Poll: Lara and the Tomb raider controversy

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Well looking at what they did to Samus it is...

 

[anthony87]

If she ends up getting stronger as the game goes on, no. If she's constently getting abused, beaten, and depicted as "weak" through out the game untill the end credits, maybe.

When is she depicted as weak? She beats everyone in the trailers.

If you mean she isn't portrayed as a Mary Sue who can just magic her way out of shitty situations by her being so perfect. Then yea, she's no longer that.

Like most male characters you mean? What's wrong with letting us girls have a little power fantasy. You guys get to be Batman etc.

Is that really your line of thinking?

"Batman is a man so there should be a female one too because EQUALITY!"

Well Batman is a Mary Sure but no one cares because he's a guy...

I collect Batman comics so I certainly don't have anything against him. But he is definitely a Mary Sue most of the time.

Batman lost his parents, developed a psychological compulsion to save everyone and became so obsessed with this he sacrificed his personal life and relationships so he could peruse his ambition with the determination of a mad dog and he refuses to do the things required to truly achieve his goal and as a result he's condemned to continue his hopeless endeavour for the rest of his life, never being able to complete the task he's set himself.

Yea, total Mary Sue.

Lara's original origin story wasn't that different yet everyone has a problem with her being tough.

Please point out this "everyone" to me. In all my years I've never heard anyone say "That damn Lara Croft character. She far tougher than a girl should be!"

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Please point out this "everyone" to me. In all my years I've never heard anyone say "That damn Lara Croft character. She far tougher than a girl should be!"

Then why do they feel the need to make her into a character 'that male gamers will want to protect.'

snip

Lara had a backstory before not sure where you got that from...

snip

Well looking at what they did to Samus it is...

Yea, because this game is being made by Team Ninja.

The comments the dev made at e3 don't exactly fill me with confidence.

 

[anthony87]

Please point out this "everyone" to me. In all my years I've never heard anyone say "That damn Lara Croft character. She far tougher than a girl should be!"

Then why do they feel the need to make her into a character 'that male gamers will want to protect.'

snip

Lara had a backstory before not sure where you got that from...

Because the vast majority of people don't really give two shits about Lara Croft anymore. Sure, the producer or whoever it was could've worded what he said better but the sentiment is clear from his words if you're willing to get over the "male gamers" part.

They're trying to make a character that people will be emotionally invested and interested in. Something that Lara Croft hasn't been for years, if she even was that at all.

As for that backstory you keep talking about.....what backstory? I honestly have no idea what her backstory is beyond "Is rich and comes from long line of explorers"....or something like that.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

SNIP

I said in my original post that we would have to wait and see if you go and have a look.

I can't be certain of it any more than you can, can I.

I don't have a good feelign about it

 

[m19]

Like most male characters you mean? What's wrong with letting us girls have a little power fantasy. You guys get to be Batman etc.

There is nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is calling a character weak because she doesn't live up to some ultimate power trip.

 

[Da Orky Man]

Is the concept itself interesting and could it make for an engaging gameplay experience; Yes.

Do I think Crystal Dynamics (or any other game developer) has the subtle expertise to pull it off; NOOOOOO!!!

At least it isn't Team Ninja. Always be glad it isn't Team Ninja.

 

[ZtH]

I would say it's not really sexist, but the guy who came on to talk to it is pretty much sexist and awful. The game isn't necessarily bad, but that guy is.

 

[chadachada123]

snip

Well looking at what they did to Samus it is...

Look, EVERYONE hates what they did to Samus. Guys and girls. She went from awesome badass to wimp that needed a knight in shining armor to show her the way. Other-M is non-cannon to me.

Trust us, we get that. We hate that too.

That's not what I see happening with Lara, either. The thing is, Lara is getting a *reboot.* One that gives her a bit more realism.

Samus didn't get rebooted, she just get kicked in the proverbial nuts.

Besides, look at the Dark Knight. That version of Batman actually has emotion in comparison to the older movie Batmans. Ejecting some emotion didn't turn him into a sniveling weakling like what happened with Samus.

