Lauren Southern speaks to Feminists at "SlutWalk".

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Namehere

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Secondhand Revenant said:
Namehere said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
FogHornG36 said:
Skatologist said:
FogHornG36 said:
Adam Jensen said:
1. That was a weird cut at the end. One that looked as though the black woman was going to continue to talk.

2.You do realize what that black woman could have meant, right? Withdrawing consent from sex while having it? Or even just withdrawing consent prior to the act while initially saying "yes"?
NOOOOOO You don't get to reinterpret what she said to make you feel better, the black chick was saying, isn't it ironic that you are not letting them take back consent after the fact?: when talking about being on camera, The irony is based on the feminist idea that woman should be able to take bake consent after sex.

It doesn't work your way because the filming is already done.
I think it's terrible you don't think women can take back consent during sex. It was still being filmed. Also it wasn't shown to anyone yet. So not a past event! Really, you shouldn't support not being able to stop giving consent.
If that was the issue a simple statement of: 'No further comment' and then walking away normally does the trick. I was under the impression the interview was already recorded and they didn't want it aired. That is an entirely different matter.
... is this on purpose or did you not use read the past page?

I'm displeased with his absurd insistence on comparing it to removing consent after sex, suggesting that it is what she meant, and his lie that it is a feminist idea.
I didn't read all of that argument. I just wanted to know if I was correct in my interpretation that the interview was already consented to and recorded, at which point someone asked if they would not utilize its footage?

As for whether or not ANYTHING is a FEMINIST idea, I have no comment. Every time someone says something is or isn't feminism a hoard of this or that or other types comes out and denounces it, then begin fight among themselves. I wouldn't bother myself with it. I will say that I have heard these arguments before, along with men can't be raped, and god knows how many other absurdities. Best thing to do to my mind is ignore them.

I wouldn't be bothered to interpret what the woman who requested the interview footage not be used was attempting to say, and I wouldn't advise anyone else be bothered either.

It is the journalism aspect that I found curious and... frankly not wholly unexpectedly depressingly poorly managed. One does not cover an event as an impartial conveyor of information whilst simultaneously hosting a counter event. That was without question unprofessional.

I will lend you this bit of advice though, from Nero Wolfe - actually I think it was Archie who said it: 'The best way to get the idea someone's guilty out of your mind is to find another suspect.' Put another way, if that wasn't what the woman meant, it might help to make a suggestion as to what she did mean, and help ease the overburdened minds you're dealing with. Assuming you have a better interpretation? As I said, I wouldn't bother interpreting one way or the other. The whole discussion was juvenile.
 

Ten Foot Bunny

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There are myriad reasons why rape is under-reported, all of which deserve to be addressed on their own merits (or demerits if you please). As such, the notion of "rape culture" is probably the most disingenuous over-simplification of these issues ever concocted. All it does is dehumanize well-intentioned and/or uninformed people who don't wage a personal crusade against those very real problems on a daily basis. It doesn't mean those people don't care, it just means that their lives are focused on other issues.

Case in point: I'm a feminist who DOES stay informed on the insufficient public resources for rape victims both female AND male, but I'm also plagued with bipolar disorder, anorexia relapses, and what's clinically termed double depression. Mental health advocacy is my primary social concern, so I'd be insulted if anyone accused me of perpetuating this so-called rape culture because I'm not publicly demonizing rape with every exhale.

One last, vaguely related thought - if you have to rip up someone's sign, gesture lewdly at them, or physically attack another person to "defend" your stance, then your stance is most likely built on a foundation of bullshit.
 

Charli

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mad825 said:
I find it funny when feminist turn against their own kind

...Errr... I think you're confusing what a feminist is.

But I feel i'm engaging with a wall here, so as you were...

The first page already did a bang up job of outlining all that's wrong here. Shitty journalism at it's best.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

From your first post it was pretty clear you missed the entire point. If it hadn't missed by so many miles as each subsequent reply did I'd have answered more. I don't care for posts that show no effort in telling what the conversation was about. The past just makes it easier to confirm the initial judgement

Hint: it was about his stupid comparison
Oh, so it was about exactly what it looked like, you had me worried that your argument wasn't what it looked like. First off, it's not his comparison, it was the woman's comparison from the video. Fog is saying the recording has already been done, it's after the fact. You were saying that it was ongoing since the video hadn't been published yet. I'm agreeing with Fog, the recording was already done, you don't get to just withdraw the consent you gave.
Yes she totally clearly meant you can take back consent after sex too.

