Is this right, or even legal?

[Chaos1228]

Im not sure what country your in, but this is appalling.

And im not sure if its illegal in america either.

BUT if the code of conduct for your school doesn't list "cleaning toilets" as a punishment, then there's no way they're allowed to do that. You should look into that.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Cant speak to the legallity of it as your in the UK, But is it right? Absofriggenloutely.

The MEs completely baffle me. Its like at every turn they are trying to eliminate responsibility, discipline, or any sort of corrective behavior.

Im sorry, but as your example points out, the normal punishments would not work on this kid. However having to clean the toilets absolutely worked on this kid cause it left him sobbing and crying for his mommy. Now, if it evokes that sort of response then what do you think the likelihood that this kid will try this again will be if he now knows that action will generate this sort of reaction.

And again I may not be in the UK but I would highly doubt it would be illegal. Its not even immoral. Kudos to your headmaster, an effective as well as logical discipline to correct the problem. We need MANY more just like you.

I'm with you on that one. Not liking the water doesn't really give you an excuse, I'm sorry.

I don't know about the law, but I think this is an effective punishment.

Yea but hours of manual labour cleaning toilets and whatnot is worth a significant more than the theft.

So? That's kinda how it works, at least in the adult world. So I'm not really seeing your point

He's not an adult, and such cannot be treated as such since he's a little kid. Your point is irrelevant.

My point was that the person was saying that punishment shouldn't ever force a person to do more than they took. That's legally silly.

Furthermore, we don't know how old the person in question is. Are they at least 16? That's, if I'm not mistaken, the age of consent in the UK. If you're able to decide to screw, you're able to act like an adult.

He cried saying he wants his mom back in a child support group, so I presume he's not 16. And also I'm somewhat sure that the punishment of a child matches the crime more than with adults, so that's a generalization on my part.

I've known college age people who've done that when under conditions like this. I wouldn't put it past him

Speaking as a teacher myself... First off, your mother sharing this information with you, and then you turning around and sharing it with the internet is immoral, a violation of her professional code of conduct, and quite possibly illegal in and of itself.

I'm not going to comment on the punishment as I don't know enough about education in England to have an informed opinion. It is not the approach I would have taken, but without actually knowing the student I'm not about to start spouting off ideas about what they 'should' have done.

I tried my hard to keep everyone anonymous, and didn't mean to harm anyones rights. I just wanted to know if this was wrong, right, illegal or legal. Also, this kid will have to do the punishment in school times, so other people are obviously going to know about it, and those people will know him much better than you lot do. I am sorry if this is breaching confidentiality, I will ask for this thread to be removed if this will come to anything.

Im going to delete the first paragraph, since I still want opinions on it but dont want anything to happen to me or my mum.

Actually, if anyone related to this issue sees this, you or your mother could get into legal trouble, if my Ethics and Law class taught me anything. I'd recommend asking the thread to be locked, if you want to avoid any potential litigation

 

[Kingsnake661]

I don't know about legality. from what i've read, you have a messed up kid, which is pittyable, and he was caught stealing, which is wrong, and was punished with cleaning tolets, which is different. I'd imagien if the reason given for not using the other punishments was "it wouldn't work", then they know that because they've tried them before? If that's the case, and this is a repeat offender and previous punishments didn't work, then esculation isn't uncalled for IMO. I'm positive the school would give him proper cleaning gear and show him how to stay clean, and thus it be reasonable safe.

It might be a bit embarressing, but punishment has to elecit some kind of negative responce in order to work. And as a kid in school, this isn't a LOT of different things they can do. IMO, it's a creative punishment, and if it works, all the better. You also much understand that punishments like this are used in an effort, or at least, should be used with the intent of teaching people to avoid behavors that'll hurt them in the long run. If he really leans that stealing is wrong from this strange punishment, and it sinks in, then it'll benefit him the rest of his life.

But if this is the kids first time and they go right to tolet cleaning... seems a bit... harsh to me. *shrug* And again, no idea if they can accually legally DO it or not.

 

[Zoe Castillo]

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[ToastiestZombie]

So a very troublesome and messed up kid had stolen a can of drink from our cafeteria. He's in foster care because his dad left him and his mother is a raging alcoholic (although sober for a few months she couldn't go back to the kid), so pretty much hes a messed up kid. His reasons for stealing the can were that he was thirsty, didn't have any money (for obvious reasons). Those are some pretty good reasons but what he did was still wrong. I'm not here to dwell on the action, i'm here to say about the punishment he was given. The school couldn't suspend him for some reason, and detention would never work on this boy. The punishment the head chose was that he had to clean the toilets for half the school say. It isn't just cleaning the sinks and what not, its cleaning all the toilets, the urine filled urinals and the clogged up sinks (clogged up with god knows what). He has to do this against his will and probably in front of passing kids and teachers. One of the things that saddens me about this kid is that punishment doesn't really affect him in any way shape or form, which basically makes this forced labor that will only worsen the child's view of the school. Sometime after he was told that was his punishment my mother said that he came into the school's support room and burst into tears, he said that all he wanted was his mum back. In my point of view that is probably directly linked to being said that you will have to do the humiliating job of cleaning someones filth.

tl:dr. Messed up kid with a bad home life steals a can of drink. Gets the punishment of cleaning the school toilets for half the school day. Later has a breakdown, crying and pleading for his mum to come back.

