"It's totally okay if the girls are hot!": Hypocrisy and The World

[mkg]

Guys don't care about hot lesbians being gay because we're straight, there's no political agenda involved, we just like watching hot women perform sex acts. Quit bitching I'm not gonna watch dudes make out and no one can make me with jabs about my political correctness.

 

[VitalSigns]

Anti-homosexuality pisses me off. What's more annoying is the people who openly flame homosexual, or bisexuals, or males who decide to push their boundaries a little and then turn around to watch lesbians with a sick grin.

It's nothing short of sheer stupidity.

The unfortunate thing is that this attitude is not just prevalent in mainstream society against gays either. More than once I've seen gay-marriage stickers and the like saying "Support Gay Marriage if both chicks are hot." How does that, in any way shape or form, genuinely support the cause? Sure one can say "Oh, it's a joke." but I bet any number of people take that attitude very seriously. They will make cat-calls and watch two women like hawks. They will campaign for lesbians because they get entertainment out of the viewing. It's in no way improved from hating homosexuality all together if you're going to divide it up into "acceptable" and "fuckin' gross and you should be beaten up."

I've confronted a number of people about their behaviour along these lines and have been laughed at for proposing that they should extend their "Oh go ahead!" attitude to non-lesbians as well. As such, I ask you Escapist. Have you seen this behaviour? Is it justified, at all?

EDIT: This is not about gay marriage rights, we've had enough of those threads. It's about cultural attitudes to the people themselves. That sticker was just an example.

Anti-Homosexuality is pathetic, if you are that concerned with what people do in there bedroom you need to get your head out of your ass. As for the stupid guy rule "LEZBIANZ ARE SOOO HAWTT". Yeah maybe some of them are but it is irrelevant to the rights and freedoms that the gay community deserves, Two girls making out at a party to get guys attentions are belittling lesbians and making it hard for them to get taken seriously, and homosexual guys just get some of the worst flak possible. Leave people alone, let them make their decisions and you make yours.

 

[Therumancer]

Well, without re-igniting previous arguements, this is all based on the assumption on the part of the OP that gays and lesbians are fundementally the same thing. Others (like me) do not agree with this.

All comments about "hot chicks only" aside, I see gay men as a dangerous problem, where I see Lesbians are being pretty harmless overall.

In general I don't see much outside of purely fantastic porn about lesbians molesting little girls. I'm sure it happens, but not that frequently. But on the other hand you run into it all the time with gay men.

I'd also point out that people being raped up the butt by gay men is so prevelant that it has become a stereotypical comment for being defeated. You also have men's fear of the prison system based on being anally raped (with various nasty jokes made about it) but no real popularized equivilent for women.

I could go on, but well... think about it some time.

I'm not going to argue the point (we've been there), whether you think I'm right or wrong, keep in mind that I am not entirely alone. There are reasons for this mentality, it's just people rarely discuss it, in part because of political correctness.

The problem with most politically correct/liberal arguements is that they are made based on assumptions which not everyone shares. This issue aside, I feel a lot of those assumptions are very naive and come from an "ivory tower" textbook perspective. Ultimatly I feel that the more you have to actually live out in the real world the more bigoted you become (against whom isn't the issue, but it will happen). A lot of people live their entire lives not having to deal with the real world, being able to be sheltered working office jobs or whatever.

God forbid you ever have to work REAL security jobs or something like that (never mind become an actual cop). That takes it beyond simply "the real world" into what goes on beyond that facade especially when your basically eavesdropping on people, or get to watch two dudes really go at it with each other verbally or on you... "no, no, tell me what you really think about us white people...".

A lot of liberals seem to think that white heterosexual males do the discriminating and can't be discriminated against. Obviously people who think that haven't dealt with many asians.

But at any rate, i'm going pretty far afield here. The point is that it can be the same with homosexuals. Many people (like me) think of gay males and lesbians as being distinct groups rather than "homosexuals" all going together in one group as the political tendency runs.


