Miss USA Controversy

[CRAVE CASE 55]

Perez Hilton is as fit to judge that contest as I am. Less so, as he doesn't get attracted to them sexually.

Seconded

 

[brodie21]

every person is biased. why do they have a gossip writer judging a beauty contest?

 

[blindey]

quote="chronobreak" post="18.108622.1838522"]

She was basically saying that not only does she like meatloaf, but that everyone should like meatloaf: they didn't ask her if *she* wanted to be in a gay marriage, they asked her what she thinks of gay marriage in general.

She made it clear that she meant no offense to anyone. All she said was it was "her belief" that marriage should be between a man and woman. She didn't say anything about anyone else, just stated a personal opinion that really shouldn't have been expressed in a public forum, which is how she got screwed.[/quote]

Basically this. While I do dislike political correctness for its own sake immensely, the issue of being offended is natural - people are going to be offended no matter what you say, whether you intended something or not, and regardless of the degree used. Despite being gay I commend her for standing up for whatever she believes even though I disagree with it, and find her justification...simplistic at best. We are all meant to question things - infromation, authority, ourselves. Not doing so is to be quite honestly lazy.

Everyone who says "thats how I was raised" makes her an idiot really don't understand human nature. Our parents views heavily influence our own and some we never can shake, no matter how intelligent a person is.

Human nature? Not entirely off base, though not entirely right either. The specific thing you are meaning here is conditioning and modeling. Any conditioning can be undone, given time, effort etc. Let's say one has a belief about something in the world. People will make excuses for that, even in the face of evidence to the contrary, such as all x do y after having a personal experience (or peripheral experience via the news or what have you). One has to stop, gather information and go outside themselves and come up with a conclusion based on information.

Marriage was set up as a religious bonding, why do gay people want to get married? Cos they still have this belief from their parents that you marry the person you love and that marriage bonds you, which leads back to my first point that parental POV influence well after childhood.

Whatever marriage has been set up to do, it has and will continue to change over the course of human civillization. It used to be children (what we would consider children but were then considered moreso grown-up) were arranged to be wed to an adult, and things like that.

Just to make things clear I am straight, I am not against homosexuality, but I am against homosexuals (or in fact anybody ie religious people/atheists/Gamers/Non-Gamers) chucking hissy fits over someones private views. You want people to accept your way of life, fine, but accept that other people will have their (possibly differing) way of life. As long as nobody is trying to force someone around to their thinking there shouldn't be a problem. Not that I expect it will ever happen that way, but hey we can hope.

Herein lies the problem: What you do in your private house, in your private display isn't my business - I don't care if you get high on 8 different types of drugs so long as you don't interfere with my right to do the same, as long as no one gets hurt and such. That is the whole thing. If you express an opinion/belief what have you, You. Will. Get. A. Reaction, everything from people disagreeing with you, to a debate such as this, to a hate speech.
(disregard the fact that the drug analogy would most likely be illegal, it's the underlying message I was trying to get across)

 

[Ionami]

Seems strange to ask her a question where a judge would almost certainly be biased about the outcome. Doesn't quite seem right to me, but I don't really believe in the Miss USA contest either.

Agreed. I don't think that gay/lesbian marriage should really even be a public discussion because of all the hatred and bias that it manages to draw up. I think that an openly-gay gossip blogger asking about gay marriage is like a Nazi asking if you're Jewish or not. She shouldn't ask that question, and doesn't deserve to judge if her verdict can be subjective like that.

Wow... you're comparing gays to Nazi's?

 

[Killerabbit]

I think she loves every second of the attention.

I mean, come on: if she'd have won the competition, no one would even care. But coming in second, that makes her a martyr for standing up for her opinions...which is how she was raised. Which itself makes no sense--how she was raised determines her opinions? She can't think for herself? Yeah--that's a real role-model right there!

Just like...certain recent additions to The Escapist membership, conservatives LOVE feeling like martyrs.

Just look at what she had to say:

I see the audience would've wanted me to be more politically correct..."I feel like I won," she said. "I feel like I'm the winner. I really do."

I bet she does. She got exactly what she wants: a soapbox.

In any case, when it comes to issues of sexual morality, she said: "I think that I believe that a marriage should be between a man and a woman"

But apparently showing her tits off to every person in America to win a competition is perfectly a-ok.

I honestly couldn't put it better my self

 

[Sphinx86]

Ok Cheese your not understanding what I'm trying to say and your beginning to sound as blinded as those people who are aggressively against gay rights.

No, you not understanding what I'm saying is causing you to think I sound as blinded as those people who are aggressively against gay rights.

Ok since we both believe we're being reasonable it's obvious that we both have either a differing opinion of such degree that it wont be resolved - fine- , or all the semantics involved is clouding our original points of view.

Thus my view in one sentence:
I believe that she doesn't deserved to be flamed in any manner for holding her beliefs, even though I think she is wrong in them.

Like I said in my first response:

Um, no one entered into her house to question her--she entered a competition where I'm guessing people are judged in part on their private views. I don't know much about this pageant, but was this the only question they asked that inquired about the private views of the contestants or something where she was subjected to unequal treatment?