So escapees, what do you think of this. Can any people good in law tell me if this type of punishment is even legal in the UK?

[EDIT] Just came to me that in my school, the maximum you can pay for a drink is £1. This kid would never be able to pay that back so the school decided that £1 stolen was enough for him to do hours of labor just because he couldn't pay the school back.

[EDIT numero dos!] To people saying that he will learn that he wont do it again, he wont. My mother has worked with him for a long time and she knows that the only thing that will happen to him is that the next time he does it, he'll try harder not to get caught.

[EDIT numero tres!] Removed the bit about him not liking water since many people here are just using that to say that he deserved it, when truly that fact is very very trivial.

 

[BSCCollateral]

I don't know anyone involved in this, but from what you've said...

The little price's palette is too delicate for water, so he stole something, and then he burst into tears when his punishment was to do work any janitor would do? And you think the entitled little snot deserves sympathy?

Is that the gist of it?

 

[imperialus]

Actually, if anyone related to this issue sees this, you or your mother could get into legal trouble, if my Ethics and Law class taught me anything. I'd recommend asking the thread to be locked, if you want to avoid any potential litigation

Yes, this. I can't comment on the legality of it in England but if you were from here in Canada what you're doing is a violation of the Freedom of Information and Privacy act, and that is deadly, career ending, lawsuit starting, bad mojo. I can only assume that England has a similar law on the books.

You say that 'everyone at school' already knows the situation, but do they? All they know is that he's cleaning bathrooms. They don't know why, they don't know about his family life, they don't know he broke down crying in the support center, they don't know a lot of stuff that you do because your mother has shared private, personal information about the student with you. If anyone from your school reads the OP though though they'll be able to connect the dots, and all of a sudden all sorts of stuff that's going on in this students life is going to be out in a junior high rumor mill.

That would suck. I would strongly recommend you go beyond asking the admins to lock the post and instead have them delete the thread. It protects you, it protects your mom and it protects the student. Then you have 2 options. Either ask your mom not to share stuff like this with you in the future, or if she does do so then keep it confidential.

At the end of the day there is absolutely no way the opinions of a bunch of random internet denizens is worth your mom's career.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

No, that's a piss poor, spoiled brat reason.

Yep, this kid sounds like a spoiled brat to me.

Right, how do I get sarcasm tags again?

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Deleted the opening paragraph due to worries about breaching of confidentiality. I know that barely anyone who matters or even cares knows about the Escapist in my school, and even then they probably just lurk. But, better safe than sorry I guess.

 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Something like that definitely would not fly here in Canada.

I went to school in Canada, and they probably would have just hit me. My school had corporal punishment (the strap) until 1988, and might still (I moved away in 1988, so I don't know how long corporal punishment persisted).

Corporal punishment did a great job of discouraging getting caught breaking rules (which itself reduces the rate at which rules get broken).

 

[Belaam]

Meh. He stole. While a little absurd to press charges, legally, the school could have done so. It is possible that he went into the support room crying in an effort to get out of it. (we don't really know)

My school had a student who, on the first day of school, walked into the bathroom and just peed all over everything. He was cleaning bathrooms for a week.

I'm a little concerned about missed instructional time if he was missing lessons to do this, but having to do some cleaning in exchange for theft seems fine to me.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

The hell? Half the school day for a drink that costs £1?
I wonder how much cleaners get paid for half a days work. More than £1 at any rate.
Giving a kid who has a shit home life a job that is likely to humiliate him in front of all the other kids is just really, really fucking stupid.

That made so little sense. It was a punishment. The kid wasn't working to pay back the price of the drink, he was working as a punishment. Should a kid with a shitty life be given special treatment? Wouldn't that encourage him to do it again?

Just a question.

Would it encourage him to do it again? I don't know.

What I do know is that I had a couple of pretty shitty times in my childhood. Not as bad as this kid's, but still bad. And I also know that if someone made me do a humiliating job for what probably feels like a justified and miniscule crime I would have started resenting them pretty quickly.

I wasn't a bad kid, but being treated like shit would have made me into one.

And I also wouldn't be surprised if that kid is beginning to silently hate authority. To him, the people who took him away from his mum and the people who make his life suck harder in school might as well be lumped under 'authority figures' and teaching somebody to hate those in never going to do them any good.


I'm not saying that he should have just been allowed off with no mention of this ever again. But the situation could have been handled soooo much better than this.