Grind that antifeminism axe harder
Notice I'm not commenting on sex. Just pointing out it was her comparison and agreeing that Lauren doesn't have to cut the interview if she doesn't want to. But keep projecting your feminism axe grinding harder.
Notice that I am commenting on fog's comparison in regards to sex. How the fuck do you not notice that from the start?

I never said she had to cut it. I am taking issue with him saying it is like withdrawing consent after sex. It is not. It's just that unlike sex they don't have to listen here. That does not make his sex comparison, the only fucking issue I was dealing with, actually any good
And you're making your point in the context of the film interview. If we're talking past each other, we're talking past each other. But it looks like you're saying that since the film hadn't been published yet, the act was still ongoing (thus linking it to withdrawing consent during sex). I was just saying that the interview was done, they could publish it at their discretion.
It is aggravating I actually have to explain this with everything viewable in this thread...

He is denying that she was intending the comparison to be the same as removing consent during sex. He insists on it being the 'feminist' idea of removing consent after sex (something he made up). I am saying that it is pretty clearly possible to interpret her comparison in a much more sensible way.

This never had anything to do with whether she could or could not publish the damn content. I never said there was a reason she could not. You have been imagining motives on my behalf that never existed
But you were making your point within the context of publishing the video. If that's not what you're arguing, then your comparison you made earlier on doesn't work.
Yes, I was pointing out it was not the same as removing consent after sex since it can still be stopped . That is it. You do get that is not saying that it is valid to compare consent in regards to sex with consent in regards to a video, yes? You seem stuck on the idea that I was somehow commenting on whether they could publish it or not.
Secondhand Revenant said:
FogHornG36 said:
Skatologist said:
FogHornG36 said:
Adam Jensen said:
1. That was a weird cut at the end. One that looked as though the black woman was going to continue to talk.

2.You do realize what that black woman could have meant, right? Withdrawing consent from sex while having it? Or even just withdrawing consent prior to the act while initially saying "yes"?
NOOOOOO You don't get to reinterpret what she said to make you feel better, the black chick was saying, isn't it ironic that you are not letting them take back consent after the fact?: when talking about being on camera, The irony is based on the feminist idea that woman should be able to take bake consent after sex.

It doesn't work your way because the filming is already done.
I think it's terrible you don't think women can take back consent during sex. It was still being filmed. Also it wasn't shown to anyone yet. So not a past event! Really, you shouldn't support not being able to stop giving consent.
If that's what you were saying, you weren't at all clear on it.
Do you really not catch the sarcasm in the accusation from the very start? And somehow miss the mention of sex?

The middle bit was establishing that it was not the same as removing consent after as it was not a past event, unlike removing consent after sex would be.

And do you not even bother to read his post? Reinterpret what she said and all that? Clearly about whether the video can be used. Or look at what Skatologist said with 2. Does it look like anyone cares about the interview so much as the stupid comparison to withdrawing consent after sex is over?
If someone was sarcastic I blame Internet. Otherwise I'm not seeing any problems with what I'm saying or where this conversation flowed.
Well aside from you arguing against points I didn't make, like whether she would be allowed or should post the footage, absolutely nothing.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Namehere said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
Namehere said:
Secondhand Revenant said:
FogHornG36 said:
Skatologist said:
FogHornG36 said:
Adam Jensen said:
1. That was a weird cut at the end. One that looked as though the black woman was going to continue to talk.

2.You do realize what that black woman could have meant, right? Withdrawing consent from sex while having it? Or even just withdrawing consent prior to the act while initially saying "yes"?
NOOOOOO You don't get to reinterpret what she said to make you feel better, the black chick was saying, isn't it ironic that you are not letting them take back consent after the fact?: when talking about being on camera, The irony is based on the feminist idea that woman should be able to take bake consent after sex.

It doesn't work your way because the filming is already done.
I think it's terrible you don't think women can take back consent during sex. It was still being filmed. Also it wasn't shown to anyone yet. So not a past event! Really, you shouldn't support not being able to stop giving consent.
If that was the issue a simple statement of: 'No further comment' and then walking away normally does the trick. I was under the impression the interview was already recorded and they didn't want it aired. That is an entirely different matter.
... is this on purpose or did you not use read the past page?

