect business.

I don?t like Sterling, so I don?t view his videos. See how easy that was?

To finish answering this point I'm pretty happy with games as they are it's only the portrayal of women that bothers me which I'm sure is true of other female gamers too. I mean, we wouldn't be gamers otherwise would we.

How would you respond to the inquiry that it?s only within recent history that this has suddenly become an issue?

I would say, and of course this is generalising, that most women don't want games to run into Barbie or Twilight we just want our sex to be shown a little more respect within the medium of narrative and artistic representation. I'm not sure that's a greatly terrible thing to ask especially if you made it optional like my clothing idea. Women are already voting with their wallets. Bethesda's Fallout, Mass Effect and Dark Souls (I know right) all have massive female followings purely because they allow us to play a female 'heroine' on an equal footing with a guy.

I have no issue with females within games to be shown equal treatment. I take issue with women taking offense at women being shown equal treatment in said games. As an example, I am put off by those claiming Kratos? character advocates violence against women. And of course, violence perpetrated against a player character when she?s a female, and not a male (Lara Croft).

Of course, given the nature of narrative and artistic representations, you will always find characters of either genders adhering to various stereotypes for whatever reason. Either the narrative calls for it, or some writer just feels like being lazy. I hope that we recognize that character archetypes will always be repeated to varying degrees, so let?s not demand that every single character receives a gloss of positive traits just because we like that particular archetype a little more.

A for what is preventing women form attending cons, I don't know I myself would love to go to all the cons if I had the money but if I had to guess it would be the expectation of the same treatment we get on xbox live and the idea that those cons are heavily male centric with booth babes and a large male presence which can be quite intimidating. I know a guy who was nervous about Weight Watchers because of the amount of women there.

Seems like a self fulfilling prophecy to me. A lot of women attend cons and have fun at them. I?ve seen a lot of creativity in the costumes people wear when the Escapist has their pictures posted, women included. To my knowledge, it?s extremely rare when you?ll run into the likes of xbox live delinquents at a con.

It would be an ideal solution for me. I mean you don't really get women complaining about mods such as ones that put Serena in her underwear or have skimpy Fallout 3 costumes. So I "think" that the majority of female gamers would be absolutely fine with that. Especially in single player games.

Please take this opinion to certain vocal women?s groups. A lot of them find the nature of these mods incredibly damaging to women, and the argument would be taking with a little more seriousness if it came from a woman. You may then realize why so many men are resistant to have these discussions as sometimes they can be entirely unreasonable.

Another issue I have is the fact that in an RPG the female character is often treated the same as a guy and there is little representation for straight women in some dialogue option. Sometimes we are ignored outright (marriage options in KOA). Frankly if there is another option I pick then that's great but it would be nice if the women I just turned down didn't continue to flirt with me like I'm the last burger in hungry town and the Male NPC's act like I'm chopped liver However I guess we have seen the controversy that Ander's wrought when he came onto guys male characters (that's pretty much how women feel a lot of the time in RPG's)

Not familiar with these personally, but it?s my understanding that pretty much any relationship dynamic within games will have people decrying it. I believe the lack of options is primarily a financially motivated one; writing, scripting, voice over?s, coding, it just costs a ton of money.

Wooo sorry for the long post but your answer was very reasonable and deserved a proper response.

Amazing what kind of conversations people can have where they aren?t screaming; ?OMG you misogynist asshole! Female empowerment! Men are pigs! Patriarchy! Rawr!? while responding with; ?get back in the kitchen and make me a samich *****! Tits or gtfo! You jelly brah??

Also I apologize if something I said/spelling is not amazing I'm a bit poorly atm lol

What?s funny is I understood you perfectly until this sentence.

 

[Rainboq]

So umm yeah, this deserved a thread? Yeah, we get it. I think we ALL get it by now, I could have sworn I've seen this posted so many times.

I couldn't help but read the entire post in his voice. And I totally agree.

Then why did you click on the thread It's not the only one on the forum.

Specifically to tell you what was said above.
Maybe I come across as rude, I assure you this is not my intention. It's just that
girls need to be patient, the market will one day balance.

And you know what? Bitching and moaning about it speeds up the process. Sure, one day, maybe women might have gotten the vote, but by rising up and protesting, they got it a hell of a lot faster.

OT: I completely agree with the OP, in thanks, I give you ponies:

 

[Treblaine]

I don't buy it that women are put off by seeing women in games.

The entire women's magazine industry is dedicated page after page after page of women dressed in very little.

I think Moonlight has stated before in other threads that her problem is not with the women themselves but the idea that male players would be looking at the women depicted.