Poll: Obama Shutting Down Guantanamo Bay. Good or Bad?

[Alex_P]

I mean we gain very useful information from torturing prisoners that save American lives.

Many of the prisoners there don't have much actionable intelligence they can give us in the first place.
What information they do have quickly becomes "stale" as you hold them. (I mean, seriously, how is a guy you captured in 2004 gonna know shit about what bin Laden might be doing today?)

Every credible allegation of torture or prisoner abuse drives more people to join enemy forces in Iraq or Afghanistan. That means that every credible allegation of torture or prisoner abuse costs soldiers' lives.
People leave that part out when they talk about how "torture saves lives" -- if you're going to do the cold calculus of how many people are killed vs. how many are saved, you can't go leaving terms out of your little equation.

Can anyone here prove that torture is superior to other intelligence-gathering techniques? I doubt it, given that I've seen members of the intelligence community say otherwise.

-- Alex

 

[Wyatt]

ill avoid the whole 'it saves lives' debate, mostly, i think its possable that it has provided some solid information we can use. after all if torture DIDNT work we certianly wouldnt be doing it. reminds me of the old saw about how "if crime didnt pay there would be no criminal's". if torture didnt work we wouldnt be torturing.

anyhow having said that i think its a great idea to close Gitmo simply because we are America. we take pride in our sence of fair play, our stance on human rights, liberty , and freedom, not to mention the rule of law and simple Justice. a place like Gitmo quite simply spits in the face of everything that i think makes our nation great. its like the Pope suddenly holding satanic worship services.

i for one dont think that i need 'security' so bad that we as a nation become no beter than the scum we are fighting. not only that, we ARE (like it or not) the worlds 'champion' for human rights, its pretty hard to hold nations like China and N Korea too account when we are doing thing just as bad. how do you say to china its NOT ok to run over students with tanks when your kidnapping people and torturing them ourselves?

im as dyed in the wool red white and blue a they come and BECAUSE im those things i say if people have to die in more 9/11 style attacks because we choose NOT to torture than so be it. better to die on your feet standing for something right, and just, and noble than live on your knees in just another shit hole of a nation only out for oursevles first and if you dont hold an American pass port than fuck you, your not even as good as an animal.

 

[Hunde Des Krieg]

Depends on how you look at it...

Bad idea... we're letting enemy combatants to be moved to places where they don't belong and giving them Constitutional rights as if they were U.S. born citizens. Honestly, they're not American citizens so the Constitution doesn't cover them.

Good... Well, they're moving them into jails with American criminals... many of whom will remember 9/11 better than most people and will save us money by killing the newly moved in people and sparing our beloved government the disgrace of dirtying it's hands. Chow line anyone?

wow your pretty much a sum of everything that is wrong with america, just because there not U.S. citizens doesn't mean they aren't human beings. they deserve a fair trial.

I hardly think that is "everything wrong with America". There are many more problems and that one is hardly the worst.

 

[Hunde Des Krieg]

Guantanamo ain't closed yet. I also have not seen any urgent iraq troop withdrawls, and we have a 50% force increase on its way to afghanistan.
i'm going to wager that the following occurs:

"unforseen circucmstances have delayed our decision to close guantanamo bay for indef inatly."
MR PRESIDENT MR PRESIDENT IS IT TRUE THAT YOU WILL BE APPEARING IN NEXT MONTHS SPORTS ILLUSTRATED SWIMSUIT ISSUE?
"Why yes, rachel maddow, I'm so glad you brought this important issue up. I will be appearing in the swimsuit issue-- in a swimsuit."

Few months of fighting an uphill battle there... hey... maybe a nice, out of the way place to send all these psychotic folks who ended up in afghanistan from god knows where would be a good thing. You know, like some sort of prison we can whip up on an island thats not connected to the US mainland... like at a military base or something, boy I wish we had a place like that so we could deal with these people...


o wait, we've already got one, and I bet we can get away with blaming bush while we continue to use it.