I'm displeased with his absurd insistence on comparing it to removing consent after sex, suggesting that it is what she meant, and his lie that it is a feminist idea.
I didn't read all of that argument. I just wanted to know if I was correct in my interpretation that the interview was already consented to and recorded, at which point someone asked if they would not utilize its footage?

As for whether or not ANYTHING is a FEMINIST idea, I have no comment. Every time someone says something is or isn't feminism a hoard of this or that or other types comes out and denounces it, then begin fight among themselves. I wouldn't bother myself with it. I will say that I have heard these arguments before, along with men can't be raped, and god knows how many other absurdities. Best thing to do to my mind is ignore them.

I wouldn't be bothered to interpret what the woman who requested the interview footage not be used was attempting to say, and I wouldn't advise anyone else be bothered either.

It is the journalism aspect that I found curious and... frankly not wholly unexpectedly depressingly poorly managed. One does not cover an event as an impartial conveyor of information whilst simultaneously hosting a counter event. That was without question unprofessional.

I will lend you this bit of advice though, from Nero Wolfe - actually I think it was Archie who said it: 'The best way to get the idea someone's guilty out of your mind is to find another suspect.' Put another way, if that wasn't what the woman meant, it might help to make a suggestion as to what she did mean, and help ease the overburdened minds you're dealing with. Assuming you have a better interpretation? As I said, I wouldn't bother interpreting one way or the other. The whole discussion was juvenile.
My first post was replying to him emphatically refusing to consider someone else's less absurd interpetation. And that's all I really cared about.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Secondhand Revenant said:
snip

Well aside from you arguing against points I didn't make, like whether she would be allowed or should post the footage, absolutely nothing.
Alright then, let this show that proper communication can solve a lot of problems!
 

Chris Moses

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Here is my problem with Lauren's premise: No, rape culture does not exist everywhere in our society, but there are groups and institutions where rape culture is very prevalent.

Regrettably, I have not had a chance to talk to a hardcore feminist about this subject. As touchy as they can be, maybe they wouldn't like my idea's anymore than Lauren's.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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Lauren is terribly ignorant and sadly too arrogant to actually understand how this works in reality in western society. It is naive and gullible to think that most rapist are actually prosecuted. Most rapes are never reported and most rapes that are reported are never prosecuted. I was raped, my sister was raped, my best friend was raped, my grandmother was raped all by different men, only 1 of those rapist were prosecuted, and had raped many children before that ever happened. Most people do not understand that it is isn't some " scary rapist bad guy" who does these things, it is friends, brothers, uncles, fathers, teachers, coworkers and other people we are surrounded by every day. Rapist are a part of our lives, families and social circles. It is much more complicated than "report rapist rapist goes to jail". It is far more worse in this society to report a rape than it is to just try to forget about it and move on. You have to be willing to let them ruin your life and become " rape girl" in order to prosecute them and for most, allowing a rapist to not only take their body, but ruin their life as well is simply not worth being the " good guy" that stops the rapist. No one wants to " be the hero" because it isn't as peachy keen as people tend to think it is. Her trivialization of how difficult it is for people to report rapes and how hard it is to get those rapes prosecuted only goes to show her lack of actual understanding on the subject. Most want to forget about it happening and try to move on with their lives, not be forced to relive it over and over again and be publicly ridiculed and forced to deal with threats from the rapists family and friends. The reality of our current society is chances are if you are actually raped, you will be branded as either " someone who asked for it to happen to you" or a liar regardless of the actual facts. The first thing that happens when a girl tells she is raped, is they ask or think: " what did you do to cause this?" "Was it an actual rape or did you want it?" " maybe the guy just thought you wanted it due to how you were behaving." the fact that these and equally wrong ideas are what comes to mind immediately when someone hears of a rape is part of why, yes the West is still a rape culture. When someone says " my wallet was stolen" , the first things that come to mind are " did you call your credit card company?" where were you at?" ( so I can be careful when I am there), and "did you call the police?", not immediately start to defend the thief with your questions and thoughts. The biggest problem with even trying to tell anyone you were raped is " will they even believe me if I tell them?"

The man who raped me as a child was wealthy, athletic, attractive and well liked by the community. I was just a kid who was scared to even talk about it and just wanted it to go away. He raped more girls after me, he was not prosecuted for the first 2 that reported, and it was not until another girl reported much later was he finally charged because they not only had witnesses, they were able to find his films. IF the rapist is not stupid enough to have films and witnesses, chances are no one even believes it happens even when girls do turn these guys in.

