Poll: Boycott Rage

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blizzaradragon

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Mar 15, 2010
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Crono1973 said:
blizzaradragon said:
Crono1973 said:
Mxrz said:
Yes, they're totally screwing them over by. . . giving their paying customers something extra for their support. Goddamn, that is some true evil there.
They are devaluing the product once it is purchased.
So they are doing what is essentially basic economics? Seems legit to me.

In any other used market, once something is purchased and used the value depreciates. If you buy a new car, the second you drive it off of the lot the value goes down. The same should be said about games once the game is put into your console and started up. What developers are doing is essentially giving you the extra oomph for buying it new, just like a new car will have that extra oomph over a used car of the same type.

Essentially, when you buy a new product it should feel like a new product. If you buy a used product it should feel like a used product. Used markets exist for every other industry because of depreciation, so when you buy used you know you are getting a product inferior to a new version of said product. Now that games are doing the same thing, people feel they have the right to complain when in reality they don't. Gamers aren't entitled to shit when they buy used, just like people who buy used in any other market aren't entitled to anything.
If Ford slashed the seats when you resold the car, then it would be the same and it would be unacceptable.

The difference is that a car getting NORMAL wear and tear is acceptable. A game getting ARTIFICIAL wear and tear by the publisher in the interest of making more money is not acceptable, nor should it be.
No offense, but you're starting to grasp for straws now.

The difference is that games are an ARTIFICIAL MEDIA, not physical like a car. That is part of why everyone is getting so worked up about all this: they look at the game as a physical item. I don't know about you, but when I buy a game I pay for the data on the disc, not for the disc itself. I don't go and throw the disc like a frisbee, I play with the data of the disc. So why should someone who pays half the price of my get access to everything I have access to?

What is going on here is that people like you are getting butthurt that the $40 they spend on a game, which not a single cent is going back to the people who made it mind you, are not getting the exact same quality as someone who paid $60 for. The developers and publishers get not a single thing from you, why should they give you anything in return? Lets go back to a car example, since everyone seems to love those. You buy a Ford truck used, and after a day of driving around the engine craps out. You call Ford and demand that they do something about your engine, even though you didn't give them a cent of your money. Then when they tell you that since you didn't buy it from them they can't do anything you decide to boycott Ford altogether.

tl;dr You didn't support the developer/publisher so why should they support you
 

Twilight_guy

Sight, Sound, and Mind
Nov 24, 2008
7,131
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Well good luck to you generic freedom fighter. Your calls to action rest along side hundreds of other freedom fighters as being inspiring and... not really doing anything.

In order to control the actions of companies you need a major boycott. Even if you got everyone on the Escapist to do as you say, it still wouldn't be enough. If you want something to get done, you have to go bigger.
 

Stall

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Apr 16, 2011
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Crono1973 said:
No matter how you spin it, a person can buy a used couch and sit on it or even...gasp...sleep on it without paying anything to the company that made the couch. It's called the used market and it's legal. Comparing it to piracy is a fallacy as piracy is not legal and no one here is condoning piracy. Condoning used game sales =/= condoning piracy.
The analogy was intended to underline the flaws in your logic. It was not intended as an ad hominem attack against the used market, and the fact that you decided to interpret it was such is a fallacy in of its own. Even further, you failed to address the other points in my post. You assumed that the dismissal of my analogy was a good enough rebuttal, which it was not. I find that your overall arguing skills to be insufficient and lacking. Please, address the second paragraph of my post if you would, or admit that you cannot construct a sufficient enough counter-argument. Thank you.
 

irani_che

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Jan 28, 2010
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A crack/mod will get made sooner or later, i dont know how piraty this is (plz dont ban me)
it seems absurd if the levels are on the CD and you cannot use them.

If the levels were downloaded, where first buyer gets it for free and the second hand guy needs to buy them, I would be fine with it.
 

irani_che

New member
Jan 28, 2010
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blizzaradragon said:
Crono1973 said:
blizzaradragon said:
Crono1973 said:
Mxrz said:
Yes, they're totally screwing them over by. . . giving their paying customers something extra for their support. Goddamn, that is some true evil there.
They are devaluing the product once it is purchased.
So they are doing what is essentially basic economics? Seems legit to me.

In any other used market, once something is purchased and used the value depreciates. If you buy a new car, the second you drive it off of the lot the value goes down. The same should be said about games once the game is put into your console and started up. What developers are doing is essentially giving you the extra oomph for buying it new, just like a new car will have that extra oomph over a used car of the same type.