Believing in change in american policy after switching from the repubs to the dems is a lot like believing you'll see jesus when you die. Sure, it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, but you end up in the same box, getting eaten by worms. I could be wrong, he might end the wars and close the prison.

I just find it very, very unlikely.

There isn't an urgent withdrawal because an agreement was reached to have everyone out by 2011(I think) and he always said he was going to increase troop activity in Afghanistan.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

The SAS: Torturing people does not work.

MI6: Torture does not work.

MI5: Torture does not work.

You have the world's finest special forces, and the two oldest spy networks in the world that state that torturee does not work. I'm sorry, but are any of you listening?


As for the rest:

1. The Gitmo prisoners are POWs. They're combatants, they have guns and everything.....they are Prisoners of War. Put them in a POW camp until the war is over. Which may well be never. So?

 

[Anton P. Nym]

Of course, let's not forget that many of the people at Gitmo have already been released... because bad intel got innocent people arrested. (Don't know if any of them were "subjected to enhanced interrogation" but I wouldn't bet against it.)

Indeed, there's a big block of people sold up the river by their enemies (for a quick buck from the gullible Yanquis) already proven innocent of the charges... but now no one will take them back because they'd been arrested, or because their countries of origin (like China) have outright said they'll be beaten to a pulp if they ever come back. So they're stuck in Gitmo thanks to this ill-conceived program.

The whole idea behind Gitmo was a bad one; badly conceieved and badly executed. Whatever it gained in intelligence (likely precious little that couldn't have been obtained otherwise, by conventional interrogation) it cost the US the moral high ground, a huge blow to public opinion, its credibility when promoting democracy abroad, and a steep drop in international support that vastly increased the costs of the wars (note plural) borne by the American taxpayer.

Closing Gitmo will be a good start on fixing that, but it won't be a cure-all.

-- Steve

 

[mike1921]

Depends on how you look at it...

Bad idea... we're letting enemy combatants to be moved to places where they don't belong and giving them Constitutional rights as if they were U.S. born citizens. Honestly, they're not American citizens so the Constitution doesn't cover them.

Good... Well, they're moving them into jails with American criminals... many of whom will remember 9/11 better than most people and will save us money by killing the newly moved in people and sparing our beloved government the disgrace of dirtying it's hands. Chow line anyone?

If they're in our prisons we have to atleast give them the right to the trial. ALso, not everyone there is a terrorist.

I mean we gain very useful information from torturing prisoners that save American lives

No, you don't. You gain random information. You'd probably admit to killing Abe lincoln if I tortured you enough.

but really, how many people have died from, let's say, waterboarding? Zero. It is just a sensation of drowning and it gives the U.S. vital info so that the next thing,

For one, I don't consider death to be the worst thing that could ever happen to you. I care more about 2500 innocent people being tortured like that than 3000 dieing. Plus, it's bullshit info we're getting it.

 

[SomeBritishDude]

I can understand why he would do this but is it really a good idea? I mean we gain very useful information from torturing prisoners that save American lives. People can make the argument about it being a violation of the Constitution. But they are not American citizens so should they have those right? So is it a good idea? or a bad one?

They're human. Therefore they have human rights, terrorists or not.

Anyway, if someone was torturing me, and they told me if I said I was a terrorist they'd stop, I know what I'd say.

It doesn't really matter either way. With Guantanamo gone it will just get replaced by a less public detention center. It's sad, but true.

 

[fix-the-spade]

I can understand why he would do this but is it really a good idea? I mean we gain very useful information from torturing prisoners that save American lives.

When you torture a man, he tells you what you want to hear.
He doesn't tell you it because it's true, or a lie, or because it's what he believes. He tells you it because it will make you stop.


Remember that when anyone tries to justify torture as a means of information gathering. Closing guantanamo or any similar prison can only be a good idea. You cannot claim any moral ground if you run around grabbing people and locking them up indefinitely without charge. The US should be leading by example.

 

[yzzlthtz]

Guantanamo ain't closed yet. I also have not seen any urgent iraq troop withdrawls, and we have a 50% force increase on its way to afghanistan.
i'm going to wager that the following occurs:

"unforseen circucmstances have delayed our decision to close guantanamo bay for indef inatly."