I feel that you're too quick to latch onto these fears, and that you don't need to be so worried. Cautious, absolutely, but not worried.

 

[KRAKENDIE]

"But across media, it happens almost exclusively to women"

Nope, most rape of main character depicted in media has been of men being raped (* for those not in prison or childhood):
-Pulp Fiction*
-Deliverance*
-Midnight Cowboy*
-American History X
-Mysterious Skin*
-Scum
-Shawshank Redemption

And it is heavily implied in many other films like Mad Max. You know why I think this is? I don't think this is for any particular interest in male-on-male sex, I think this is simply because most stories are ABOUT men, they take the principal roles. And considering rape is a profound thing to happen, male-rape is going to be depicted. So when there are female principal role, why should it be any different?

And the justification is never "well duh, he's a man" nor was the justification "Well duh, she's a woman" with Lara, BOTH of those are made up.

The justification is more like "Well duh, THE RAPIST is a man" that's the kind of evil that comes from men without the restraint of society, laws, and learned decency kept in check. Though it is not just men.

It is not sexist to address the reality that men will try to force themselves women, it is very true. It is in no way misogynist, this is misanthropic (against men) if anything as it shows men as animalistic rapists and women as just normal people who wouldn't want such abuse.

This says NOTHING about women, this says something ABOUT MEN!

Two premises here:
(1) there are a LOT of men out there capable of the horrific crime of rape, even in large groups conspiring together to commit rape
(2) Overall men have a preference for women, though some have prefer males, a large proportion will easily go for either

You can't have all these male protagonists in the media getting raped, but then say there should be must be a conspiracy by all writers so that female protagonists by must be always have such character armour that there is no even possibility nor intent that they might be raped, so there is no tension that they may or may not suffer a terrible fate.

This is denial about the nature of men who reject all rules of society and decency, when they become criminals and mercenaries with no accountability to any society or family, the kind of anti-social thugs Lara would face. If they are OK with killing an unarmed woman, why would they be worried about her consent? These are utterly amoral kind of people.

Think about this, Lara is a pretty well adjusted character from Britain, she's not a psycho, yet later she is regularly heavily armed. Why? Why would she chose to arm herself so often? Many Americans are raised to carry guns but not Brits, she'd need a personal reason. Self-defence from the most severe and WIDESPREAD threat as rape makes sense. She's not the type of character to have a chaperone, or not go into dangerous situation without tell people where she is going, she's independent and guns are a way of getting that independence OVER threats like rape.

First of all, Shawshank Redemption and American History X were both in prison. Second of all, there are more female characters being raped than males in your list in the Horror and Rape-Revenge genres alone. Please.

No one is saying female characters must be excluded from being raped in media. There's more of that incredible projecting I've been seeing. What they're saying is that rape shouldn't be the go-to 'world-shatterer' for female characters, as the Tomb Raider developers very much explicated that it is.

I'm going to assume you oversimplify and compartmentalize these points on purpose and not for lack of understanding. No one is saying it's sexism to suggest men rape women, it's sexism to suggest that a player will want to "protect" a female character from rape and that that is how a male player must connect with a female character, especially because females aren't the only people who suffer from rape.

Note: Hatred of men is called misandry.

The majority of rapists admit to not having a sexual preference when it comes to rape, and most males who rape males can say without a doubt that they aren't gay. You don't seem to actually understand rape sociology or psychology. Also, those aren't "premises".

No one is saying anything of the sort. No one has suggested female characters should never be raped in media, or that males being raped in media is something to shrug off. I certainly am not. Have you even read the posts in this thread?

Your bit about the mercenaries being amoral doesn't lend anything to this discussion. We know the mercenaries are amoral.

Why would she choose to arm herself so often? I don't know, maybe it has something to do with delving deep into violent, developing countries looking for incredibly valuable treasures and artifacts while droves of seasoned pirates and henchmen are looking for them at the same time?

