Poll: To everyone who has ever been mad at a camper, rusher, bunnyhopper, turtler, or something similar...

[Hurr Durr Derp]

Camping is part of the Sniper class. Bunnyhopping and all else needs to fuck off.

Care to explain your motivation for quoting that post? If it's because you agree with it, can you explain why you agree with it?

I get mad at modern warfare 2 for slightly different reasons

1. I just hit you in the upper body with a .50 calibur round, impossible to survive a hit like that.

2. how are you dual-wielding shotguns? there's no way anyone could possibly pull that off.

3. with a predator missile if you get hit you die, if you dont get hit you live, there's a fine line, there's no way someone could survive a predator impact.

4. I heard my gun go off before I died, did the bullets dissappear in mid-air?

5. I was around the corner before you shot, this isn't wanted, you can't curve the bullets.

6. I let go of the bumper before I died, the grenade should have been thrown.

7. All I can see is the top of your scalp, if I can't see the end of your barrel, how are you shooting me without shooting through whatever's in front of you?

These are all valid concerns. But all of them are obvious flaws of the game, not of the players.

 

[weary]

a valid and well constructed argument... oh god yes

 

[tippy2k2]

I like to condense this sort of argument down to two sentences that really describe how too many people view online gaming.

"Cheap is what you use to beat me. Strategy is what I use to beat you."

"Why am I not using this tactic?" If I'm going to win, I'm going to win the game with honor. I'd call winning using the bs tactics a hollow victory. Sure, you won and your scorecard looks a bit better, but is it really enjoyable to not get to play the game the way it's supposed to be played? Is firing enough Grenade Launchers that you could call it an artillery strike fun (probably the first time but the 100th)?

Ah, here's the fun part. Define "honor". Now define "BS tactics". Put 50 gamers in a room, ask them to define those terms, and you'll very likely get 50 definitions. (Possibly 51; the guy in the Halo hoodie looks a little "off" to me....)

I hated it in Counter-Strike when people would bunnyhop and score headshots on me while all my shots hit their knees. Since the game sold itself as a semi-tactical shooter, I thought that jumping around like a crazed pogo-stick-weilding jackrabbit should turn your accuracy to crap. But then I adapted- instead of ducking for accuracy (as was my usual tactic) I'd simply strafe around them and peg them in the chest. A lot of times they'd come down from their jump and take the third shot of a three-round burst in the jaw. Do I still think bunnyhopping sucks? Sure. But I didn't just keep doing the same thing over and over and whine about the other guys not changing their gamestyle to suit me.

Maybe I'm wrong and gamers can't agree to a "BS Tactic" rulebook, but I defined BS Tactics as:

Tactics that there are NO defenses to unless you do the same tactic. Bunny-hopping is annoying, but beatable (aim higher when going around corners). Camping is annoying but beatable (When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not your friend). There are other tactics that are border-line BS tactics, but then there are tactics that are pretty cut and dry as BS.

Spawn-Camping is a BS tactic (I count the my "Noob-Tube artillery" under spawn-camping), you spawn, you're hit before you can move, you're dead, rinse and repeat until you rage-quit or you lose the game. Glitching is a BS tactic. If you hidden under the level because of a coding glitch and can't be killed, it's garbage. These types of tactics are something I feel everyone can be on board as being BS.

As I've said before (well, more subtle but I'll be blunt this time), the author of the article says that doing these tactics are perfectly reasonable. The "Push a button to win" example by SGT SHOCK (see page 1) is an extreme and unrealistic example, but if it occurred, the author implies that he should go right ahead and use it. You've asked a few times where this was stated (you said point out where you had said it, I'm not saying it was your opinion (although I assumed it was your opinion since you posted the article)).

From the Article:
"The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will."
"I gave him the best advice he could ever hear. I told him, "Play to win, not to do difficult moves."
"The goal is to play as excellently as possible. The goal is to win."

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

Maybe I'm wrong and gamers can't agree to a "BS Tactic" rulebook, but I defined BS Tactics as:

Tactics that there are NO defenses to unless you do the same tactic. Bunny-hopping is annoying, but beatable (aim higher when going around corners). Camping is annoying but beatable (When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not your friend). There are other tactics that are border-line BS tactics, but then there are tactics that are pretty cut and dry as BS.