Most rapist do not ever get prosecuted, and those who do it is after they have raped many times. Even at my school, the rapist teacher had raped 142-144 boys before he was prosecuted. Much of the time people tend to defend the rapist rather than the victims allowing it to continue.
 

carnex

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Lil devils x said:
Lauren is terribly ignorant and sadly too arrogant to actually understand how this works in reality in western society. It is naive and gullible to think that most rapist are actually prosecuted. Most rapes are never reported and most rapes that are reported are never prosecuted. I was raped, my sister was raped, my best friend was raped, my grandmother was raped all by different men, only 1 of those rapist were prosecuted, and had raped many children before that ever happened. Most people do not understand that it is isn't some " scary rapist bad guy" who does these things, it is friends, brothers, uncles, fathers, teachers, coworkers and other people we are surrounded by every day. Rapist are a part of our lives, families and social circles. It is much more complicated than "report rapist rapist goes to jail". It is far more worse in this society to report a rape than it is to just try to forget about it and move on. You have to be willing to let them ruin your life and become " rape girl" in order to prosecute them and for most, allowing a rapist to not only take their body, but ruin their life as well is simply not worth being the " good guy" that stops the rapist. No one wants to " be the hero" because it isn't as peachy keen as people tend to think it is. Her trivialization of how difficult it is for people to report rapes and how hard it is to get those rapes prosecuted only goes to show her lack of actual understanding on the subject. Most want to forget about it happening and try to move on with their lives, not be forced to relive it over and over again and be publicly ridiculed and forced to deal with threats from the rapists family and friends. The reality of our current society is chances are if you are actually raped, you will be branded as either " someone who asked for it to happen to you" or a liar regardless of the actual facts. The first thing that happens when a girl tells she is raped, is they ask or think: " what did you do to cause this?" "Was it an actual rape or did you want it?" " maybe the guy just thought you wanted it due to how you were behaving." the fact that these and equally wrong ideas are what comes to mind immediately when someone hears of a rape is part of why, yes the West is still a rape culture. When someone says " my wallet was stolen" , the first things that come to mind are " did you call your credit card company?" where were you at?" ( so I can be careful when I am there), and "did you call the police?", not immediately start to defend the thief with your questions and thoughts. The biggest problem with even trying to tell anyone you were raped is " will they even believe me if I tell them?"

The man who raped me as a child was wealthy, athletic, attractive and well liked by the community. I was just a kid who was scared to even talk about it and just wanted it to go away. He raped more girls after me, he was not prosecuted for the first 2 that reported, and it was not until another girl reported much later was he finally charged because they not only had witnesses, they were able to find his films. IF the rapist is not stupid enough to have films and witnesses, chances are no one even believes it happens even when girls do turn these guys in.

Most rapist do not ever get prosecuted, and those who do it is after they have raped many times. Even at my school, the rapist teacher had raped 142-144 boys before he was prosecuted. Much of the time people tend to defend the rapist rather than the victims allowing it to continue.
Reality is, rape is one hell of a mess of a problem. It's one of the hardest crimes to prosecute, if not THE hardest mostly because in most cases it comes to word against word. And, idealisticly, first priority of justice system is to protect inocent not to punish guilty.

Rape is attack on something humans, in vast majority of cases, hold dearer than health and limb and quite often even life. And that's both due our internal bilogical drive and social conditioning. Coming out with it is, for most, sacrifice by giving up on part of yourself, making it no longer yours but propery of public and held in THEIR controll.

As you mentioned most rapes are conducted by people victim either trusts, loves, adores or idealizes (or any mixture of the mentioned). That makes it even worse emotionaly since it creates deep and strong emotional conflict in person.

When one lays such a heavy accusation on a person that doesn't have established pattern of problematic behavior, most people don't tend to look at that person as guilty first EXCEPT in cases of rape. But even that, given that even accuations of rape often significantly change lives of accused, and rape conviction is social death sentence, people are rightfully hesitant to take it at the face value.

Most criminals are not caught because of their first criminal act, with murder being closest to that ideal if I remember correctly. Rape is no different. Sad but true.

And, let's not forget that victims of rape (at least Female ones) in western world get legal, health, psyclogogical, moral and any other imaginable support by society. Both through goverment and through direct donations and actions of members of society.