Proof you don't actually read what I'm writing only what you want to read. I said nothing about her saying it, just that shes allowed to hold her opinion. As far as her saying them is concerned then yes the fact that they actually asked her to voice her opinion should negate the random ire usually accompanied by someone expressing their controversial views.

As far as I know most contestants are asked a question, though usually its something fluffy and inane like "If you could have one wish what would it be?" (standard answer world peace), not something so politically or socially charged. 90% of politicians wont even think about considering getting their speech writer to even draft a possible speech on this issue without 5 weeks of public polling, she was asked on the spot to come up with an answer.

And a 'Personal Belief' is a belief that is held personally, it means that is your view on the situation. So her 'Personal Belief' is that gay marriage shouldn't be allowed. And in fact that's a belief thats held across a majority of the world (as far as legalities are concerned) making it a Global Belief.

For instance you have the Personal Belief that she shouldn't have said it. It's not just a "Well I wouldn't have said it", your here in a public forum denouncing her for doing so. Proving that you think your Personal Belief extends to other people, and yet saying that hers shouldn't.

 

[Sphinx86]

She was basically saying that not only does she like meatloaf, but that everyone should like meatloaf: they didn't ask her if *she* wanted to be in a gay marriage, they asked her what she thinks of gay marriage in general.

She made it clear that she meant no offense to anyone. All she said was it was "her belief" that marriage should be between a man and woman. She didn't say anything about anyone else, just stated a personal opinion that really shouldn't have been expressed in a public forum, which is how she got screwed.

Basically this. While I do dislike political correctness for its own sake immensely, the issue of being offended is natural - people are going to be offended no matter what you say, whether you intended something or not, and regardless of the degree used. Despite being gay I commend her for standing up for whatever she believes even though I disagree with it, and find her justification...simplistic at best. We are all meant to question things - infromation, authority, ourselves. Not doing so is to be quite honestly lazy.

Everyone who says "thats how I was raised" makes her an idiot really don't understand human nature. Our parents views heavily influence our own and some we never can shake, no matter how intelligent a person is.

Human nature? Not entirely off base, though not entirely right either. The specific thing you are meaning here is conditioning and modeling. Any conditioning can be undone, given time, effort etc. Let's say one has a belief about something in the world. People will make excuses for that, even in the face of evidence to the contrary, such as all x do y after having a personal experience (or peripheral experience via the news or what have you). One has to stop, gather information and go outside themselves and come up with a conclusion based on information.

Agreed it is more conditioning that exact nature, but questioning that conditioning usually needs and external catalyst, if her beliefs have never been questioned because for instance shes never had experience with gay people, is that really her fault. No-one can go out and question every single piece of conditioning they have, most you wont even realise.

Marriage was set up as a religious bonding, why do gay people want to get married? Cos they still have this belief from their parents that you marry the person you love and that marriage bonds you, which leads back to my first point that parental POV influence well after childhood.

Whatever marriage has been set up to do, it has and will continue to change over the course of human civillization. It used to be children (what we would consider children but were then considered moreso grown-up) were arranged to be wed to an adult, and things like that.

This wasn't supposed to be so much about marriage as an institution (though i can understand why people misplaced my intention), it was more to strengthen the argument for childhood conditioning extends beyond childhood, something I've clarified more than once.

Just to make things clear I am straight, I am not against homosexuality, but I am against homosexuals (or in fact anybody ie religious people/atheists/Gamers/Non-Gamers) chucking hissy fits over someones private views. You want people to accept your way of life, fine, but accept that other people will have their (possibly differing) way of life. As long as nobody is trying to force someone around to their thinking there shouldn't be a problem. Not that I expect it will ever happen that way, but hey we can hope.

Herein lies the problem: What you do in your private house, in your private display isn't my business - I don't care if you get high on 8 different types of drugs so long as you don't interfere with my right to do the same, as long as no one gets hurt and such. That is the whole thing. If you express an opinion/belief what have you, You. Will. Get. A. Reaction, everything from people disagreeing with you, to a debate such as this, to a hate speech.
(disregard the fact that the drug analogy would most likely be illegal, it's the underlying message I was trying to get across)

Again I agree, and in most cases I also believe that people spouting off about their beliefs to make everyone else care needs a good talking to. But she was asked her opinion not just randomly soapboxing about it, so I can handle that she holds that opinion, she didn't push the issue, just stated her views. I don't believe she is deserving of the hate just for holding the views or expressing them the way she did, there are plenty of other people who hold worse views and are more vocal about them much more deserving of our disgust.

 

[CoziestPigeon]

I disagree with her views, but feel that she has a right to express them, misinformed as they are.

Said well.

 

[Sphinx86]

There's a difference between "my view in one sentence" and "one of my views in one sentence in which I pretend I didn't have another view, the one you are responding to"

For the sake of clarity I made my view in one sentence, because to be honest I had lost sight of what your original point was, something you have still really failed to make clear, I was hoping to just get it in one sentence back, rather than you feeling the need to continue along all the semantics that I'd tried to drop for clarity. I was just summarizing not trying to backpedal.

