eh, maybe the two boys had it coming. maybe they said something about the other guys mommies! unforgivable
In the UK boys of 10 and 11 jailed for...
- Thread starter MattW456
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*Yawn*
Let me be honest, this isn't a problem with any society in general, it's just part of humanity. The "OMG it's children doing it" aspect of things is simply ignorance about what children are capable of, and arguably always have been capable of. People in the US look at things like "The Hitler Youth", "Saddam's Lion Cubs", or the young children fighting with the Warlords in Africa and tend to think that it's some wierd exception due to those cultures, missing the central point that kids have always been capable of this kind of thing.
People also tend to rapidly forget that there was a time when people who lived to 30 or 40 had enjoyed a full life and lived to a ripe old age. If kids weren't capable of more than we think now, then human civilization simply would not be here.
That said, we periodically see things like this, columbine, or a case when *I* was a kid about a group of Jr. High School students who wanted to kill someone for kicks. So they convinced a kid they didn't care for to come over to the house of a girl (who didn't like him much in reality) to hang out with her alone. He was supposedly sitting by the pool, when the girl came out in a bikini and posed for him (despite the age) while two of her (male) friends came up behind him and strangled him with an electrical cord. Apparently it was a big deal since the kid (going to meet a girl) didn't tell anyone where he was going, and when the body was found nobody suspected he would have been with people he didn't get along with until much later.
It's been a while so I could have some details of that one wrong, but really when I was very young that was the story *I* remember hearing.
With better TV, Radio, and the Internet we get this kind of information globally within minutes in many cases (much faster than during the 1980s when we thought we were fast). Columbine, a kid getting stabbed over Pokemon cards, a 12 year old being worshipped as the god of death (or whatever it was) in Africa while leading his own death squads... it's always been here.
You can't blame our consumerist society, "societies" differant from our own have the same problem. Chances are if you DON'T see this stuff in other nations it's because the goverment has more control over the press than the people believe and they keep a lot of it relatively low key (and there are various reasons for doing so, some of which are fairly benevolent). You can't blame video games or TV since this kind of thing had been happening beforehand (though in many cases you might need to check old newspapers and such). If Lizzie Borden had done her thing today, chances are we'd be blaming video games.
Really, I think politics needs to be kept out of this. No matter what we do to change society, or what power we surrender to the goverment, it's STILL going to happen. The quintessential "evil child" of horror fiction has been part of the human psyche for a very long time because of such incidents. Most children are nice and innocent, but there always have been those who are differant and just do things, oftentimes without an apparently (sane) motive.
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When it comes to other "crimes" of a differant sort, like the raping of a 4 year old girl, I don't think "the world is going to hell". Actually it's a sign of progress that such things are unusual enough where they get a reaction. Once upon a time that would have just been life.
A group of vikings or whatever would hop in a longboat, get beered up, and then go sailing down to some settlement for kicks raping, killing, and pillaging just because it was fun. A 4 year old girl in many cases would just be a few minutes amusement.
This is to say nothing of say Pirates centuries later (who used to be fairly common, as opposed to limited mostly to the third world).
Today you don't have to worry about some guy who is a noble, or maybe just the employer your family depends on to eat (say the only guy with a business in a mining town or whatever) coming up and saying "Hey, we're throwing a party tonight, and we'd really like to rape, torture, and kill your daughter as part of the entertainment. Don't worry, we'll cover the funeral expenses... thanx". When it came to nobles and royalty in some places they actually owned you for most purposes and had legal rights in support of things like this, and even taking the virginity of your wife.
With the old-school pre-union company towns ("I owe my soul to the company store...") the atrocities they committed were totally illegal, but really nobody could do anything about it. These guys paid the authoities, there was no mass communication on the current level (and nobody really cared), and even if you found someone who DID care the company would just hire a bunch of muscle from a group like Pinkertons (which is why when organized unions fought them it was a big deal).
People who whine about how horribly America is losing it, TOTALLY forget what America has been like in the past. You had guys like Dillinger and Bonnie and Clyde pretty much going whereever they wanted, and doing whatever they wanted. You had guys like Capone taking over entire cities. Later you had Biker Gangs basically taking over towns and dividing the nation up between them by club (and even today some of these territories are fairly respected by the law though it's nothing like it once was).