Essentially, when you buy a new product it should feel like a new product. If you buy a used product it should feel like a used product. Used markets exist for every other industry because of depreciation, so when you buy used you know you are getting a product inferior to a new version of said product. Now that games are doing the same thing, people feel they have the right to complain when in reality they don't. Gamers aren't entitled to shit when they buy used, just like people who buy used in any other market aren't entitled to anything.
If Ford slashed the seats when you resold the car, then it would be the same and it would be unacceptable.

The difference is that a car getting NORMAL wear and tear is acceptable. A game getting ARTIFICIAL wear and tear by the publisher in the interest of making more money is not acceptable, nor should it be.
No offense, but you're starting to grasp for straws now.

The difference is that games are an ARTIFICIAL MEDIA, not physical like a car. That is part of why everyone is getting so worked up about all this: they look at the game as a physical item. I don't know about you, but when I buy a game I pay for the data on the disc, not for the disc itself. I don't go and throw the disc like a frisbee, I play with the data of the disc. So why should someone who pays half the price of my get access to everything I have access to?

What is going on here is that people like you are getting butthurt that the $40 they spend on a game, which not a single cent is going back to the people who made it mind you, are not getting the exact same quality as someone who paid $60 for. The developers and publishers get not a single thing from you, why should they give you anything in return? Lets go back to a car example, since everyone seems to love those. You buy a Ford truck used, and after a day of driving around the engine craps out. You call Ford and demand that they do something about your engine, even though you didn't give them a cent of your money. Then when they tell you that since you didn't buy it from them they can't do anything you decide to boycott Ford altogether.

tl;dr You didn't support the developer/publisher so why should they support you
but, if you buy a second hand car, then you do not get a factory warranty. If the engine craps out on you ford wont care, the dealer might have a warranty though
 

JediMB

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Oct 25, 2008
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Crono1973 said:
No matter how you spin it, a person can buy a used couch and sit on it or even...gasp...sleep on it without paying anything to the company that made the couch. It's called the used market and it's legal. Comparing it to piracy is a fallacy as piracy is not legal and no one here is condoning piracy. Condoning used game sales =/= condoning piracy.
Thing is, when you're paying for a couch you pay for the material and manufacturing of that particular couch.

When you're paying for a video game you're not paying for the case, the disc or the instruction booklet. You're paying for the right to utilize and experience the software delivered on the disc.

It's like paying for a lifetime ticket for an amusement park. You're not paying for the ticket itself, but rather what it provides you with.
 

FPSMadPaul

Master Of The Smurfs
Sep 27, 2010
172
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Stall said:
If you care about video games and want to support the industry, then buy new. If you don't give a shit and just want to save yourself money, then feel free to buy used.
This entire argument summed up in two sentences, I tip my hat to you Sir.
 

magicmonkeybars

Gullible Dolt
Nov 20, 2007
908
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I just want to go back to the days when we bought a game and it included all of it's content right from the start without having to buy the "Day 1 on disk dlc" as some kind of afterthought or proof of first purchase.

Seriously how many dicks do I need to suck in order for some semblance of sanity to be restored to this god forsaken planet.
 

blizzaradragon

New member
Mar 15, 2010
455
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irani_che said:
blizzaradragon said:
Crono1973 said:
blizzaradragon said:
Crono1973 said:
Mxrz said:
Yes, they're totally screwing them over by. . . giving their paying customers something extra for their support. Goddamn, that is some true evil there.
They are devaluing the product once it is purchased.
So they are doing what is essentially basic economics? Seems legit to me.

In any other used market, once something is purchased and used the value depreciates. If you buy a new car, the second you drive it off of the lot the value goes down. The same should be said about games once the game is put into your console and started up. What developers are doing is essentially giving you the extra oomph for buying it new, just like a new car will have that extra oomph over a used car of the same type.

Essentially, when you buy a new product it should feel like a new product. If you buy a used product it should feel like a used product. Used markets exist for every other industry because of depreciation, so when you buy used you know you are getting a product inferior to a new version of said product. Now that games are doing the same thing, people feel they have the right to complain when in reality they don't. Gamers aren't entitled to shit when they buy used, just like people who buy used in any other market aren't entitled to anything.
If Ford slashed the seats when you resold the car, then it would be the same and it would be unacceptable.