Vast majority of humans doesn't live in "rape culture". If we did, there wouldn't be so much effort to both prevent rapes and to help victims (well, at least female).
 

Thaluikhain

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carnex said:
and rape conviction is social death sentence,
In theory. Tyson, Polanski, the Steubenville rapists come to mind. Alongside innumerable others I can't remember. There's always some reason why any given individual rapist doesn't count.

carnex said:
And, let's not forget that victims of rape (at least Female ones) in western world get legal, health, psyclogogical, moral and any other imaginable support by society. Both through goverment and through direct donations and actions of members of society.
Again, in theory.

As Lil devils x touched on, the theory of how this works is very far from how it works in reality. In no small part because the idea of rape is often very narrow, and most incidents don't fit into it, meaning they somehow weren't really rape.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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carnex said:
Lil devils x said:
Lauren is terribly ignorant and sadly too arrogant to actually understand how this works in reality in western society. It is naive and gullible to think that most rapist are actually prosecuted. Most rapes are never reported and most rapes that are reported are never prosecuted. I was raped, my sister was raped, my best friend was raped, my grandmother was raped all by different men, only 1 of those rapist were prosecuted, and had raped many children before that ever happened. Most people do not understand that it is isn't some " scary rapist bad guy" who does these things, it is friends, brothers, uncles, fathers, teachers, coworkers and other people we are surrounded by every day. Rapist are a part of our lives, families and social circles. It is much more complicated than "report rapist rapist goes to jail". It is far more worse in this society to report a rape than it is to just try to forget about it and move on. You have to be willing to let them ruin your life and become " rape girl" in order to prosecute them and for most, allowing a rapist to not only take their body, but ruin their life as well is simply not worth being the " good guy" that stops the rapist. No one wants to " be the hero" because it isn't as peachy keen as people tend to think it is. Her trivialization of how difficult it is for people to report rapes and how hard it is to get those rapes prosecuted only goes to show her lack of actual understanding on the subject. Most want to forget about it happening and try to move on with their lives, not be forced to relive it over and over again and be publicly ridiculed and forced to deal with threats from the rapists family and friends. The reality of our current society is chances are if you are actually raped, you will be branded as either " someone who asked for it to happen to you" or a liar regardless of the actual facts. The first thing that happens when a girl tells she is raped, is they ask or think: " what did you do to cause this?" "Was it an actual rape or did you want it?" " maybe the guy just thought you wanted it due to how you were behaving." the fact that these and equally wrong ideas are what comes to mind immediately when someone hears of a rape is part of why, yes the West is still a rape culture. When someone says " my wallet was stolen" , the first things that come to mind are " did you call your credit card company?" where were you at?" ( so I can be careful when I am there), and "did you call the police?", not immediately start to defend the thief with your questions and thoughts. The biggest problem with even trying to tell anyone you were raped is " will they even believe me if I tell them?"

The man who raped me as a child was wealthy, athletic, attractive and well liked by the community. I was just a kid who was scared to even talk about it and just wanted it to go away. He raped more girls after me, he was not prosecuted for the first 2 that reported, and it was not until another girl reported much later was he finally charged because they not only had witnesses, they were able to find his films. IF the rapist is not stupid enough to have films and witnesses, chances are no one even believes it happens even when girls do turn these guys in.

Most rapist do not ever get prosecuted, and those who do it is after they have raped many times. Even at my school, the rapist teacher had raped 142-144 boys before he was prosecuted. Much of the time people tend to defend the rapist rather than the victims allowing it to continue.
Wow, what a pure one sided view. More importantly, what a setup to make it unsolvable.

Reality is, rape is one hell of a mess of a problem. It's one of the hardest crimes to prosecute, if not THE hardest mostly because in most cases it comes to word against word. And, idealisticly, first priority of justice system is to protect inocent not to punish guilty.

Rape is attack on something humans, in vast majority of cases, hold dearer than health and limb and quite often even life. And that's both due our internal bilogical drive and social conditioning. Coming out with it is, for most, sacrifice by giving up on part of yourself, making it no longer yours but propery of public and held in THEIR controll.

As you mentioned most rapes are conducted by people victim either trusts, loves, adores or idealizes (or any mixture of the mentioned). That makes it even worse emotionaly since it creates deep and strong emotional conflict in person.