Right now America is in pretty bloody good shape, we just like to whine. We also tend to forget when railing about the laws and authority that such things exist for a reason. People call Hoover a cross dressing fascist for example, but in reality he did what was nessicary to deal with a lot of the problems I mention, and we largely live in safety he created, with a very nice balance.
A lot of rambling, but basically I'd also like to say that I eagerly await the day some liberal will become so detached from reality that they will try and claim that a lot of the "classic" gangsters were inspired by video game violence. Especially the younger ones.
Let me be honest, this isn't a problem with any society in general, it's just part of humanity. The "OMG it's children doing it" aspect of things is simply ignorance about what children are capable of, and arguably always have been capable of. People in the US look at things like "The Hitler Youth", "Saddam's Lion Cubs", or the young children fighting with the Warlords in Africa and tend to think that it's some wierd exception due to those cultures, missing the central point that kids have always been capable of this kind of thing.
People also tend to rapidly forget that there was a time when people who lived to 30 or 40 had enjoyed a full life and lived to a ripe old age. If kids weren't capable of more than we think now, then human civilization simply would not be here.
That said, we periodically see things like this, columbine, or a case when *I* was a kid about a group of Jr. High School students who wanted to kill someone for kicks. So they convinced a kid they didn't care for to come over to the house of a girl (who didn't like him much in reality) to hang out with her alone. He was supposedly sitting by the pool, when the girl came out in a bikini and posed for him (despite the age) while two of her (male) friends came up behind him and strangled him with an electrical cord. Apparently it was a big deal since the kid (going to meet a girl) didn't tell anyone where he was going, and when the body was found nobody suspected he would have been with people he didn't get along with until much later.
It's been a while so I could have some details of that one wrong, but really when I was very young that was the story *I* remember hearing.
With better TV, Radio, and the Internet we get this kind of information globally within minutes in many cases (much faster than during the 1980s when we thought we were fast). Columbine, a kid getting stabbed over Pokemon cards, a 12 year old being worshipped as the god of death (or whatever it was) in Africa while leading his own death squads... it's always been here.
You can't blame our consumerist society, "societies" differant from our own have the same problem. Chances are if you DON'T see this stuff in other nations it's because the goverment has more control over the press than the people believe and they keep a lot of it relatively low key (and there are various reasons for doing so, some of which are fairly benevolent). You can't blame video games or TV since this kind of thing had been happening beforehand (though in many cases you might need to check old newspapers and such). If Lizzie Borden had done her thing today, chances are we'd be blaming video games.
Really, I think politics needs to be kept out of this. No matter what we do to change society, or what power we surrender to the goverment, it's STILL going to happen. The quintessential "evil child" of horror fiction has been part of the human psyche for a very long time because of such incidents. Most children are nice and innocent, but there always have been those who are differant and just do things, oftentimes without an apparently (sane) motive.
-
When it comes to other "crimes" of a differant sort, like the raping of a 4 year old girl, I don't think "the world is going to hell". Actually it's a sign of progress that such things are unusual enough where they get a reaction. Once upon a time that would have just been life.
A group of vikings or whatever would hop in a longboat, get beered up, and then go sailing down to some settlement for kicks raping, killing, and pillaging just because it was fun. A 4 year old girl in many cases would just be a few minutes amusement.
This is to say nothing of say Pirates centuries later (who used to be fairly common, as opposed to limited mostly to the third world).
Today you don't have to worry about some guy who is a noble, or maybe just the employer your family depends on to eat (say the only guy with a business in a mining town or whatever) coming up and saying "Hey, we're throwing a party tonight, and we'd really like to rape, torture, and kill your daughter as part of the entertainment. Don't worry, we'll cover the funeral expenses... thanx". When it came to nobles and royalty in some places they actually owned you for most purposes and had legal rights in support of things like this, and even taking the virginity of your wife.
With the old-school pre-union company towns ("I owe my soul to the company store...") the atrocities they committed were totally illegal, but really nobody could do anything about it. These guys paid the authoities, there was no mass communication on the current level (and nobody really cared), and even if you found someone who DID care the company would just hire a bunch of muscle from a group like Pinkertons (which is why when organized unions fought them it was a big deal).
