Again, third wave feminism=/=the entire feminist movement. You can keep repeating your no-true-scotsman fallacy but that is all it will be....a fallacy.Moonlight Butterfly said:
Mary Daly is just as much of a feminist as Gloria Steinem.
Poll: So I found this "feminist" site
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Mary Daly is just as much of a feminist as Gloria Steinem.
If they don't believe in equality then yeah they aren't feminists...-.- and I explained earlier why it's not a 'no true scotsman' fallacy.Helmholtz Watson said:
Repeating simple logic is so much fun!
Uhh... kay. That's a stupid thing that somebody said, but it's nothing new. People say despicable things online all the time.
A lot of them even go so far as to say that regular intercourse with a man & women is rape...axlryder said:
...amusingly specific to the context...
Sorry to you no-true-scotsman types, but all of these are Feminists. Radical ones sure, but still utilized by feminism the world over...
Robin Margon; prominent feminist author and member of the American Woman's Movement.
Andrea Dworkin; prominent feminist author (deceased). Books still being used by the feminist movement and women's studies today.
Ti-Grace Atkinson; feminist author, member of "The Feminists" group.
Sheila Jeffreys; feminist author, professor in Political Science at the University of Melbourne in Australia.
Catherine MacKinnon; feminist scholar, professor of law.
Judith Levine; feminist author.
Cheryl Clarke; graduate faculty of the Rutgers University Department of Women and Gender Studies and the Director of Diverse Community Affairs and Lesbian/Gay Concerns. She presently serves as Dean of Students on the Livingston Campus at Rutgers University.
Once we see the feminist movement publicly decry these women, we'll stop calling them feminists. I'm fully aware of the internal conflict of 3rd wave feminism, but you gals need to figure it out because this is the reason people are opposing the political movement.
I think you accidentally quoted me. That or you blew my comment's intentions way out of proportion. I was distinguishing the difference between "mind control blowjobs" and "teh patriarchy manifesting itself in sexual acts which brainwash teh woman folk". Still radical feminism, less pseudo-sciency sounding. No, I didn't say I agreed with it, it was just clarification. The reason I put "feminist" literature in quotes is because I've read such wacked out feminist "theory" (mostly on personal blogs of crazy people, so I guess "literature" is a bit misleading) that it doesn't sound that far out there for someone to dream it up. Not because I think many crazy misandrists don't fit in with some branch of feminist theory.DevilWithaHalo said:
Nah, I used it as a jumping point. While the blowjob comment may have simply be in jest, I just wanted to point out that there are political feminists that think much worse. Mind controlling blowjobs - blowjobs illustrating female submission to the patriarchy - all sexual activity with men is evil... rhar!axlryder said:
I quote people to reference the springboard of my reply sometimes, not to call anyone out on anything.
A womyn writes a book about a womyn in a shitty relationship and becomes a smash hit among bored womyn across the world, but offends the sensibilites of a few womyn.
[HEADING=1]OMFG IT'S THE PATRIARCHY AT WORK!!![/HEADING]
[HEADING=1]OMFG IT'S THE PATRIARCHY AT WORK!!![/HEADING]
To be fair, I'm not sure I've ever seen a notable feminist actually use the concept of legitimate mind control or something similarly fictitious in an everyday context as a talking point to be taken seriously. Though maybe they're out there. A dark room full of ominous woman petting their cats and discussing ways to eliminate the deadly mind control semen.DevilWithaHalo said:
My biggest issue with this topic is still the title: Feminist. It may only be semantics but how can a group want equality and then have a sexist name?
You keep repeating what your saying like it will somehow be true. Look it up [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Daly], Mary Daly is a feminist.Moonlight Butterfly said:
I'm guessing it's a matter of wearing like a badge of honor. People call them radical and they turn around and say, "So what if we are? We're still awesome and right about everything."Mr Cwtchy said:
That's my assumption anyway
I just wish true equalists and feminists would call out radical feminists on their destructive actions and rants. You hear from the radicals all the time, but no one stands up to rebut them. We even keep electing them into public office! If we want to shut them up, we need to actually do it.