When one lays such a heavy accusation on a person that doesn't have established pattern of problematic behavior, most people don't tend to look at that person as guilty first EXCEPT in cases of rape. But even that, given that even accuations of rape often significantly change lives of accused, and rape conviction is social death sentence, people are rightfully hesitant to take it at the face value.

Most criminals are not caught because of their first criminal act, with murder being closest to that ideal if I remember correctly. Rape is no different. Sad but true.

And, let's not forget that victims of rape (at least Female ones) in western world get legal, health, psyclogogical, moral and any other imaginable support by society. Both through goverment and through direct donations and actions of members of society.

Vast majority of humans doesn't live in "rape culture". If we did, there wouldn't be so much effort to both prevent rapes and to help victims (well, at least female).
You are mistaken, the support is greatly lacking in comparison to the actual problem, through both government funding and through social support. In the west, we still have terrible shortages in funding to the extreme that it is even preventing the rape kits to ever be tested to be able to prosecute the rapists that are reported. For example:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/23/how-the-u-s-ended-up-with-400-000-untested-rape-kits.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/17/college-rape-prosecutors-press-charges_n_5500432.html
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/20/rape-crisis-centres-boris-johnson-funding
http://www.straight.com/news/453481/lack-funds-bc-rape-crisis-centres-decried-vancouver-advocate
It still exists in western society that victim blaming is still happening not only in communities but in courts as well, and not even children are exempt from this:
People acted shocked when a bus driver blames a woman for being raped on a bus in India, but where is the outrage when an 11 year old child raped by 21 males is blamed by a lawyer in court?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/28/gang-rape-victim-jared-len-cruse_n_2205190.html
Not only was that child treated like that in court, they had a town meeting blaming the child because they didn't want their boys to go to jail.

Or how about when a child is raped by her teacher and the judge tries to blame the kid and give the rapist 30 days in jail and then given awards after?

http://www.businessinsider.com/judge-who-blamed-14-year-old-girl-for-being-raped-by-teacher-to-receive-lifetime-achievement-award-2015-4
When we have victim blaming in the courts, police refusing to even test rape kits because they have no plans to even attempt to prosecute and guys actually getting together in groups to do these things like it is some kind of event, we still very much have issues in this society that really need to be addressed.

What kind of culture has hundreds watch a gang rape and do nothing to stop it?
http://www.al.com/news/beaches/index.ssf/2015/04/sheriff_hundreds_watched_gang.html
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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thaluikhain said:
carnex said:
and rape conviction is social death sentence,
In theory. Tyson, Polanski, the Steubenville rapists come to mind. Alongside innumerable others I can't remember. There's always some reason why any given individual rapist doesn't count.

carnex said:
And, let's not forget that victims of rape (at least Female ones) in western world get legal, health, psyclogogical, moral and any other imaginable support by society. Both through goverment and through direct donations and actions of members of society.
Again, in theory.

As Lil devils x touched on, the theory of how this works is very far from how it works in reality. In no small part because the idea of rape is often very narrow, and most incidents don't fit into it, meaning they somehow weren't really rape.
The reality is, instead of support to recover from being raped, they are more often blamed for allowing it to happen to them.
http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110816/NEWS12/110816008/Lawsuit-filed-against-Republic-School-District-over-rape-claim
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/a-seven-year-search-for-justice/2015/03/12/b1cccb30-abe9-11e4-abe8-e1ef60ca26de_story.html
http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/513829/11-year-old_girl_horrifically_gang-raped%3B_new_york_times_article_blames_the_victim
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/mar/03/professionals-blamed-oxfordshire-girls-for-their-sexual-abuse-report-finds
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/12/13-year-old-s-rape-case-dismissed-because-her-body-is-well-developed.html
http://www.shakesville.com/2007/06/judge-blames-10-year-old-victim-for-her.html
 

Thaluikhain

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Lil devils x said:
People acted shocked when a bus driver blames a woman for being raped on a bus in India, but where is the outrage when an 11 year old child raped by 21 males is blamed by a lawyer in court?
This is particularly telling, as while the outrage over the rape in India was going on, there was a gang rape in a US high school that was being ignored at the same time.

Lil devils x said:
The reality is, instead of support to recover from being raped, they are more often blamed for allowing it to happen to them.
Exactly. Every single time, it seems, excepting when it's dismissed because "sometimes women lie about being raped" or whatever.
 