People who whine about how horribly America is losing it, TOTALLY forget what America has been like in the past. You had guys like Dillinger and Bonnie and Clyde pretty much going whereever they wanted, and doing whatever they wanted. You had guys like Capone taking over entire cities. Later you had Biker Gangs basically taking over towns and dividing the nation up between them by club (and even today some of these territories are fairly respected by the law though it's nothing like it once was).
Right now America is in pretty bloody good shape, we just like to whine. We also tend to forget when railing about the laws and authority that such things exist for a reason. People call Hoover a cross dressing fascist for example, but in reality he did what was nessicary to deal with a lot of the problems I mention, and we largely live in safety he created, with a very nice balance.
A lot of rambling, but basically I'd also like to say that I eagerly await the day some liberal will become so detached from reality that they will try and claim that a lot of the "classic" gangsters were inspired by video game violence. Especially the younger ones.
I think he's right, it would certainly act as a deterrent to other shitbags who would even consider doing what these little bastards did, I mean if I knew where the kids or their families lived and I lived nearby I would gather up as many of my friends as I could and burn down their homes.
In reference to post no. 63 by the way
In reference to post no. 63 by the way
Another method of not so bad punishment would be to make it so that the next serious crime they commit (GBH, Arson with intent to cause harm etc) should carry the death penalty as they have already been given a chance to be with the general populace. Or they should be sent to a forced labour camp.
And raped...repeatedly.
And raped...repeatedly.
Lol No really the only thing these kids respect is violence, they need a genuine sense of fear instilled in them . The line between right and wrong has ben too blurred for them and they act in the most barbaric ways. Not just these kids im talking about that whole culture that is spreading through the youth. 12 year olds drinking and having sex? When did that become okay?MusicalFreedom said:
Btw what do you suggest we do with them?
i skim read that as i am an impatient person, and i understand the whole idea of advancement, but i hope you didnt just defend the killing, attacking and raping of young children >.>Therumancer said:*Yawn*
Let me be honest, this isn't a problem with any society in general, it's just part of humanity. The "OMG it's children doing it" aspect of things is simply ignorance about what children are capable of, and arguably always have been capable of. People in the US look at things like "The Hitler Youth", "Saddam's Lion Cubs", or the young children fighting with the Warlords in Africa and tend to think that it's some wierd exception due to those cultures, missing the central point that kids have always been capable of this kind of thing.
People also tend to rapidly forget that there was a time when people who lived to 30 or 40 had enjoyed a full life and lived to a ripe old age. If kids weren't capable of more than we think now, then human civilization simply would not be here.
That said, we periodically see things like this, columbine, or a case when *I* was a kid about a group of Jr. High School students who wanted to kill someone for kicks. So they convinced a kid they didn't care for to come over to the house of a girl (who didn't like him much in reality) to hang out with her alone. He was supposedly sitting by the pool, when the girl came out in a bikini and posed for him (despite the age) while two of her (male) friends came up behind him and strangled him with an electrical cord. Apparently it was a big deal since the kid (going to meet a girl) didn't tell anyone where he was going, and when the body was found nobody suspected he would have been with people he didn't get along with until much later.
It's been a while so I could have some details of that one wrong, but really when I was very young that was the story *I* remember hearing.
With better TV, Radio, and the Internet we get this kind of information globally within minutes in many cases (much faster than during the 1980s when we thought we were fast). Columbine, a kid getting stabbed over Pokemon cards, a 12 year old being worshipped as the god of death (or whatever it was) in Africa while leading his own death squads... it's always been here.
You can't blame our consumerist society, "societies" differant from our own have the same problem. Chances are if you DON'T see this stuff in other nations it's because the goverment has more control over the press than the people believe and they keep a lot of it relatively low key (and there are various reasons for doing so, some of which are fairly benevolent). You can't blame video games or TV since this kind of thing had been happening beforehand (though in many cases you might need to check old newspapers and such). If Lizzie Borden had done her thing today, chances are we'd be blaming video games.
Really, I think politics needs to be kept out of this. No matter what we do to change society, or what power we surrender to the goverment, it's STILL going to happen. The quintessential "evil child" of horror fiction has been part of the human psyche for a very long time because of such incidents. Most children are nice and innocent, but there always have been those who are differant and just do things, oftentimes without an apparently (sane) motive.
-
When it comes to other "crimes" of a differant sort, like the raping of a 4 year old girl, I don't think "the world is going to hell". Actually it's a sign of progress that such things are unusual enough where they get a reaction. Once upon a time that would have just been life.