Spawn-Camping is a BS tactic (I count the my "Noob-Tube artillery" under spawn-camping), you spawn, you're hit before you can move, you're dead, rinse and repeat until you rage-quit or you lose the game. Glitching is a BS tactic. If you hidden under the level because of a coding glitch and can't be killed, it's garbage. These types of tactics are something I feel everyone can be on board as being BS.

Well, obviously not everyone agrees, or else we wouldn't even have to have this discussion. At the very least, the people who use those strategy think it's ok to do so.

But that's hardly the point. The thing I keep repeating over and over again, is that such 'unbeatable' tactics are the result of bad game design. Glitches are the most obvious example, but if a game is designed so that you can never beat a spawncamper before he kills you and starts the cycle all over again, that's because the people designing the game made a big mistake. There are plenty of games that have a very effective way of making spawncamping less effective, for example by giving respawning players a short invulnerability period, by respawning in random locations, or by having a respawn zone where the enemy can't get to you. Spawn camping is the direct result of poor game design (or just poor level design), not of any individual player's actions.

As I've said before (well, more subtle but I'll be blunt this time), the author of the article says that doing these tactics are perfectly reasonable. The "Push a button to win" example by SGT SHOCK (see page 1) is an extreme and unrealistic example, but if it occurred, the author implies that he should go right ahead and use it. You've asked a few times where this was stated (you said point out where you had said it, I'm not saying it was your opinion (although I assumed it was your opinion since you posted the article)).

From the Article:
"The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will."
"I gave him the best advice he could ever hear. I told him, "Play to win, not to do difficult moves."
"The goal is to play as excellently as possible. The goal is to win."

As I've mentioned before, the article is about maximizing your chances to win at games. Hell, it's even called "Playing to Win". Of course the author tells you to do everything you can to win. And with that mindset, everything he says makes sense. But the article isn't my entire argument, I merely use it to illustrate and back up my argument. I've said again and again that it is not my intention to tell everyone that playing to win is the only (or even the best) way to play.

If you're playing to win, you will have to push that "I win" button. If you're not playing to win that's perfectly acceptable. After all, most people don't play to win even if they think they are, and they're having a lot of fun so I'd never say that they're doing it wrong. The point I'm making again and again in the hope that it'll get through, is that you shouldn't whine about players that press that "I win" button. Whine about the fact that the button exists in the first place.

Hate the game, not the player.

 

[Daffy F]

I agree with what you say.

 

[Thaius]

But I could care less, because it fun.

Couldn't

Sorry, that's just one of my massive pet hates. Same as "could of" as opposed to "could've".

YOU... ARE... MY... HERO...

No one else even notices that... I thought I was alone...

OT: I see your point, OP. I really do. I guess it's just hard to be mad at the developers when someone in Gears of War 2 displays their fearsome power to mash the B button.

However, I do disagree with the thing about games being for fun and how those who take it seriously shouldn't be playing in public games. I mean I get it, I really do: an NFL player wouldn't have the right to get angry at the other players if he goes and plays with a bunch of immature, unskilled jr. highers. But in gaming, said group of jr. highers is all we have. There are no big leagues, and there are rarely enough people that play our game of choice that we know who will take it seriously as real competition. There is no place for us to go where we are the only ones playing. So we're stuck with the place where people just play because it's fun for them, regardless of whether that's fun for others.

I like what Halo 3 did: they made an entire playlist that only played by MLG rules. This attracts those who want to play the game seriously, while also turning off those who just play for fun. If only more games did that...

 

[Ironsouled]

Tactics I'm with you. Hell my FPS tactic consists of snyping two or three people's heads off and then finding a more me friendly spot to do it again. Do I get whinged at (ALOT) for being a "cheap no skill snyper with no life" Yes. Does this mean I'm going to play like a sprayer and get my butt torn up because I'm not near as good up front (besides with a shotgun) as I am waaay back there? No. Does this mean I'm one of the douche's who walks into a wall and THEN starts sniping at you? Also no. If your good enough to find me and then kill me, I tip my hat to you. If bouncing around makes it so you can get me easier, go right ahead.
If it isn't a hack/purposefully unintended mode of gameplay (IE wall glitching) Go right ahead and use it...