>>>----Therumancer--->

 

[MBFCPresident]

I have no opinions regarding gay marriage but I think I speak for every heterosexual man here when I say that we would rather watch two women doing the horizontal tango than two dudes. Am I wrong?

 

[PersianLlama]

same dumbasses who say you can believe what you want as long as jesus is in it

Not al religious people are like that. I am Christian but I support people and their will to love who they love but because of my religion I won't do anything against it. I won't vote for or against gay marriage. I stay neutral on those topics.

Sorry, but I don't like you until you vote "for".

At least your a step up from the people who vote "against"

Spoiler: long quote

Well, without re-igniting previous arguements, this is all based on the assumption on the part of the OP that gays and lesbians are fundementally the same thing. Others (like me) do not agree with this.

All comments about "hot chicks only" aside, I see gay men as a dangerous problem, where I see Lesbians are being pretty harmless overall.

In general I don't see much outside of purely fantastic porn about lesbians molesting little girls. I'm sure it happens, but not that frequently. But on the other hand you run into it all the time with gay men.

I'd also point out that people being raped up the butt by gay men is so prevelant that it has become a stereotypical comment for being defeated. You also have men's fear of the prison system based on being anally raped (with various nasty jokes made about it) but no real popularized equivilent for women.

I could go on, but well... think about it some time.

I'm not going to argue the point (we've been there), whether you think I'm right or wrong, keep in mind that I am not entirely alone. There are reasons for this mentality, it's just people rarely discuss it, in part because of political correctness.

The problem with most politically correct/liberal arguements is that they are made based on assumptions which not everyone shares. This issue aside, I feel a lot of those assumptions are very naive and come from an "ivory tower" textbook perspective. Ultimatly I feel that the more you have to actually live out in the real world the more bigoted you become (against whom isn't the issue, but it will happen). A lot of people live their entire lives not having to deal with the real world, being able to be sheltered working office jobs or whatever.

God forbid you ever have to work REAL security jobs or something like that (never mind become an actual cop). That takes it beyond simply "the real world" into what goes on beyond that facade especially when your basically eavesdropping on people, or get to watch two dudes really go at it with each other verbally or on you... "no, no, tell me what you really think about us white people...".

A lot of liberals seem to think that white heterosexual males do the discriminating and can't be discriminated against. Obviously people who think that haven't dealt with many asians.

But at any rate, i'm going pretty far afield here. The point is that it can be the same with homosexuals. Many people (like me) think of gay males and lesbians as being distinct groups rather than "homosexuals" all going together in one group as the political tendency runs.


>>>----Therumancer--->

Sorry sir, but homosexuals (Lesbian or gay) are still Homo sapiens.

 

[ThreeWords]

All of my male friends approve of attractive lesbians, yes.

To be fair, you cannot blame men for this. In our mind, there is nothing but positive in the notion of two girls in love (except a small shred of jealousy =P)

However, it should not go hand in hand with disapproving of gay men, because it is hypocrisy.

I don't think anyone is wrong to be anti-gay, for any good reason, (ie its against their religion), but I do disapprove of double standards. Myself, I support anyone having any kind of marriage or union, but I won't try to force other people to conform to my world view, just as they shouldn't force me

Also, one may note that the Bible says "Thou shalt not lay with man as you lay with woman" or whatever so this is an attitude that was prevalent even back then (Or else, the Hebrews were not aware of lesbianism. Which makes no sense at all.).

It also says "A woman may not lay with another woman as if she were a man, nor shall she give herself to an animal as it were a man", so they were aware of 'people of different persuasions'

 

[Bellvedere]

I'm pretty sure that no real homophobe would change their entire view on homosexuality based on the appearence on those involved...

I'm not a big fan of PDA in general. Seeing other people do it is just as bad. Seeing ugly people do it is even worse. I worked in a supermarket casual when I was at school and at least once a week I'd be serving this terrible couple that always thought the que was the best place to go feeling each other up and making out. Nice.

I think it's fine that people don't want to see homosexuals being intimate together as long as their fine with it in concept. No one should have to see other peoples PDA. I don't find the sentiment offensive at all.