 

[M920CAIN]

Sound like a modern Oliver Twist case without the happy ending... I don't believe he deserved the punishment he got.

 

[Kuroneko97]

...Hold one moment while I convert 1 pound into US Dollars.

*Elevator music*

Alright, back. approximately $1.50.

...The fuck? Unless he stole it from a person who DESPERATELY needed that soda...the fuck? It's a fucking can of soda. You can't tell the kid "You're not supposed to steal"? Should have gotten him a counselor.

Fucking educational system...

Off topic, haven't you done a similar topic? Something related to your school doing something shitty...

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

can't say anything about the UK, but in germany and the czech republic, where i spent most of my school years, it wouldn't be legal. in germany there isn't even a detention system. that's right, it's illegal to force students to stay in school for anything that isn't classes in germany. americans have a hard time believing that^^ and still behavior of german students is much better than that of american students for some reason (yes, i can say, i went to school in the u.s. for a year). so this whole punishment-system is seriously flawed somewhere.

that being said: does this guy need to be disciplined in some way? absolutely..

To be honest the social behavior of kids in Europe is much different than that of kids in the USA. I hate to say it, but here in the USA we have a social system that encourages people, both child and adult, to be complete assholes. Not everyone is like that here, but it's kind of our self centered life style that breeds it. In Germany I know that people tend to be more selfless and polite, not sure about the land of Czechs, but I'd bet it's the same.

OT: He stole, when you steal you get a fine, can't pay the fine? Well then you have to work it off with community service. That's how it works here in the State of Nevada. Was the punishment excessive? Not really he did the crime, now he has to do the time. This sort of thing is called preparing a child for the real world. Legal? I don't know but it should be. Heck I bet the Janitorial staff loves this kind of thing, it's less things they have to do.

To put it bluntly a negative physical punishment like caning, or paddling will just make him resent the system. Community service on the other hand will teach him to respect it. It also teaches him that there are consequences for bad choices, and that's an important life lesson. All schools should do this instead of physical punishment, detention, or suspension.

Also about him crying for his mom in the staff room, that sort of thing is called manipulation. He's trying to score sympathy to get out of his punishment, and you shouldn't fall for it. Even if he really was that upset he still needs to pay his debt to society, but the fact he made it a public display screams manipulation. At that point you tell him, I understand you're upset, but you still have to make it right. Getting him to accept his responsibility will probably keep him out of prison later in life. So don't feel too sorry for him, and make sure he understands he did wrong, and now he has to face the music. If you let it slide he could very easily end up in a life of crime.

 

[MegaManOfNumbers]

Well, justice is blind.... and stupid.

"justice" generally is VERY impersonal, never taking in account the persons motivations and history, this is so to prevent liars or fakers from looping around the justice system, but also causes the shitty lives of many people to be EVEN SHITTIER.

 

[viranimus]

Spoiler: Condensed

Snipped for space

How? Because there is no trauma here. Think about it. We are hearing words "inhumane" "humiliation" and "trauma" because someone proposed a kid do half a days worth of manual labor? That is trauma? How? Oh thats right because it isnt trauma. You want trauma? How about handing down a punishment that says "Oh you dont like the taste of free water? Ok, you can drink out of the toilets for a half a day" That would be trauma. Were not talking about a death camp here, were talking about a kid with a scrub brush and gloves cleaning a few toilets. Honestly the kid is STILL getting off easy.

_______________________________________________________

He's not an adult, and such cannot be treated as such since he's a little kid. Your point is irrelevant.

Actually what your missing is that being a kid It is infinitely MORE important for the punishment to be strict.

Seriously, Who here does not understand that the value of what was stolen is 100% completely irrelevant. The whole point of this is to correct an inappropriate behavior so as they wont repeat this mistake, and use this knowledge to become a better person. Either it will work, and that will be the end of it, or it wont, and no sort of corrective action would make a difference anyway.

I will point this out yet again. This punishment is proper.
Anything less than this level of punishment for this action is absolutely no different than telling the kid "what you did is perfectly acceptable behavior"

To do anything less impactful than this is insanely irresponsible. to the point that it is essentially the same thing as child abuse. Your essentially taking a kid who is already on societies edge and pushing him further. .

So ive said what I felt like saying on this. To continue is pointless. I will leave with this.

A: Spare the rod, Spoil the child. Those trying to villianize the punishment because this is "cruel" your alternative would do more harm than good

B: Some times you have to knock someone out to save their life.

 

[Yopaz]

So the punishment made him cry, well as you said yourself detention wouldn't work on him. Beating him is illegal. What he did was illegal. He is punished for it and the punishment is affecting him even though you said it didn't.

I think you need to edit your whole story because it is full of inconsistencies.

The story you're telling is tragic, but it doesn't add up to be honest. All the objective parts are OK, and I agree that the punishment is over the top. I think it's clear the kid needs help, just like most kids in his position.