But then there are the people who do use hacks and glitches and such like and use your arguement as an excuse to keep on doing the flat out idiotic crap they always do. Those I reserve the right to report/kick from my server. While the hardcore player who goes to the higher levels of skill will always have my support, there's a distance between skill and lolhacking.

 

[TheRundownRabbit]

rushing!? I hate people whp say rushing is bad, its part of the game

 

[TundraWolf]

This was a very interesting read. Thanks for sharing that link: I'll definitely check that out as soon as I can. All in all, I think I disagree with the basic gist of what it is saying, but the excerpt you gave seemed interesting, so I want to read the whole thing. Anyways, on to my response:

The term 'scrub' is often used in a derogatory way, ironically enough usually by people who are scrubs themselves, but there's nothing wrong with being a scrub. If you enjoy playing a game you're not very good at, and you have no interest in improving, that's perfectly fine. Not everyone has the skill, determination, or the time to really explore a game's tactics. There's nothing wrong with not playing to win, just as long as you don't constantly whine about players who beat you because they are willing to go as far as it takes to win.

I agree with your entire post with the exception of this paragraph. More specifically, this sentence:

If you enjoy playing a game you're not very good at, and you have no interest in improving, that's perfectly fine.

That's assuming that all "scrubs", as you call them, are bad at the games they play. I know for a fact that I fall into this category as I don't "play to win" by the standards mentioned. I play for personal fun, or to have fun with a group of friends. However, I am a rather accomplished gamer. I pride myself on my ability at certain games, and usually do well when playing online (however you wish to define "doing well").

First and foremost, however, I play to have fun. If I have fun during a session of gaming, I feel that I have won at that moment. I do not need to pursue absolute perfection to feel happiness when playing a game. I know that's not what you were talking about, and I suppose this is more a response to the excerpt than to your message. Apologies for that.

However, I completely agree with your sentiment: Even if you're not "playing to win", don't whine when someone does something you think is "cheap". Just get back at them whatever way you can. And, if you can't, then just forget them and have fun the next go-round.

Games are about having fun, after all. You only truly lose if you don't have fun with it.

 

[Olikunmissile]

Well. Bugger me. It looks like I have been a scrub for a long time. All this time I've been playing games like MW2 and MGO and I've been purposely avoiding some of the things in those games because I have been too ignorant to see the game for what it was.

Thank you for actually opening my eyes, it turns out I have a long way to go if I am ever going to improve.

 

[mattman106]

The problem with this is the fact most 'pro-gamers' come up with retarded 'tournament rules' such as no marty etc on COD yet they are the ones who write this sort of article/ bool.

 

[Lullabye]

Exploiting scrubs is so fun. A recent game that is terrible for this is Demon's Souls. Anytime I challenge a person, or they challenge me, the instant I am summoned(or vice versa) they take the time to politely bow to me. Now, sometimes I feel obligated to do the same, however, most of the time I use this easy 5 seconds to set up an anti magic field then proceed to spam gods wrath(yes it is as powerful and "cheap" as it sounds). I love scrubs. Don't go changing on me now.....

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

That's assuming that all "scrubs", as you call them, are bad at the games they play. I know for a fact that I fall into this category as I don't "play to win" by the standards mentioned. I play for personal fun, or to have fun with a group of friends. However, I am a rather accomplished gamer. I pride myself on my ability at certain games, and usually do well when playing online (however you wish to define "doing well").

First and foremost, however, I play to have fun. If I have fun during a session of gaming, I feel that I have won at that moment. I do not need to pursue absolute perfection to feel happiness when playing a game. I know that's not what you were talking about, and I suppose this is more a response to the excerpt than to your message. Apologies for that.

I think the main point is that there's a difference between good and good, if you catch my drift. You may be good as in "I can beat all of my friends and I usually win online", but as long as you're not playing to win, you're not being competitive. There's being good as in beating the people at your level, and then there's good as in actually being good at every aspect of the game. The article is mostly directed at tournament-level players (or aspiring tournament-level players), and I speak from experience that there's a significant difference between "public server good" and "tournament good". As I mentioned before in this thread, there are only two games I've ever considered myself "good" at. Does that mean I suck at all other games? I'd like to think not. It's just that to be actually good at a game takes more time and dedication than most people (myself included in most cases) are willing and able to spend on it.