The difference is that a car getting NORMAL wear and tear is acceptable. A game getting ARTIFICIAL wear and tear by the publisher in the interest of making more money is not acceptable, nor should it be.
No offense, but you're starting to grasp for straws now.

The difference is that games are an ARTIFICIAL MEDIA, not physical like a car. That is part of why everyone is getting so worked up about all this: they look at the game as a physical item. I don't know about you, but when I buy a game I pay for the data on the disc, not for the disc itself. I don't go and throw the disc like a frisbee, I play with the data of the disc. So why should someone who pays half the price of my get access to everything I have access to?

What is going on here is that people like you are getting butthurt that the $40 they spend on a game, which not a single cent is going back to the people who made it mind you, are not getting the exact same quality as someone who paid $60 for. The developers and publishers get not a single thing from you, why should they give you anything in return? Lets go back to a car example, since everyone seems to love those. You buy a Ford truck used, and after a day of driving around the engine craps out. You call Ford and demand that they do something about your engine, even though you didn't give them a cent of your money. Then when they tell you that since you didn't buy it from them they can't do anything you decide to boycott Ford altogether.

tl;dr You didn't support the developer/publisher so why should they support you
but, if you buy a second hand car, then you do not get a factory warranty. If the engine craps out on you ford wont care, the dealer might have a warranty though
Very true. However that goes into a different area, and also goes back to the point that games are different than a car or clothes and thus need to find a way for the used market to work better. You do make a valid point though.
 

CM156_v1legacy

Revelation 9:6
Mar 23, 2011
3,997
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I support used sales fully.

And yet, with this, I disagree.

From what it looks like, this is a small little bonus they are adding for people who buy new. Not so much taking it away from those who buy used. Jim Sterling even said as much. They are rewarding new players, not punishing used ones. So that's fine by me.

Now, when they start cutting large things out of the game, then no. I'll be with you. But this issue is small and is actually a reward for those who buy new.
 

Frostbite3789

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Jul 12, 2010
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Zetion said:
JediMB said:
I pre-ordered RAGE.

And then I pre-ordered RAGE again.

Now I'm just considering pre-ordering a third copy to protest these ridiculous cries for "boycott."
"Im going to spend ridiculous amounts of my own money, Yeah that'll show those assholes on the Escapist forum what's what! You hear that you fuckers, I bought 3 copies for no reason with my own god damn money, TAKE THAT YOU BOYCOTTING ASSHOLES"

That's a nice strategy you've got their.
Considering the entire point of a 'boycott' is to deny the developer money...it is. Also, nice spelling you got there.

boy·cott/ˈboiˌkät/
Verb: Withdraw from commercial or social relations with (a country, organization, or person) as a punishment or protest.

He probably got the first two copies, for console/PC. As people sometimes do. I've done it, but usually after the price is down quite a bit.
 

Epona

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Jun 24, 2011
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blizzaradragon said:
Crono1973 said:
blizzaradragon said:
Crono1973 said:
Mxrz said:
Yes, they're totally screwing them over by. . . giving their paying customers something extra for their support. Goddamn, that is some true evil there.
They are devaluing the product once it is purchased.
So they are doing what is essentially basic economics? Seems legit to me.

In any other used market, once something is purchased and used the value depreciates. If you buy a new car, the second you drive it off of the lot the value goes down. The same should be said about games once the game is put into your console and started up. What developers are doing is essentially giving you the extra oomph for buying it new, just like a new car will have that extra oomph over a used car of the same type.

Essentially, when you buy a new product it should feel like a new product. If you buy a used product it should feel like a used product. Used markets exist for every other industry because of depreciation, so when you buy used you know you are getting a product inferior to a new version of said product. Now that games are doing the same thing, people feel they have the right to complain when in reality they don't. Gamers aren't entitled to shit when they buy used, just like people who buy used in any other market aren't entitled to anything.
If Ford slashed the seats when you resold the car, then it would be the same and it would be unacceptable.

The difference is that a car getting NORMAL wear and tear is acceptable. A game getting ARTIFICIAL wear and tear by the publisher in the interest of making more money is not acceptable, nor should it be.
No offense, but you're starting to grasp for straws now.

The difference is that games are an ARTIFICIAL MEDIA, not physical like a car. That is part of why everyone is getting so worked up about all this: they look at the game as a physical item. I don't know about you, but when I buy a game I pay for the data on the disc, not for the disc itself. I don't go and throw the disc like a frisbee, I play with the data of the disc. So why should someone who pays half the price of my get access to everything I have access to?