Are you blaming people for what they find attractive and what they don't? Are you saying that if people watch lesbian porn they should balance it out with gay porn and heterosexual porn?

 

[CrystalShadow]

Ah The Netherlands. I know it well.

And it's a country where 'anything goes' because it has the attitude that we can tolerate anything as long as we don't have to do it ourselves.
Sure it has an upside, but don't forget it's the dutch mentality that led to South Africa's Apartheid regime.

To be fair, the white South Africans that instituted Apartheid are as related to Holland as most white Americans are to the UK.

That is, not really.

I can't imagine Holland instituting Apartheid, just like I can't see Britain suddenly deciding that having gay marriage/civil unions be illegal is a good idea (like they did in some states of the US).

Ah, well, you've got a point there. But it does originate with the same basic cultural ideas.
That's not to say one leads nessesarily to the other, but yeah. I can't particularly imagine the dutch themselves doing it either.

(although the UK can be a pretty inconsistent place when it comes to gay rights - They actually have no legal protection against discrimination here... I don't see it happening, but a shopkeeper in the UK is within the rights of the law to kick someone out of a shop for being gay.)

Meanwhile, the dutch these days are struggling with the consequences of their 'permissive' attitudes towards others because the country has been flooded by immigrants that behave quite badly, and people are starting to get sick of the old attitude of just letting them do their own thing, since the immigrants in question don't seem to have any respect for the rest of the inhabitants.

 

[CrystalShadow]

You don't see gays going around calling each-other Faggots constantly do you?
I mean that's always been an insult.

Sometimes, yeah.

Jewed? Never heard that one. Again though, being a called a jew isn't inherently an insult.

I believe it's meant to be, like, getting cheated. Yes, like gay, the word now has two meanings because of its slang use.

pussy is an insult, but somehow that's OK?
But would you then argue that calling someone a pussy (which is essentially an insult) therefore means there's something wrong with cats? (or, by the other implication, which is perhaps worse, that there's something wrong with being a woman?) - That essentially the same logic, after all...
Not a lot of consistency here, is there?

I would argue that anyone using those terms is saying exactly that. They may not be thinking it, they may not be intending it, but they ARE saying it. And the big social problem is rarely with the extremists out on the edge, attacking in every direction. The big social problem is typically the willing ignorance of the majority.

Gay is a word that was originally chosen by the people involved themselves. I guess you can call that hypocritical, but it's easier to divorce seperate uses of the same word if they have obviously different meanings.
Your implication here is basically as follows:
Some people use the phrase that's so gay to denote something that's bad.
A group of people that are attracted to their own sex, some time back decided to refer to themselves as being 'gay'.
The way the first group uses the phrase "that's so gay" means there must therefore be something wrong with the group of people that call themselves gay.

I would in fact argue drawing a connection between such disparate uses of a word causes more harm than acknowledging they have nothing to do with eachother.

See, by saying you can't use a particular insult because it devalues a certain group of people by association, you're reinforcing a connection between the insult and the group in question.

The more you emphasise that the use of "that's so gay" (and similar phrases) has anything to do with people who are gay, the more you reinforce the notion that there's something wrong with being gay.

So, clearly, we have a different outlook on this.

You view it as validating the slang usage, and by extention devaluing the group that the term refers to.
I view it as divorcing the slang from having anything at all to do with a group that happens to be reffered to by the same word.

But then, language is a funny thing at the best of times...

Fair enough. I think either argument only holds up after studied practice, however. I don't have anything to back me up in this case: no psychological studies, no research on how language effects the brain. Some of that stuff is out there and we could argue this point ad nauseum.

Regardless, I think the best thing I could possibly say is to notice the word use. Notice who who says it, when and why. And considering the heated debate surrounding it, I would suggest that you keep a defensible argument on hand regarding your own word choices.

That's true enough. But I can however give you another example that shows how awkward it can get if you draw unwarranted associations with words:

"That's one really ugly black car".