I certainly see the point you're making, but I think it's more a matter of interpretation in the given context than actually saying all scrubs suck at games.

This is the kind of person that should have his writes to a keyboard to type. Anyone that attempts to bring a philosphoical look into gaming should find the nearest cliff and step off it. Also, he uses scrub, another reason for him to do that.

The fact that these glitches exist without cheating (I will stress again and again: no matter what your opinion on them is, "exploiting glitches" and "cheating" are two completely different things), combined with the fact that there were no official, enforceable rules stating that you couldn't use them, meant that those tactics were open to everyone on a public server.

And this is where all validation and credit you had seeps away, since you say that exploiting a flaw in the game is ok, since no one openly said you can't use it.

I'm sorry, but unless you're going to make an effort backing up your opinion with actual arguments rather than insults, I'm going to read that as "BAWW THAT MEAN DOO-DOO HEAD SAID I CAN'T WHINE ANYMORE, BAWWW!"

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

Well. Bugger me. It looks like I have been a scrub for a long time. All this time I've been playing games like MW2 and MGO and I've been purposely avoiding some of the things in those games because I have been too ignorant to see the game for what it was.

Thank you for actually opening my eyes, it turns out I have a long way to go if I am ever going to improve.

I'm going to ignore your sarcasm for a moment since it's a very weak way to argue a point, and point out that nowhere did I suggest that you or anyone else are supposed to be improving your game, or that everyone should be playing to win. I don't know why people keep putting those words into my mouth, but I guess it's because the only way you can make a decent argument is if your opponent is a strawman.

All I want you to do, is to stop whining about the people who do play to win. But as I said in the first post, I doubt anyone will take that advice because most gamers seem to be spoiled manchildren who love nothing more than to ***** and whine.

The problem with this is the fact most 'pro-gamers' come up with retarded 'tournament rules' such as no marty etc on COD yet they are the ones who write this sort of article/ bool.

Tournament rules are tournament rules, and they are not to be messed with. However, they're called tournament rules for a reason. Everyone who whines about tournament rules in a public server environment is just another scrub. Don't let them fool you into thinking they are 'pro gamers'. There are plenty of scrubs who think they are pro, but as long as you're playing by imaginary rules you cannot be a pro, because you're simply not playing the full game.

 

[SageRuffin]

You know, this could be why I get annihilated most of the time when our little circle of friends has a session in, say, Blazblue or Marvel vs Capcom or whatever. While what could possibly be the best of us all around generally plays to learn (a fact I'm having much trouble getting him to understand), the rest of us - specifically me and only one other - play to win, and don't concern ourselves with learning so much. To me and the other friend, learning is an inevitable by-product of the situation on hand: "huh, that didn't work", "oh, I never thought of trying that one", "ah, so that's how that works".

That said, I'm pretty hopeless, at least when it comes to fighters (save Soul Calibur, but only because I'm the only one of us who sits down and tries to analyze that game). I'm still kinda getting over that fact, and I get frustrated with myself when things don't work out like I think they should: "Wtf? I know I'm better than this!" is a phrase you may often hear from me during one of my many, many slump runs.

But that's what's fun to me, playing to win, or at the very least being able to keep up. Sure, I'm successful some times and not so most other times, but like I just said, if I can at least keep up, I'm having fun, and, ultimately, happy.

 

[Olikunmissile]

snip

There really wasn't any sarcasm there. I actually meant it. Although in hindsight I suppose it does seem a little sarcastic. My point was that I was actually somewhat of a scrub, complaining that people were doing this or that and it got me quite annoyed at the games I was playing.

But after reading that and bookmarking the website I will find myself going back there to read a lot more of it.

I suppose it's my bad for coming off as a dickhead, but there wasn't any need to bite about it either.

 

[TheGreatCoolEnergy]

But I could care less, because it fun.

Couldn't

Sorry, that's just one of my massive pet hates. Same as "could of" as opposed to "could've".

Fair enough. Deffinately is something I say a lot that doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Doktor Merkwurdigliebe]

tl;dr

I like camping and spawnkilling. I love the smell of raging nerds in the morning.