Few months of fighting an uphill battle there... hey... maybe a nice, out of the way place to send all these psychotic folks who ended up in afghanistan from god knows where would be a good thing. You know, like some sort of prison we can whip up on an island thats not connected to the US mainland... like at a military base or something, boy I wish we had a place like that so we could deal with these people...


o wait, we've already got one, and I bet we can get away with blaming bush while we continue to use it.

Believing in change in american policy after switching from the repubs to the dems is a lot like believing you'll see jesus when you die. Sure, it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, but you end up in the same box, getting eaten by worms. I could be wrong, he might end the wars and close the prison.

I just find it very, very unlikely.

Hmm...yes...closing a prison is so easy, they should have done it in a day.

"Attorney General Eric Holder says closing the Guantanamo Bay detention facility will not be easy, but it will be done safely.

Holder visited the center in Cuba on Monday and spoke to reporters about his trip during a news conference Wednesday.

He said the process of closing the facility WITHIN A YEAR, as ordered by President Barack...."

Also, the US has no shortage of prisons.

I used to think that there was no difference between democrats and republicans...
that is until George Bush Junior stole the election from Al Gore.
It wasn't that singular incident, of course, but the next few years that really solidified things...

I imagine withdrawing troops from the war in Iraq is very simple. I mean, they should be out of there but now, what's taking them so long? Just leave! Slowpokes!!!

ahh.

Also,
Afghanistan is extremely unstable and full of terrorists.

 

[yzzlthtz]

I always hated the argument that they're not American Citizens so they shouldn't have the same rights. They're still fucking Human beings and should be treated as such.

Try telling them that when they capture you

we have more chance of being captured by Cuban drug cartels than any "terrorists". America seems to have been quelling this distant overseas threat, while Cartel members have set up shop in Arizona and have started grabbing random ransom victims in Tucson.

 

[Giovanto]

Something I'd like to point out with one of the above comments is that doing harm to POWs is very strictly against laws and general war practices. We complain on how Saddam tortured POWs and broke the "Rules of War" and yet we do it ourselves.

Once again, closing it is a good idea. Its just our version of a Nazi camp. We are only provoking hostility torward the US and proving our enemies and critics right.

 

[Ghost]

good choice...

 

[SinfulKnight]

Maybe Harald and Kumar will get a Fair trial now.

 

[fix-the-spade]

Also,
Afghanistan is extremely unstable and full of terrorists.

Nevermind that, it's full of Afghans, they seem to love a good fight.
Since 1900 Afghanistan has been at war with
Itself
Pakistan (Stalemate)
Itself
Itself (again)
Soviet Union (Afghans win)
Itself
The Taliban (who as an entity originated in Pakistan, Afghans lose)
Itself (Afghans fight back againat the Taliban, until 2001)
Itself+United Nations (2001-present day)

Quite how anyone thought they could just march in and affect change is beyond me, the country spent most of the last century fighting wars against larger, better equipped armies, or itself if said armies were away licking their wounds.

Must be the thin air up there.

 

[kawligia]

If he wants to change the actions that are taken there, so be it. If there are some people there that shouldn't be there and he wants to let them go, so be it.

But there is no reason to shut down an operating facility just to relocate all of the people who DO need to be locked up as a symbolic geusture.

 

[MortisLegio]

fine close it... where ya going to put them. There not Americans (Not american prisons), no country will take them, and we cant send them home (I.E.D. more troops). so closing the base is a good idea because...

 

[bue519]

I can understand why he would do this but is it really a good idea? I mean we gain very useful information from torturing prisoners that save American lives. People can make the argument about it being a violation of the Constitution. But they are not American citizens so should they have those right? So is it a good idea? or a bad one?

Just wanted to ask all of y'all intelligent people out there.

Well, torturing people is probably not the best way to get information out of people. I mean if your threatening me with torture, I'll be the Queen of England if you want. It would be better if the US tried to actually treat them like people when trying to get info, not punching bags.