What is going on here is that people like you are getting butthurt that the $40 they spend on a game, which not a single cent is going back to the people who made it mind you, are not getting the exact same quality as someone who paid $60 for. The developers and publishers get not a single thing from you, why should they give you anything in return? Lets go back to a car example, since everyone seems to love those. You buy a Ford truck used, and after a day of driving around the engine craps out. You call Ford and demand that they do something about your engine, even though you didn't give them a cent of your money. Then when they tell you that since you didn't buy it from them they can't do anything you decide to boycott Ford altogether.

tl;dr You didn't support the developer/publisher so why should they support you
It's you who are grasping at straws. Games are a product, not an artificial product but a real product. When you buy a CD, you want the music but music isn't just floating in space (else it would be free), it's attached to the media, permanently.

You know though, you may be on to something, perhaps digital code really is artificial and as such, has no value. Like music floating in the air (from the radio), it can be grabbed for free with the correct device (an antenna in that case). Pointing out that games are artificial isn't going to help your case.

None of this matters though because the bottom line is that NORMAL wear and tear is acceptable because it is naturally (can't be avoided) or accidentally occurring. ARTIFICIAL wear and tear is done on purpose and it can be avoided.
 

Raso719

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May 7, 2011
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Dastardly said:
Why do you buy games that you think suck? That's not rational human behavior. If you want to send the message that a game sucks, try behaving as though you believe the game sucks. If you want to play it, you must not think it sucks... or you're a crazy person, perhaps? Can't be sure.
It's simple. Until you play the whole you can't know if it's good or not. You have to be confident that you will like the game. Buying a movie or game is a risk as you need assume that you were given all of the relevant data as to weather you will enjoy the game or not. Brutal Legend's demo was a shining example of how you can deliberately mislead a consumer into thinking the game has qualities they will like. I wanted a hack and slash game but indeed I got an bad RTS. They have my money and the only thing I can do to tell them their game sucks is to write a later. But you know how well w letter works? When many of your peers don't car and will blindly buy games over and over a letter means dick because the money says something very different. And you know what else? Maybe, just maybe, I'll get that used game and it will be awesome and I'll buy some DLC and keep it for a while then when the sequel comes out I'll preorder it. The problem is that if you've lost my trust I'm not going to waste my money on you. And if I feel like giving someone a second chance I'm not going support you out right. You're neutral, not a friend and I'm not obligated to be friendly. Just because you don't understand the rationale being my actions doesn't make them irrational. Besides, rationale is, sadly, highly relative and subjective from situation to person.

To what end? Using this data to make the game better won't improve sales if you can get that same "now more awesome" game at used prices. The only way used sales data is useful to a publisher is to answer the question, "How much money are we losing by not ensuring that the new product is more valuable than a used product?"
So very narrow minded. I'm sorry but it is. I mean maybe there are gamers who want to support their developers. At the same time, you know, the less people who trade them in the harder it is to find a used copy. The longer it takes because there is a bounty of used game on the shelf the more new copies you can sell. And, yeah, that adds up. There is always something to learn from data. Are people selling them after beating the single player campaign or after a new game comes out? Maybe they want to beat the game to 100% completion but you dragged it out with too much grind and not enough substance? and the longer that person owns the game the harder it is for people to find used copies. You will never eliminate used sales but can you can make games better so that people keep them longer.

You aren't being treated like "an enemy." You're just not being treated like a friend. There's a difference. If my friend comes to the door, I let him in. If my enemy comes to the door, I swear at him and send him away with a call to the cops. If a stranger, neither friend nor enemy comes to the door, I behave in a more neutral fashion until I tell if he's one or the other.

If you're buying used, you aren't a customer. Not to the publisher. You and the publisher have entered no transaction whatsoever, so you're not even on their radar. Why should they let you in, when you haven't shown them you're a friend?
No we're not being treated like the enemy, you're right, more like expendable and justifiable civilian casualties in a war. These resumes are neither civil or mutually equitable. They're draconian and they won't solve anything. Actually, this particular action might very well reduce the amount of used copies that are sold by making more people pirate the game. And yes, that is the publisher's fault because they have to be aware of this little fact. They understand these things, they're not dumb. They know how people will react and they know not everyone will take the most legal course of actions. They are practically inviting it. i'm not justifying pirating this game or any game but you need to understand the problem and why people do what they do before solving the problem.
 