Now, by association of the way black is used in some contexts, you could say I've just made a racist remark.
However, the usage of "black" in this context has absolutely nothing to do with a racial group. And if you start drawing connections at this level, very bad things start to happen.
That's where you have to be careful with these kind of things as well, because at some point you're putting in so much effort into not offending people, that you are in fact making the situation worse.

If you define a person by a particular attribute (such as their sexual orientation, race, religion, etc), then you are to some extent reinforcing the devide between 'them' and 'us', and that is the root of most discrimination.

 

[Worsle]

Well, without re-igniting previous arguements, this is all based on the assumption on the part of the OP that gays and lesbians are fundementally the same thing. Others (like me) do not agree with this.

All comments about "hot chicks only" aside, I see gay men as a dangerous problem, where I see Lesbians are being pretty harmless overall.

In general I don't see much outside of purely fantastic porn about lesbians molesting little girls. I'm sure it happens, but not that frequently. But on the other hand you run into it all the time with gay men.

I'd also point out that people being raped up the butt by gay men is so prevelant that it has become a stereotypical comment for being defeated. You also have men's fear of the prison system based on being anally raped (with various nasty jokes made about it) but no real popularized equivilent for women.

I could go on, but well... think about it some time.

I'm not going to argue the point (we've been there), whether you think I'm right or wrong, keep in mind that I am not entirely alone. There are reasons for this mentality, it's just people rarely discuss it, in part because of political correctness.

What a load of bigoted crap and you have once again proved the idea that politicly correct is only a code for my argument is a load of unfounded and unintelligent nonsense so I have to hide it behind some buzz words. Gay men are like paedophiles? Ignoring the large number of cases where female teachers commit statuary rape (does not mater if they are hot though boys? hur hur) rape and paedophilia have nothing what so ever to do with homosexuality. They are instead all about power and control witch is a very different thing from being attracted to some one who is the same sex as you. (I could also point out that your paedophilia argument is more an argument against men as it is not just little boys by a long shot.) Also the actions of men in prison have more to do with an excess of testosterone in an environment with out any easy realise. Again it is nothing like homosexuality and hell the people who take part in it can still consider them selves straight just forced by circumstances.

I do find your ivory tower comment fun though almost takes the edge of the bigotry, and more buzz words to go with politicly correct into he nonsense pile. Not only do you seem to lack any real knowledge of the subject and even say so your self you then you also have the gall to say your arguments are based in the real world? It is hilarious and you round it off with a little casual racism, it is so perfect I have to wonder if you are a poe.

 

[Lopunny]

Personally I think both versions of Homosexuality are gross, but I have no qualms with Homosexuals. I just wish they would stop getting mad when I tell them the truth, that most "polar" cases of homosexuality (i.e. completely gay) are caused by brain malformations, wherein the gender in question will have a brain the shape of the opposite sex's.

*raises eyebrow* I hope to god that was a joke. Homosexuality/bisexuality occurs in nature too, ALOT, especially with some species of monkeys, and in some cases is built into their mating rituals, but i won't go into that...

Sooo...are all their brains malformed aswell?
Bear in mind that we've yet to actually find a cause for homosexual behavoiour, you seem to be describing transexualism there.

 

[Bendon]

Personally I think both versions of Homosexuality are gross, but I have no qualms with Homosexuals. I just wish they would stop getting mad when I tell them the truth, that most "polar" cases of homosexuality (i.e. completely gay) are caused by brain malformations, wherein the gender in question will have a brain the shape of the opposite sex's.

Actually, that's in transgendered people. Some of them still like the opposite sex too. The actual cause of homosexuality hasn't been pinned down (thankfully)

I think you might be talking about INAH 3 though, the size of which is very similar in Gay men and Straight women.

 

[RanD00M]

i really don't care if a female is a lesbian and not hot.It's her life not mine.And it is not my job to judge her just because she's a lesbian and not hot.

And even more personally i think that the word hot is a little lazy.If i find any interest in a woman that i am talking to i say beautiful.It has more meaning and is more elegant.