As far as I know most contestants are asked a question, though usually its something fluffy and inane like "If you could have one wish what would it be?" (standard answer world peace), not something so politically or socially charged.

That's why I said in my initial post to you: "I don't know much about this pageant, but was this the only question they asked that inquired about the private views of the contestants or something where she was subjected to unequal treatment?"

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.108622.1837323

And I said that everyone was asked a question but I wasn't sure whether they all got the same question or not.

And a 'Personal Belief' is a belief that is held personally, it means that is your view on the situation.

That means all beliefs you hold are Personal Beliefs. How exactly does a person hold a belief, but not hold it personally?

When they are a hypocrite, if you have one belief as to how you should behave then hold another for everyone else, thats being hypocritical ie My opinion counts and I should be free to express it, but whenever someone expresses a conflicting opinion they are an attention seeking bimbo.

 

[Sphinx86]

I disagree with her views, but feel that she has a right to express them, misinformed as they are.

Said well.

It is and I wish I'd left it at that rather than defending her further, I've been at this most of the day.

 

[Xvito]

If someone asks someone a question and then expects them to answer in a certain way, those people are... Bad people.

Or they're really stupid and naive.

 

[olicon]

It's been all over the media. Let me add here that I'm in Australia, and it's all over every frikkin paper here.
Personally though, I really don't see anything wrong with the answer. They asked her for her opinion on the issue, then tell her what she thinks is wrong? I call BS on that!

I too think that marriage is intrinsically a religious ritual. And therefore, it should only be between the opposite sex. It's almost like saying capital punishment is justified from religious perspective because it's part of the law enforcement system. Well, it's not!

I think that it's ok for someone to fall in love with, live with, and share legal benefits of a married couple with someone of the same sex.
However, this has NOTHING to do with marriage itself.

 

[DrX_1030]

That was not a fair question. its like asking do u believe in the right for people to have abortions or do you think they should be banned. You are gona piss off alot of people no matter what.
That being said i agree she shouldnt have lost the crown for answering with her real opinion. because it makes her a real person. not a dumb robot.
Also really, gay people are pushing it. And its getting me sick and tired.
Anyone up for a straight pride parade?

 

[Sphinx86]

There's a difference between "my view in one sentence" and "one of my views in one sentence in which I pretend I didn't have another view, the one you are responding to"

For the sake of clarity I made my view in one sentence,

I'm not criticizing you for putting your views in one sentence: I'm a big fan of the semi-colon, in fact. I'm criticizing your for being *unclear* by presenting yourself as only having that one view, that what you expressed in that sentence was the only thing I've been responding to.

I didn't mean to present it as only one view, but as a summary of my view, thats why I said we were getting lost in semantics and for clarity I'd express my view in one sentence.

And to clarify: your view on the issue is that my view is wrong? Thus you don't believe she should be allowed to hold a conflicting opinion to your own.

As far as I know most contestants are asked a question, though usually its something fluffy and inane like "If you could have one wish what would it be?" (standard answer world peace), not something so politically or socially charged.

That's why I said in my initial post to you: "I don't know much about this pageant, but was this the only question they asked that inquired about the private views of the contestants or something where she was subjected to unequal treatment?"

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.108622.1837323

And I said that everyone was asked a question but I wasn't sure whether they all got the same question or not.

Great--so why are you bringing it up again?

Because YOU brought up your original post stating that you weren't sure whether everyone was asked a question. Hence my clarifying AGAIN what I've gathered goes on at these things.
As shown here:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.108622.1838935

And a 'Personal Belief' is a belief that is held personally, it means that is your view on the situation.

That means all beliefs you hold are Personal Beliefs. How exactly does a person hold a belief, but not hold it personally?

When they are a hypocrite, if you have one belief as to how you should behave then hold another for everyone else, thats being hypocritical

Okay, great: then she's being criticized for Personal Beliefs that she holds should apply to everyone "in her country" by force of law, but not for Personal Beliefs that she holds only apply to her because she doesn't feel it's her place to judge others, or Personal Beliefs that she feels is not an issue where the government should be enforcing her morality on others.

Play with the words all you want, the concepts behind them remain. If you like those semantics better, well, whatever. Don't, however, try to disguise a flaw in your argument by using wordplay.

I'm not the one using wordplay. I'm the one who's tried to clarify at every stage, and even tried to drop all the semantics in order to get to the heart of the problem. Your the one who continues to need these massive posts in order hide the flaws in your argument.

I believe that holding the opinion that marriage should be just between a man and a woman is not deserving of flame, even though I hold a differing opinion. Yes she probably does believe this should be a matter of law, but shes not out campaigning for it so don't attack her for it, its just her view on the situation.

Now here's a challenge to you.
In ONE (1) sentence (since you say you like them so much) describe your view on the Miss USA Controversy.
Then - if you disagree with my view - in a maximum of TWO (2) sentences refute why my view is wrong.
If you do anything else then I'll just be proven right that it's you clouding the issue, if you do it then you'll prove that you don't want to cloud the issue.
Your call.