Also, you're flat-out wrong about the assertion that being raped is the most sensible reason for her to be heavily-armed. If you knew a single thing about rape survivor psychology you would know that if Lara were raped while exploring dangerous areas, she would never do it ever again. A rape victim almost never resigns to actively pursue the environment and activities that led to their rape, in this case treasure-hunting, and use guns or protection as a means of curbing the likelihood. Capitalize all the words you want, but professional psychoanalysis on all levels and personal testimony have echoed the truth that a rape survivor would not say "I'll still go do the things in places where I'm at risk for rape, I'll just bring a gun!" They would avoid it like a plague just about every time. She's "not the type of character"? That's the part you don't get. Being raped changes who a person is. And before this lame prequel, she resembled nothing that a rape survivor would be only a decade or two after their rape. To your point, she would at best begin to have someone by her side, a bodyguard of some sort, if she did continue to explore, and/or she would not go at it with nearly the same attitude that she clearly does in the Tomb Raider games. There would be paranoia, fear, as well as her ruthlessness and violence, but there would not be the cool, almost humored penchant for exploration and ruthlessness.

 

[Valis88]

I've never played a video game where something like that trailer, happens to a man, movies maybe different, but not video games.



(Edit because my original was to angry)

 

[Able Seacat]

snip

First of all, Shawshank Redemption and American History X were both in prison. Second of all, there are more female characters being raped than males in your list in the Horror and Rape-Revenge genres alone. Please.

No one is saying female characters must be excluded from being raped in media. There's more of that incredible projecting I've been seeing. What they're saying is that rape shouldn't be the go-to 'world-shatterer' for female characters, as the Tomb Raider developers very much explicated that it is.

I'm going to assume you oversimplify and compartmentalize these points on purpose and not for lack of understanding. No one is saying it's sexism to suggest men rape women, it's sexism to suggest that a player will want to "protect" a female character from rape and that that is how a male player must connect with a female character, especially because females aren't the only people who suffer from rape.

Note: Hatred of men is called misandry.

The majority of rapists admit to not having a sexual preference when it comes to rape, and most males who rape males can say without a doubt that they aren't gay. You don't seem to actually understand rape sociology or psychology. Also, those aren't "premises".

No one is saying anything of the sort. No one has suggested female characters should never be raped in media, or that males being raped in media is something to shrug off. I certainly am not. Have you even read the posts in this thread?

Your bit about the mercenaries being amoral doesn't lend anything to this discussion. We know the mercenaries are amoral.

Why would she choose to arm herself so often? I don't know, maybe it has something to do with delving deep into violent, developing countries looking for incredibly valuable treasures and artifacts while droves of seasoned pirates and henchmen are looking for them at the same time?

Also, you're flat-out wrong about the assertion that being raped is the most sensible reason for her to be heavily-armed. If you knew a single thing about rape survivor psychology you would know that if Lara were raped while exploring dangerous areas, she would never do it ever again. A rape victim almost never resigns to actively pursue the environment and activities that led to their rape, in this case treasure-hunting, and use guns or protection as a means of curbing the likelihood. Capitalize all the words you want, but professional psychoanalysis on all levels and personal testimony have echoed the truth that a rape survivor would not say "I'll still go do the things in places where I'm at risk for rape, I'll just bring a gun!" They would avoid it like a plague just about every time. She's "not the type of character"? That's the part you don't get. Being raped changes who a person is. And before this lame prequel, she resembled nothing that a rape survivor would be only a decade or two after their rape. To your point, she would at best begin to have someone by her side, a bodyguard of some sort, if she did continue to explore, and/or she would not go at it with nearly the same attitude that she clearly does in the Tomb Raider games. There would be paranoia, fear, as well as her ruthlessness and violence, but there would not be the cool, almost humored penchant for exploration and ruthlessness.

But she isn't actually raped there is only the threat of rape. Personally I think this one scene has been thrown out of proportion with no help from their marketing.

 

[Valis88]

Interesting question.

How would you guys feel if in those trailers, instead of Laura, it was a guy?

Would it be such a hot debate? or would we all feel differently?

 

[m19]

I've never played a video game where something like that trailer, happens to a man, movies maybe different, but not video games.

FEAR 2. And it's far far worse than the overblown TR trailer.