 

[CrystalShadow]

That's true enough. But I can however give you another example that shows how awkward it can get if you draw unwarranted associations with words:

"That's one really ugly black car".

Now, by association of the way black is used in some contexts, you could say I've just made a racist remark.

Then you have to ask yourself a question about what is and is not acceptable. I've heard the argument made that the color black typically has negative connotations. It's often associated with bad luck and/or evil. There's really no objective way, in this case, to determine whether this is a loose conspiracy of like-minded individuals over a long period of time, or ridiculous paranoia.

But one key difference when we're talking about homosexuality is the history of the term "gay". When did this become a synonym for "bad", why, and do you support that decision?

If you define a person by a particular attribute (such as their sexual orientation, race, religion, etc), then you are to some extent reinforcing the devide between 'them' and 'us', and that is the root of most discrimination.

Here, I will have to disagree with you. There has been a movement over the past 15 - 20 years in America towards the ideal of a post-racial society. This fantasy has extended to post-gender and post-sexual orientation philosophies as well.

The problem is that by not acknowledging what separates someone else from me, I am denying their individuality. Moreover, if we begin to let this effect policy decisions then we lose whatever guard we may have had against legitimate racism. For example, if in LA county police make drug-related arrests of minority groups 20% more often than whites, what basis do we have for judging this in a post-racial context? Is this racism? Is it not? What are the underlying causes for this behavior: both the perceived increase in drug use and the definite increase in getting caught?

I don't know if this applies to your above statement or not, but it seems to me that we are too eager now to claim "mission accomplished" when it comes to these issues. Tolerance has been the woeful norm, influencing dysfunctional policies like DADT in the military, and serving as an unfortunate filler for understanding, education, and respect.

Let me clarify my meaning here, because it's getting a little confused. Refusing to acknowledge any difference between people is ultimately pretty silly. (you can see why when you consider that the ability to 'discriminate' is what makes us intelligent. - If you can't draw a distinction between a tree and a car... Well that's not good.)

Where things truly start to become problematic is when you make sweeping generalisationsabout a group based on a single attribute.
Firstly you are emphasising that one attribute (eg skin colour) at the expense of everything else. Sure, it's different and denying that isn't very clever.
BUT, let's take some of the logical fallacies that relate to discriminatory behaviour:
Top of the list: X has attribute y, and X is a type of Z, therefore ALL Z have attribute y.
Said in a less abstract sense,
This car has 4 doors, therefore ALL cars have 4 doors.

Or, a particular gay man I met was really annoying, therefore all gays must be annoying.

Sweeping generalisations that first of all require that you define an entire group by a single arbitrary feature they have in common, and then extrapolate the behaviour of the entire group from a single example.

In a way, this also relates back to what I've been saying about words. Drawing unwarranted associations, and taking a particular usage of a word to imply more than it actually does.
It's natural human psychology, but that unfortunately means we have to struggle all the more NOT to let ourselves do it where it isn't warranted.

The problem lies not in making a distinction between one group of people and another as such, the real problem lies in the assumptions you make about people based on whatever single characteristic you're focusing on at the time.

Eg.
All gays are...
All black people are...
All women are...
All men are...
etc.

To be able to do this, you first have to seperate people into such groups.
So what I was really getting at wasn't so much that you should ignore such things as sexual orientation, race, and so on, but that you shouldn't go around making assumptions about people because of these characteristics.

 

[Agent Larkin]

I fully support gay relationships regardless of gender or aesthetic values. I know a few people who are gay and lesbian and quite frankly I dont think any one should deny them their rights if there ugly.

 

[Kiefer13]

I fully support gay relationships regardless of gender or aesthetic values.

I havn't read the whole thread, but this basically sums up everything I was going to say anyway.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

I don't really see why it should matter if the lesbians are hot. If you're male, they're not going to be interested in you, and I'd imagine the vast majority of lesbians aren't porn stars. No matter how good looking they are, you're not going to get to watch.

Do whatever you want, so long as it's consensual and with responsible adult persons. (Hey, new acronym: CRAP. All your sex should be CRAP.)