Gorrath

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Ten Foot Bunny said:
There are myriad reasons why rape is under-reported, all of which deserve to be addressed on their own merits (or demerits if you please). As such, the notion of "rape culture" is probably the most disingenuous over-simplification of these issues ever concocted. All it does is dehumanize well-intentioned and/or uninformed people who don't wage a personal crusade against those very real problems on a daily basis. It doesn't mean those people don't care, it just means that their lives are focused on other issues.

Case in point: I'm a feminist who DOES stay informed on the insufficient public resources for rape victims both female AND male, but I'm also plagued with bipolar disorder, anorexia relapses, and what's clinically termed double depression. Mental health advocacy is my primary social concern, so I'd be insulted if anyone accused me of perpetuating this so-called rape culture because I'm not publicly demonizing rape with every exhale.

One last, vaguely related thought - if you have to rip up someone's sign, gesture lewdly at them, or physically attack another person to "defend" your stance, then your stance is most likely built on a foundation of bullshit.
I quite agree with a lot of what you say here. A lot of the academic study of feminism with all of its nuances is lost when people latch onto buzzwords and turn scalpels into hammers. Terms like "patriarchy," "rape culture," and even "feminist" are interpreted as whatever the user wants to interpret them as. I think that, on the one hand, a study of how culture affects the way individuals treat rape is quite useful. However, as you rightly point out, instead we get a nebulous term that is used like a bludgeon to attack anyone or any idea that they think "enables rape." This could include, as you say, anyone who merely isn't focused enough on the issue, no matter their reasons. I've been accused of defending rape culture myself simply because I pointed out how bad statistic-gathering about rape often is or pointing out how sexist our cultural treatment of male and female rape victims tends to be, even on the progressive/liberal side of the issue.

Even when on solid ground people often leap to tactics that undermine their own position. I have argued a thousand times that lying or making an ass of oneself does nothing to advance any position. Lies will be discovered and actions will be interpreted in the worst possible light by those who stand against you. The interviewer in the video is doing some very disingenuous reporting and some of the people featured are merely helping her by acting like angry children. Civility and rationality be damned; we have history on our side!

On a personal note, I hope your mental health advocacy goes well. Tecum et tibi sum! I am with you and for you!
 

Namehere

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Once again, for the cheap seats: Rapist are not seen as upholding the social values of the western world. Whatever other issues we have - like deciding we'd really rather like the rapist then their victim, which is an issue - don't suggest a culture of rape or rape acceptance. They suggest the need to place blame and the inability to face reality. There for, when we can not or will not accept that person 'a' is a rapist, that must mean its all the victims fault. This plays out time and again. This is not however rape culture, this is an ugly side of human nature.

Rape culture, near as I can tell, would be using shared morality to justify rape. We do a lot in the west, that isn't something we do. Rapists are not seen as morally correct. In certain parts of the world... by and large they are. Like places where if your raped you're assumed to have wanted it, which is premarital sex which is criminal in those places. After all if you didn't want it, you'd have made enough noise to attract the attention of others who would presumably intercede. Except these laws are now over a generation old and these savages enjoy going around and raping people with out consequence, so... don't know cause don't want to know. This is rape culture. This is where a complaint of rape leads to the rapist receiving nothing in terms of punishment - and more importantly control - and the victim is charged with a separate offense, sometimes capitol in nature. This certainly doesn't seem to happen, never mind regularly, in western countries.

Is the system perfect? I think we can all agree our legal systems in the west, regardless of which country, aren't perfect. I think we can all agree there is massive room for improvement in the handling of rape. What is surprising is that we can't all agree that making outlandish statements is as detrimental in the case of confronting issues legal and social with rape, as it is in terms of combating drug use. Rape culture is right up there with Refer Madness. It does NOTHING to advance the discussion on viable means that might be put in place to further prevent and manage cases of rape.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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Namehere said:
Once again, for the cheap seats: Rapist are not seen as upholding the social values of the western world. Whatever other issues we have - like deciding we'd really rather like the rapist then their victim, which is an issue - don't suggest a culture of rape or rape acceptance. They suggest the need to place blame and the inability to face reality. There for, when we can not or will not accept that person 'a' is a rapist, that must mean its all the victims fault. This plays out time and again. This is not however rape culture, this is an ugly side of human nature.