A group of vikings or whatever would hop in a longboat, get beered up, and then go sailing down to some settlement for kicks raping, killing, and pillaging just because it was fun. A 4 year old girl in many cases would just be a few minutes amusement.
This is to say nothing of say Pirates centuries later (who used to be fairly common, as opposed to limited mostly to the third world).
Today you don't have to worry about some guy who is a noble, or maybe just the employer your family depends on to eat (say the only guy with a business in a mining town or whatever) coming up and saying "Hey, we're throwing a party tonight, and we'd really like to rape, torture, and kill your daughter as part of the entertainment. Don't worry, we'll cover the funeral expenses... thanx". When it came to nobles and royalty in some places they actually owned you for most purposes and had legal rights in support of things like this, and even taking the virginity of your wife.
With the old-school pre-union company towns ("I owe my soul to the company store...") the atrocities they committed were totally illegal, but really nobody could do anything about it. These guys paid the authoities, there was no mass communication on the current level (and nobody really cared), and even if you found someone who DID care the company would just hire a bunch of muscle from a group like Pinkertons (which is why when organized unions fought them it was a big deal).
People who whine about how horribly America is losing it, TOTALLY forget what America has been like in the past. You had guys like Dillinger and Bonnie and Clyde pretty much going whereever they wanted, and doing whatever they wanted. You had guys like Capone taking over entire cities. Later you had Biker Gangs basically taking over towns and dividing the nation up between them by club (and even today some of these territories are fairly respected by the law though it's nothing like it once was).
Right now America is in pretty bloody good shape, we just like to whine. We also tend to forget when railing about the laws and authority that such things exist for a reason. People call Hoover a cross dressing fascist for example, but in reality he did what was nessicary to deal with a lot of the problems I mention, and we largely live in safety he created, with a very nice balance.
A lot of rambling, but basically I'd also like to say that I eagerly await the day some liberal will become so detached from reality that they will try and claim that a lot of the "classic" gangsters were inspired by video game violence. Especially the younger ones.
I think giving them one more chance and killing them if they commit another crime is perfectly fair. Killing them is doing the public a favour, what use will they ever be to society, i highly doubt that kids like that willl get lots of qualification and go to uni. I have no problem with people being unintelligent as long as they try their best and do everything that they are capable of. People like these kids ruin people's lives for kicks and then people on this board say that they need rehabilitation. Well HIGNFY, it won't work. These people are shit.
I don't give a shit if it acts as a deterrent or not (I do recall seeing evidence that the death penalty isn't a deterrent anyway), a civilised society should not tie anyone to a stake and shoot them for the public to see. you really want to see that? really? a bullet-ridden corpse hanging from a plank of wood on the street? would you be able to see that and still call our society civilised?MattW456 said:
they're 10 and 11. who the fuck says they can't be rehabilitated or put on medicine? who says that the difference between right and wrong can't be built up?Epitome said:
oh, and 12 year olds drinking and having sex is nothing new.
Btw I suggest we lock them up, get them loads of meds, rehabilitation, keep them there (segregated from general prison population so they don't get any ideas) for bloody ages, etc. this might cost more and take more effort, but I would rather that, than public executions.
I don't call our society civilized, places like London, Birmingham, Manchester are hovels. (No offence to those who live there, i'm sure there are some decent people there but large areas of these cities are rife with crime)
Also i'm pretty sure if a relative of yours was beaten and sexually abused when they were young you would want to see their attackers killed rather than given shitty therapy that doesn't help in the slightest.
Also i'm pretty sure if a relative of yours was beaten and sexually abused when they were young you would want to see their attackers killed rather than given shitty therapy that doesn't help in the slightest.
don't try to tell me what I would and wouldn't thinkMattW456 said:
and I would love to see how therapy doesn't work
12 year olds drinking and having sex is fairly new, go back a few years and it was almost unheard of. And yes lock them up put them on meds, if they show improvement give them another chance, if nothing. drop them in the middle of the atlantic, cus theyre no use to anyoneMusicalFreedom said:
Just underneath the picture captioned something like "the children were attacked near this allotment" a small paragraph says they also admitted two counts of forcing a child to engage in sexual activity, so admittedly I was wrong, they committed gbh on two boys and then made at least two other kids perform sexual acts. They still deserve to fucking die.