But you know, you're only a true warrior for the cause if you suffer for the liberation. It's why so many of them are bitter; unless they're lesbians, they'll eternally be attracted to the devil himself. At least, I'm sure there's a lot of sexual repression there. It would explain a lot. Like how a guy I know acts more macho and aggressive to hide the fact that he likes My Little Pony. And possibly men. It's funny, really. My friends know I'm bi and don't care, but he puts on this show for them like they'll hate him or something. It's sad. To sum it up, I think radical feminists deny their own nature because they feel it makes them weak. And in this self-denial, they become weak.Dangit2019 said:
Oh men, they're all meat eating, corpse fuckers the lot of them. Never has a graveyard been found that didn't have a man or two and an open grave.LookAtYouHacker said:
Well, then, explain this: Why is it that feminists stand for equality while their opposite, chauvanists, stand for male superiority?Moonlight Butterfly said:
The answer is that it has more to do with the historical context than strict definitions. If both men and women had been considered equivalent in the eyes of society from the get-go, then I'd wager both feminism and chauvanism would stand for the superiority of their respective genders. The reason the feminist movement has the reputation as fighting for equality is because they started out behind.
Nowadays, that men and women are considered equals within society at large (at least on paper; the fight for equality isn't quite over yet), a subset of the feminist movement seems to have emerged that sees men as an oppressive force that will always seek to dominate women. They're still feminists, technically, but their ideas and goals don't jive with those of the larger feminist movement. Hence, "radical" feminists.
Ah, on one part you are wrong: I would banish a "triple A racism-discussion" to the "gaming" subforum. (And we had a rather extensive hitman discussion as well)NuclearShadow said:Calibanbutcher said:Feminism is not a topic for the "Off-topic" board.NuclearShadow said:I fail to see your objection on being in off-topic, this thread certainly wouldn't be worthy of falling under news nor should the discussion be limited to news worthy events.Calibanbutcher said:How is discussing the same topic over and over and over and over and over and over and over again on the "off-topic" forums attached to a site dedicated to video-gaming "supporting women's rights"?NuclearShadow said:There are extremists to any group of people feminism is not a exception to this. While all extremism should be exposed and opposed none of this is shocking at the least. I proudly call myself a feminist and I am a male, while I would never support the extreme end of it I see feminism as both a respect and equality issue. A real man has a respect for others therefor any real man must be a feminist.
Hmmm discussion and support of women's rights or the life of a single common baby animal.Nickolai77 said:I'm starting to think we should have our own sub-forum for discussing Feminism.
Or you know what?
I think women are more valuable than a cat. Things like this are a hot topic because they need to be discussed. This is something that has to happen gender equality and mistreatment issues are a real thing and are still common to this day. The only way it will ever change is if it gathers wide and constant attention. This is something all people should be exposed to and not hidden and tucked away.
This is something that doesn't just effect just women but all of us including you. So just try to bear with it. If you have any doubts that these topics need to exist here go ahead and go to the comments regarding the sexual assault that took place at the PAX minecraft party. The Escapist is no miracle exception.
How?
By spreading awareness?
Nope, the news section does that already.
By convincing others to "see the light", aka agreeing with "your" take on things ?
[sub][sub]"your" being used as a placeholder for "everyone arguing in such threads[/sub][/sub]
Anyone truly believe that arguing over the internet will ever change someone's mind?
So, I would rather save a few kittens by NOT arguing about feminism on the escapist, whilst leaving the feminism discussions to the rest of the internet, where I am quite sure many forums dedicated to sexism and the fight against it already exist.
And yes, whether you realize it or not, or perhaps refuse to accept it or not it does create awareness. Also I find no wrong in trying to send a message to others on what I believe to be right when the goal is to aid others and harm none.
While changing a persons views is hard it isn't impossible. As I grow older I still find myself evolving over issues and have changed my positions on things over time. These very forums have actually witnessed myself changing my position on a certain subject and while the discussion itself wasn't a main drive it certainly was a minor one that aided opening up the gate-way of thinking about the subject. I will never be a perfect man but I do wish to better myself and I cannot do that if I make all my behaviors and stances on issues ironclad.
But aiming at those who are ironclad isn't the goal anyways. To win over those who are undecided or young minds who need to be put on the right path. Take America and racism as a great example of this. While racism is still very present it looks pathetic compared to the terrible past and the actions that were common place. This isn't because the majority saw the light suddenly but rather people age out and die. Entire generations go away and this leaves opportunity for progress within the next. This is how society evolves over time on issues and why we often find ourselves still tackling what generations before us were.
The aim should focus on young males to sway them towards the path of respecting women and young females to teach them to NEVER see themselves as less than a man or to endure being treated like such. If you think such a thing cannot be done online you would be wrong.
I met a 13 year old kid who happened to stumble into one of my clan's servers and right away he goes straight to harassing and saying the typical rhetoric to one of our female members.