Rape culture, near as I can tell, would be using shared morality to justify rape. We do a lot in the west, that isn't something we do. Rapists are not seen as morally correct. In certain parts of the world... by and large they are. Like places where if your raped you're assumed to have wanted it, which is premarital sex which is criminal in those places. After all if you didn't want it, you'd have made enough noise to attract the attention of others who would presumably intercede. Except these laws are now over a generation old and these savages enjoy going around and raping people with out consequence, so... don't know cause don't want to know. This is rape culture. This is where a complaint of rape leads to the rapist receiving nothing in terms of punishment - and more importantly control - and the victim is charged with a separate offense, sometimes capitol in nature. This certainly doesn't seem to happen, never mind regularly, in western countries.

Is the system perfect? I think we can all agree our legal systems in the west, regardless of which country, aren't perfect. I think we can all agree there is massive room for improvement in the handling of rape. What is surprising is that we can't all agree that making outlandish statements is as detrimental in the case of confronting issues legal and social with rape, as it is in terms of combating drug use. Rape culture is right up there with Refer Madness. It does NOTHING to advance the discussion on viable means that might be put in place to further prevent and manage cases of rape.
That is just creating your own definition rather than acknowledge what " rape culture" actually is.
"What is the ?Rape Culture??
Rape Culture is an environment in which rape is prevalent and in which sexual violence against women is normalized and excused in the media and popular culture. Rape culture is perpetuated through the use of misogynistic language, the objectification of women?s bodies, and the glamorization of sexual violence, thereby creating a society that disregards women?s rights and safety.

Rape Culture affects every woman. The rape of one woman is a degradation, terror, and limitation to all women. Most women and girls limit their behavior because of the existence of rape. Most women and girls live in fear of rape. Men, in general, do not. That?s how rape functions as a powerful means by which the whole female population is held in a subordinate position to the whole male population, even though many men don?t rape, and many women are never victims of rape. This cycle of fear is the legacy of Rape Culture.

Examples of Rape Culture:
Blaming the victim (?She asked for it!?)
Trivializing sexual assault (?Boys will be boys!?)
Sexually explicit jokes
Tolerance of sexual harassment
Inflating false rape report statistics
Publicly scrutinizing a victim?s dress, mental state, motives, and history
Gratuitous gendered violence in movies and television
Defining ?manhood? as dominant and sexually aggressive
Defining ?womanhood? as submissive and sexually passive
Pressure on men to ?score?
Pressure on women to not appear ?cold?
Assuming only promiscuous women get raped
Assuming that men don?t get raped or that only ?weak? men get raped
Refusing to take rape accusations seriously
Teaching women to avoid getting raped instead of teaching men not to rape"

http://www.marshall.edu/wcenter/sexual-assault/rape-culture/

All of which are abundantly present in Western society.

Redefining it and saying that doesn't exist doesn't help resolve the issue of what was actually defined as existing and being a serious issue. In order to solve a problem we first have to address that there is a problem. The victim being blamed is not only happening extremely regularly in western nations, the rapist are rarely actually prosecuted or even prevented from continuing to rape after the fact is part of the problem all the while many times the rapists, rather than the victims are defended in the community.
 

Thaluikhain

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Namehere said:
This is where a complaint of rape leads to the rapist receiving nothing in terms of punishment - and more importantly control - and the victim is charged with a separate offense, sometimes capitol in nature. This certainly doesn't seem to happen, never mind regularly, in western countries.
The latter, not so much, the former, all the time.

Namehere said:
Rapists are not seen as morally correct. In certain parts of the world... by and large they are. Like places where if your raped you're assumed to have wanted it, which is premarital sex which is criminal in those places. After all if you didn't want it, you'd have made enough noise to attract the attention of others who would presumably intercede.
Sure...only that's not particularly different from what you said in the first paragraph. In parts of the world, they support rape because they assume the victim wanted it, whereas in the West we don't support rape, we just assume there wasn't a crime because it's the victim's fault.

Namehere said:
This is not however rape culture, this is an ugly side of human nature.
Why must rape culture not be an ugly side of human nature, of the results of one?

Namehere said:
Rape culture is right up there with Refer Madness. It does NOTHING to advance the discussion on viable means that might be put in place to further prevent and manage cases of rape.
Plenty of people have been discussing rape and societies reaction to it, using the term "rape culture". That plenty of other people are upset by the term is no great surprise, there is no way to discuss serious and widespread social problems without this happening. If that attitude wasn't there, there'd likely not be the problem in the first place.