JediMB

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Oct 25, 2008
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Zetion said:
JediMB said:
I pre-ordered RAGE.

And then I pre-ordered RAGE again.

Now I'm just considering pre-ordering a third copy to protest these ridiculous cries for "boycott."
"Im going to spend ridiculous amounts of my own money, Yeah that'll show those assholes on the Escapist forum what's what! You hear that you fuckers, I bought 3 copies for no reason with my own god damn money, TAKE THAT YOU BOYCOTTING ASSHOLES!"

That's a nice strategy you've got there.
Actually, the second copy is a gift. The third would be one as well.

You gotta share, you gotta care. It's the right thing to do. :p
 

Epona

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Jun 24, 2011
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JediMB said:
Crono1973 said:
No matter how you spin it, a person can buy a used couch and sit on it or even...gasp...sleep on it without paying anything to the company that made the couch. It's called the used market and it's legal. Comparing it to piracy is a fallacy as piracy is not legal and no one here is condoning piracy. Condoning used game sales =/= condoning piracy.
Thing is, when you're paying for a couch you pay for the material and manufacturing of that particular couch.

When you're paying for a video game you're not paying for the case, the disc or the instruction booklet. You're paying for the right to utilize and experience the software delivered on the disc.

It's like paying for a lifetime ticket for an amusement park. You're not paying for the ticket itself, but rather what it provides you with.
Interesting isn't it. When you buy a couch, all of it belongs to you. The wood, the cloth, the foam cushions but when you buy software, you own nothing but a 50 cent disc, plastic case and a small book.

How does this help your argument?

No! In reality, you own that copy of the game and you can do anything you like with it. You can run over it with your car, you can sell it to Gamestop, sell it on eBay, give it to your little brother, use it as a drink coaster. You own it but you can't break copyright laws with it. Of course, with the couch, you own it but you can't break any laws with it either. Like you can't drop the couch on your friend, that would be a crime. You may own a car, but you can't break laws with it. You still own it though.

Get my point, being unable to copy it (other than a backup) doesn't mean you don't own it.
 

thepyrethatburns

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Sep 22, 2010
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Cenequus said:
I rather buy the game new rather than pay for day 1 DLC. So no especially when we're talking about a new IP which if doesn't sell well in the first month(new copies) will have no follow up no matter how good the game is.
Well, if they want their new IP to take off, is alienating potential customers really a good idea? At one point, CliffyB was talking about doing something like this for Gears 3 but that's an established IP with an established fanbase so, if he had decided to go through with that, they could have gotten away with it. Launching a new IP with the promise of cutting content if you don't buy the game new seems to be reaching for new heights of stupidity in marketing.

At some point, you just have to let people or developers collect their Darwin Award.

As for my own feelings on the actual content rather than how poorly this is being marketed:

 

Epona

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Jun 24, 2011
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CM156 said:
I support used sales fully.

And yet, with this, I disagree.

From what it looks like, this is a small little bonus they are adding for people who buy new. Not so much taking it away from those who buy used. Jim Sterling even said as much. They are rewarding new players, not punishing used ones. So that's fine by me.

Now, when they start cutting large things out of the game, then no. I'll be with you. But this issue is small and is actually a reward for those who buy new.
What do you think the next step is? Will you be happy for supporting this step when you KNOW that somewhere down the line, they will begin removing critical parts of a game?
 

CM156_v1legacy

Revelation 9:6
Mar 23, 2011
3,997
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Crono1973 said:
CM156 said:
I support used sales fully.

And yet, with this, I disagree.

From what it looks like, this is a small little bonus they are adding for people who buy new. Not so much taking it away from those who buy used. Jim Sterling even said as much. They are rewarding new players, not punishing used ones. So that's fine by me.

Now, when they start cutting large things out of the game, then no. I'll be with you. But this issue is small and is actually a reward for those who buy new.
What do you think the next step is? Will you be happy for supporting this step when you KNOW that somewhere down the line, they will begin removing critical parts of a game?
If it gets that bad, yes. I will stand up. But that's not this.

But I'm not going to say "You cannot give a small thing to people who buy new that doesn't affect the game much". That's silly.

You know what I think the best way to fight used sales would be? Anyone who buys new gets a small discount on DLC in the future. Or gets a little side quest.

JediMB said:
You gotta share, you gotta care. It's the right thing to do. :p
And there will always be a way through!

....

Damn, I hate you.