Not the stuff boys stupidly do at that age either but the stuff that is learned and passed down. Instead of banning the kid I decided to step in and talk to him, which of course lead to unpleasantry at first. But in the end I convinced him to talk to me more and we did, I shared my views and he began evolve his behavior and his views. I also learned that he was extremely disrespectful to his mother who was the single parent in his life and that changed too. He is now 19 year old a man in the US Army, respects women and is a fine example of what a man should be. I still talk and game with him to this day.
I do not take credit for his progress but I did point him in the right direction and tell him why I believe it is such and he did the rest. We should not shirk our duty as adults in guiding the youth onto a better path no matter where the opportunity arises.
It belongs with religion and politcs, since it is primarily a political issue.
And I still stand by my point, that this board has seen enough "feminism" topics already.
There were 3 topics concerning feminism/sexism/gender issues on the front page of the off-topics board just now, and in the news section there is another one being advertised to me, as is in the most commented section, plus there is ANOTHER one in the gaming forum.
yes feminism is important.
yes we need to reach the youth, but NOT BY SPAMMING THIS BOARD WITH MORE FEMINISM THREADS EACH AND EVERY DAY, but by educating them IN REAL LIFE.
you managed to change one guy one-on-omn. And kudos to you for doing so, I appreciate what you did.
But I still stand-by what I said:
On an internet forum with communications taking place in the form of anonymous messages, you will not sway a single mind, no matter how eloquent and thoughtful your posts are.
While I do agree that it spans into a political issues I would disagree that it is primarily such. Even if every government world wide came into full acceptance of gender equality and respected all of the rights women should have Feminism would still be required. It isn't just laws that are flawed, this wouldn't solve behavior and attitudes towards women. It's not like once African Americans achieved equal rights after so long of oppression that suddenly public flipped like a light switch and everyone was kind and loving to them just because the laws changed. The political agenda if anything is the minority part as nothing will truly change unless the people willfully adopt the methods of thinking over time.
So feminism threads if regarding actual political talks such as "Middle eastern country X has opened voting to women for the first time" That would be political. A topic like this however would be a random and thus off-topic discussion. It of course isn't limited to that a discussion about the Hitman game's trailer with the latex nuns that many found offensive would fit right into gaming with a feminist discussion.
If you disagree with me still, just reverse the role a bit. Imagine a AAA game with so much hype and buzz was found to have a extremely racist outlook and message upon a certain race. You wouldn't go post a thread in the political section about it. Misogyny is really no different than racism but instead of race it's gender based. It shouldn't be treated any differently.
As for minds being reached or not I cannot guarantee such but you, yourself point out the popularity of these discussions and they do clearly get a-lot of attention so I believe you are mistaken. These forums I would presume have a rather young in median age and if anything getting attention with the current trends with the youth is by far the way to go.
And as for popularity:
Who is it that reads these discussions?
People like me, that find the flame-wars amusing and those that are already interested in the subject at hand.
And I had another idea:
Maybe we should change religion and politic to "religion, politic and society" that way we could banish the feminism threads there, thos interested in them could spend their time there, the youth would be reached through the news feed
(Hitman Nuns, Borderlands 2 Girlfriend mode, Notch rage over sexual assault).
Your thoughts?
I can't read any more of this argument without pulling out my hair. I think the problem here is that you need to stop using the "buzzwords" and go with you are in a very deep and committed relationship in which, 100% of the time, one person is the dominant in the relationship and one is the submissive. Besides which, using a safeword doesn't mean necessarily that a dom/top will stop; they might just adapt what they're doing so as to not physically or emotionally hurt their partner. That doesn't mean they lose their power. And honestly, imo a good dom/top knows their partner well enough to play with those limits, and stretch them at their discretion. Doesn't necessarily mean they're bad, just that there is trust there and the lifestyle is what it is.Deviate said:
I know where you are coming from. I am attracted to that lifestyle. I have researched it, and thought about it. I dipped into it once, but that person was not to be a life partner for me. The love and trust people in this lifestyle show to their partners is indeed humbling and wonderful to see. At least to me. *shrug*
Boudica will never take you seriously because s/he has already defined those specific words in her head. They are just convenient labels, and do not mean the same thing to everyone no matter if you think they should. Besides which I'd say there's a pop version, and a lifestyle version. The two may sometimes brush by each other, and maybe in some cases they even intersect, but they are two wholly separate things.